BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Hurrache

devnull wrote: »

In Dublin West dog instance there is this big claim about all buses from Tyrrelstowm going to Blanch and no bus to city centre which is incorrect as the 35 does. Do you think the politicans who go around holding placards stating differently simply have no clue about what they are objecting to or they are choosing to tell falsehoods?

You're still ignoring the fact that it's madness to have Blanchardstown centre as the hub, you're picking and choosing the points raised by politicians, not locals. Hollystown for example, nearby to Tyrrelstown, will still have no bus service.

TheChrisD wrote: »

It makes me wonder how many of the people abhorrent at the idea of using Blanch as the hub actually take the bus to get there rather than driving. Yes, the current state of the centre is a nightmare to get to by car, but on a bus along one of the many routings with bus lanes (basically every direction except from Blanch village), it's a breeze.

There's occasions in which Dublin Bus routed buses away from the centre such is the congestion it can suffer.

AlekSmart

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/humantransit/status/1042799144362885122

Walker fighting the losing battle I feel.

Sadly,it appears as if the first ever set of recommendations drawn up by a Public Transport proponent,as opposed to a group of individuals working for a generic "Consultancy" is about to be flung aside by a collection of 166 of the Worlds leading Public Transport Experts,and their multiplicity of advisers.

I really do feel that Jarrett Walker will live to rue the day he decided to accept the NTA brief,as perhaps he was under the Impression the Authority was in some way competent in the field.

I feel that in the future,the NTA's handling of the Busconnects Programme launch will be used as an illustration of how NOT to hjandle such things.

What the Anti brigade will come up with is another story entirely ?

TheChrisD

Hurrache wrote: »

There's occasions in which Dublin Bus routed buses away from the centre such is the congestion it can suffer.

If you're referring to the 70, it was also because it had to go through Blanch village to service the centre, which at peak times was a complete nightmare with the level of traffic through the village mostly caused by the N3 roundabout. The routing away from Blanch village+centre was compensated with the 270 being extended to run all day instead of stopping around 7pm.

Can't think of any other buses that have been routed away from the centre - not to mention there's also been more buses routed towards the centre since then (17a, 37).

Hurrache

39 at Christmas in the past wouldn't go in, was routed past it.

TheChrisD

Hurrache wrote: »

39 at Christmas in the past wouldn't go in, was routed past it.

Back when the buses were using the Blue entrance, yes I can remember that. But that hasn't been the case since the interchange was moved to the Yellow side, and bus lanes were extended all the way to the main exit roundabout.

hmmm

The chickens have come home to roost for years of neglect of bus passengers, including the way they were treated during the LUAS cross city fiasco. There is little trust in the competence of transport planners, and politicians have exploited this lack of trust.

There is perhaps little wrong with the plan, but that doesn't matter. People don't believe the buses will be there, they don't believe the supporting infrastructure will be put in place, they don't believe the journey times quoted and as a consequence they would prefer to hang on to what they have rather than buying a pig in a poke.

This plan will live or die based on the way it is sold to the public. "Information evenings" which will attract a small minority of customers aren't going to make much headway, particularly if the reports from this forum are anything to go on. No-one cares who Jarrett Walker is, he won't be the one getting dumped out into the rain at Liffey Valley to join a scrum of people if this plan goes ahead.

RobbingBandit

TheChrisD wrote: »

Back when the buses were using the Blue entrance, yes I can remember that. But that hasn't been the case since the interchange was moved to the Yellow side, and bus lanes were extended all the way to the main exit roundabout.

39a uses the slip road up by the crown plaza that was clogged completely multiple times last year leading up to Christmas what with the thousands of shoppers in cars queuing to get into Blanchardstown shopping centre the 39 using the village and around onto the clonsilla road dumped passengers out at power city a few times I was on it too but thats Christmas shopping for ya.

Hurrache

Yeah, that slip road has had queues backed onto the N3 on busy days, nevermind Christmas.

StreetLight

The bus lanes at Blanchardstown Centre are on private property and have no legal effect. Anybody can - and does - drive in them without any fear of prosecution.

Last Christmas, the traffic marshals were actually directing private traffic into the bus lanes, causing buses to be delayed by at least an hour trying to serve one stop.

Madness.

devnull

Hurrache wrote: »

You're still ignoring the fact that it's madness to have Blanchardstown centre as the hub, you're picking and choosing the points raised by politicians, not locals. Hollystown for example, nearby to Tyrrelstown, will still have no bus service.

The majority of the 'locals' that I have spoken to or heard speaking about these matters, have got their information from politicians and often the same politicians who have been spreading falsehoods because at the end of the day, lets face it, there is more chances of winning votes that way. These locals then raise points based on misinformation. I don't need you to validate that, I've seen it with my own eyes and people I trust have told me the same.

Why don't the politicians hand out the BusConnects brochure at the local meetings, hand out their own brochures and let the people decide? Do they not trust the people who elect them to be able to make their own mind up? Or is it because that if they gave out the official documents along with their own, it might undermine their argument somewhat and mean that they would not be able to get so many votes?

The simple fact is that if someone is holding up placards saying that Tyrrelstown residents will have to go through a connecting bus and various other slogans, you'd like to think they've actually read the plans they're demonstrating about. If they haven't, then how on earth can they have any credibility? And if they had, then they're essentially standing in front of a statement which they know to be incorrect. And if that is what the left have resorted to now, then that is a very sad indictment of the standard of politicians in our left wing parties.

Do you not think that the fact that the proposals could see many hard pressed multi-mode Dublin Commuters fares cut by up to 50% is a key part of the BusConnects offering? Why do these politicians want to leave out key aspects of the plan? Why do they want to cherry pick the parts that support their argument and make a big deal out of them but hide the parts that may be of mass benefit to constituents?

Hurrache

I can't, and won't, answer for any politician and their falsehood. I'm talking about genuine and real issues.

sharper

AlekSmart wrote: »

I feel that in the future,the NTA's handling of the Busconnects Programme launch will be used as an illustration of how NOT to hjandle such things.

You're placing the blame in the wrong hands and over emphasising the NTA's role here.

Yes they absolutely could have done things better but let's remember they're a government department rolling out a transport initiative. This isn't an episode of The West Wing with the president and his collections of aids planning out their grand vision for the United States for the next 4 years.

They made mistakes but they're far from a case study of how not to do things. Remember this plan didn't just suddenly appear, it's been in motion for a while and there was already a public survey on it. They correctly identified the Bus Network was neither fit for purpose nor fit to grow the needs of the city and they got a competent consultant to design an appropriate network. They organised a long period of public consultation along with numerous local events to explain the plan.

On the other side we have a population of populations who are literally willing to lie and misrepresent what's going on in order to advance their own careers or their own ideology. They don't care at all about the bus network and they certainly don't use it.

The NTA are restricted to reality which is complicated and difficult to explain quickly. Opponents can respond in untrue soundbites which sound good.

No plan no matter how well out can survive this.

Do you honestly believe NBRU, PBP and FF would not be doing what they're currently doing if only the NTA had done better? Of course they wouldn't. They're doing it because it benefits them to do it, they have nothing to lose and much to gain.

People can and will vote against their own self interest because someone sold them on a simplified version of reality that sounds good to them. It happens all the time and it's happening here.

Hurrache

While there's a lot of disinformation being put out there by various parties with agendas, there's a great deal of disservice painting everyone with an issue with the same broad brush. People have been known to form their own opinion, not influenced by politicians, unions or discussion boards.

Maybe people from both sides of the fence should take note instead taking a you're either with us or don't know what you're talking about stance.

sharper

Hurrache wrote: »

While there's a lot of disinformation being put out there by various parties with agendas, there's a great deal of disservice painting everyone with an issue with the same broad brush. People have been known to form their own opinion, not influenced by politicians, unions or discussion boards.

I don't think anyone is doing that but right now various parties and their agendas are dominating the conversation. This hurts everyone including those with legitimate complaints or suggestions

devnull

Hurrache wrote: »

While there's a lot of disinformation being put out there by various parties with agendas, there's a great deal of disservice painting everyone with an issue with the same broad brush. People have been known to form their own opinion, not influenced by politicians, unions or discussion boards.

Maybe people from both sides of the fence should take note instead taking a you're either with us or don't know what you're talking about stance.

The vast majority of people who I have spoke to on the matter who have the most negative view of the plans have formed their opinions based on attending a community meeting and have no idea about for example, the reduction of fares that the new system would bring, because the people who have ran the meeting have not mentioned this key part of the plans. Many of them also believe things that are completely untrue, because most of such meetings have been designed to create opposition to the plan, rather than present the plan and let the people make their own decisions. Unfortunately for many people they have seen the opposition, but haven't seen the initial plan.

The NTA have offered to supply brochures to many of these meetings which have taken place so people can get the facts straight from the horses mouth so they can see for themselves, but very few of the meetings have taken up such offering and instead have simply handed their own pamphlets out, many of which are very high in rhetoric and soundbites but little in the way of detail and omit key details of the plan such as how much money can be saved on fares, because it doesn't suit the agenda of those who have organised the meetings.

The simple fact is that the politicians who are involved in these meetings are for a large part, wanting to use them to buy votes at the next local elections. That is why they are giving a one sided view on what they think of the proposals and are declining to distribute the brochures that have been created and printed exactly for meetings like these ones, so people can see what is being proposed, see what the arguments for and against it are and make their own mind up.

hmmm

There's lots of opposition building, and very little that I can see being done to promote it. A few brochures, a website with a "news" page last updated in August, a Facebook page with a random smattering of posts, a Minister who isn't very high profile.

Government TDs are getting jittery and rightly so.

Best to move on. Everyone continues to get paid and can produce a new report which will keep them busy for another few years.

Lord Glentoran

devnull wrote: »

The vast majority of people who I have spoke to on the matter who have the most negative view of the plans have formed their opinions based on attending a community meeting and have no idea about for example, the reduction of fares that the new system would bring, because the people who have ran the meeting have not mentioned this key part of the plans. Many of them also believe things that are completely untrue, because most of such meetings have been designed to create opposition to the plan, rather than present the plan and let the people make their own decisions. Unfortunately for many people they have seen the opposition, but haven't seen the initial plan.

The NTA have offered to supply brochures to many of these meetings which have taken place so people can get the facts straight from the horses mouth so they can see for themselves, but very few of the meetings have taken up such offering and instead have simply handed their own pamphlets out, many of which are very high in rhetoric and soundbites but little in the way of detail and omit key details of the plan such as how much money can be saved on fares, because it doesn't suit the agenda of those who have organised the meetings.

The simple fact is that the politicians who are involved in these meetings are for a large part, wanting to use them to buy votes at the next local elections. That is why they are giving a one sided view on what they think of the proposals and are declining to distribute the brochures that have been created and printed exactly for meetings like these ones, so people can see what is being proposed, see what the arguments for and against it are and make their own mind up.

This is a tactic that was deployed at the planning stage of Luas - and directly lead to delays and changes in the project. Bus passengers are now getting a taste of the aggressive defence of the status quo that has been a standard tactic in the face of rail projects for years.

Stephen15

I am a strong advocate for these plans and I believe some changes should be made. I feel like these plans aren't getting through to certain people especially the politicians. I don't think people understand they can submit their suggestions as to how to improve the network. I feel a lot of politicians are looking at this through a clouded preconception to suit their agenda.

They are not too stupid to look at the plans in detail and do their job but in the case of most opposition politicians they are too ignorant to look at the benefits as they just want something to get at the government.

LeinsterDub

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155766578068342&id=642193341&ref=content_filter

TL;TD. Why hasn't the consultation that's not over factored in the feedback?

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155766578068342&id=642193341&ref=content_filter

TL;TD. Why hasn't the consultation that's not over factored in the feedback?

Only in Ireland can we have a situation where during an open consultation period, one of the biggest in the history of the state, people moan that they are not being consulted and things are being pushed through, when such things themselves, were based on another consultation in 2017!

The NTA have spent about two months holding events all around the city and have published many ways for people to give their feedback and many different types of resources, they've got the consultants to engage on twitter (which I've never seen before in Ireland) and still people say they are not being consulted.

The problem is that as a country, if we have the typical Bertie mantra, of one for everyone in the audience, everyone ends up with a half baked measure that really is trying to please so many people and ends up pleasing nobody to any great degree. Local politics in this country is so depressing.

hmmm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't think people understand they can submit their suggestions as to how to improve the network. I feel a lot of politicians are looking at this through a clouded preconception to suit their agenda.

The trouble is that people aren't interested in submitting "suggestions" through a portal to some faceless NTA official if they are trying to protect their service. They will (rightly) scream and shout at their politicians to make sure it is protected, and any local politician worth their salt will get on it immediately.

In hindsight I think a trial corridor was the way to go here, and make sure that people could see the benefit. The NTA are no match for what is about to happen.

AlekSmart

hmmm wrote: »

The trouble is that people aren't interested in submitting "suggestions" through a portal to some faceless NTA official if they are trying to protect their service. They will (rightly) scream and shout at their politicians to make sure it is protected, and any local politician worth their salt will get on it immediately.

In hindsight I think a trial corridor was the way to go here, and make sure that people could see the benefit. The NTA are no match for what is about to happen.

Devnull's above post is quite correct,the Irish Psyche does not lend itself to any understanding of,or regard for,the "Greater Good" principle,whether it be in Social or Administrative terms.

None of the broad swathe of Political wannabees,and even a few old pro's can summon up the courage to even passingly refer to the massive potential inherent in the Busconnects Plan,to future proof,or at least nod in the direction of future Public Transport needs in the GREATER Dublin Area.

Instead it's all micro focused on the ghastly intent of Official Ireland to wipe Tyrellstown,Chapelizard,Tallaght,Toberburr,Crumlin (insert townland/parish as required) off the Public Transport Map.

It is as if a large collective of people had decided to return to the notion of Georgian Dublin being the limits of connectivity,and any attempt to drag the Capitals Bus Service scope & provision be regarded as dastardly evil perversion,particularly as it's the work of a bloody Yankee IT Geek Forrener......

Civil War Politics...?....and the rest of it.

dfx-

hmmm wrote: »

The trouble is that people aren't interested in submitting "suggestions" through a portal to some faceless NTA official if they are trying to protect their service. They will (rightly) scream and shout at their politicians to make sure it is protected, and any local politician worth their salt will get on it immediately.

In hindsight I think a trial corridor was the way to go here, and make sure that people could see the benefit. The NTA are no match for what is about to happen.

The danger of BusConnects was that it got bloated with trying to be all things for all people and serve you your breakfast on board.

Maybe people aren't interested in swallowing an entire network change at once and are happy with their current services. It should not be this difficult to sell an improvement in services and a network improvement - the savage cuts of Network Direct were swallowed easier than this.

sharper

dfx- wrote: »

Maybe people aren't interested in swallowing an entire network change at once and are happy with their current services.

Not wanting the service to get worse is different to being happen with the current one. I very much understand why people are worried about their service and lack trust in the authorities to improve anything.

I have the same worry. As a daily bus user though I'm willing to give anything a shot because things are getting worse and worse over time. The cost of inaction is not obvious to most.

Also people are known to sign petitions and get in an uproar over things that don't even directly effect them. We've previously seen a petition to save a bus route signed by more people than use it.

loyatemu

It's the same as the 10-minute dart fiasco. The changes are aimed at new users: get people out of their cars, increase capacity etc. Which is great.

But existing users mostly use the same 2 buses/trains each day. Extra services, higher frequencies, better connections and whatnot are meaningless to existing users if their existing journeys are going to be slower or less convenient.

Therefore existing users protest. And notional "new" users do not lobby in favour of the plans.

sharper

loyatemu wrote: »

It's the same as the 10-minute dart fiasco. The changes are aimed at new users: get people out of their cars, increase capacity etc. Which is great..

There are improvements for existing users - improved journey times, better frequency, better reliability and a new fare. The NTA hasn't really emphasised that though.

Where Jarret Walker does have a bit of a blind spot is that he's very focused on creating a good all day service that's as useful to as many people as possible. Bus Connects is therefore not focused on people's daily commute and in a lot of cases is neutral or worse to existing commutes even to areas where the bus service is overall better.

Qrt

Does anyone actually feel like emigrating? Getting around Dublin makes me so furious most of the time and I've always felt like I'd be gone if this plan doesn't go through.

Cookie_Monster

PBP spreading misinformation in DL
https://www.facebook.com/peopleb4profit/videos/vb.574029596021905/1375759299235381/?type=2&theater

n!ghtmancometh

.

Sad fact is that as long as people like him can whip up a moronic crowd, long term plans like bus connects have no chance.

CeilingFly

May 2017
When Bus Connects was launched in May 2017, Minister for Transport Shane Ross said it would “transform Dublin’s bus system in a fundamental way”, making it almost synonymous with “speed, punctuality, reliability and convenience”.

Sept 2018
Minister for Transport Shane Ross told a residents’ association meeting in his constituency on Wednesday evening he had nothing to do with the BusConnects plan .


What an effin plonker