BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

salmocab

Qrt wrote: »

I can see the issue the people of Edenmore would have with the plan, being asked to get used to the interchange option is one thing, but if the connecting bus were to be only every 30 mins, i'd be annoyed too.

My local bus is the same we’re losing a direct link to the city, unfortunately people won’t believe in this until it happens and is working. If it happens.

n!ghtmancometh

Walker sounds fairly deflated in this article he's published on his site, can't blame him really. The way NTA have handled busconnects PR wise has been an absolute disaster that has led the likes of the NBRU and PBP gain a foothold with their misinformation.

https://humantransit.org/2018/09/why-your-bus-network-may-never-improve.html

AndrewJRenko

hmmm wrote: »

The trouble is that people aren't interested in submitting "suggestions" through a portal to some faceless NTA official if they are trying to protect their service. They will (rightly) scream and shout at their politicians to make sure it is protected, and any local politician worth their salt will get on it immediately.

In fairness, it is the politicians who are doing the screaming, and actively stirring things up.

salmocab wrote: »

Shane Ross is everything wrong with politics in this country rolled up into one obnoxious package. He was a good spokesman when not in government and as soon as he got in he went against everything he had said beforehand.

Nah, he was the same obnoxious chancer all along - just most people failed to see through the BS until after voting him into power.

fly_agaric

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nah, he was the same obnoxious chancer all along - just most people failed to see through the BS until after voting him into power.

Have said this before (I think...) but believe he has no interest in the role whatsoever. Appears to want to be the minister for justice. FG were never going to let one of their independent "hanger-ons" have that one. It is a powerful & high profile position the big names in their party would covet. The leading politicians in our main parties seem consider transport (oh and "tourism" and "sport", that goes well together) to be a joke, so was safe to let an independent run it.

In some ways his lack of interest is probably justified...the usage of busconnects by party politicians as a sort of toy issue/trial balloon that they can float to build profile for a Dail run also probably shows the contempt they have for transport in Dublin and how unimportant they think it really is in the grand scheme of things.

AndrewJRenko

fly_agaric wrote: »

Have said this before (I think...) but believe he has no interest in the role whatsoever. Appears to want to be the minister for justice. FG were never going to let one of their independent "hanger-ons" have that one. It is a powerful & high profile position the big names in their party would covet. The leading politicians in our main parties seem consider transport (oh and "tourism" and "sport", that goes well together) to be a joke, so was safe to let an independent run it.

If he was Minister of Justice, he would probably be spending all his time moaning about the buses. It is so much easier to be a 'hurler on the ditch' telling everyone else what they should be doing than to actually do a decent job yourself.

fly_agaric

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If he was Minister of Justice, he would probably be spending all his time moaning about the buses. It is so much easier to be a 'hurler on the ditch' telling everyone else what they should be doing than to actually do a decent job yourself.

You may be right!:pac:
I can see it now, perhaps a rant that busses should get off the roads and the bus lanes into town should really be repainted as ministerial "zil" lanes...(edit - for senior guards, politicians and judges and the like)

I'm going by the fact that his ideas on how judges should get appointed in Ireland and the fate of closed Garda stations seem to be the main things he's gotten himself in the news for.
Before his current political career I wonder did he ever express any opinions on transport issues at all (never bothered with his books or journalism)?

john boye

The irony with him is that if/when he does eventually lose the transport role he'll probably go back to criticising CIE all the time and telling us how it should be run. Absolute buffoon.

Qrt

bobby.toddger wrote: »

Finally, a Google will show the Jared walker plan down in New Zealand, read the comments underneath the stories in news paper/websites, they HATE it, it has been a disaster, thats what awaits Dublin, and i predict BC will be dead and buried by January.

You really can't compare Dublin and Auckland. Auckland is your typical "new world" city. Low density, detached houses in the suburbs (LA style), seemingly build around the automobile etc. A quick google showed the pop. density of Auckland to be around 1,500, while Dublin is around 3,500-4,500 depending on what you define as Dublin. One article I looked at said that a 20-40 minute walk to a bus stop was common in the Auckland suburbs. Nowhere in Dublin is like that.

Shedite27

Jaysus Dermot O'Leary, I mean "Bobby", you're having some morning. Register at 11am and 7 posts so far stating:
- Bus drivers and NBRU are good
- NTA are bad
- Busconnect is gonna be a disaster
- GoAhead running Dublin bus routes will be a disaster
- self driving cars will never happen
- privatization will just mean price hikes

schemingbohemia

bobby.toddger wrote: »

Its all very simple, but you are blinded by DB hate.
Walker is on record as having worked close with the "experts" in the NTA. {anyone care to guess who they are, none worked previously in transport}
You dont have to like it but DB drivers know much more than you believe, frontline staff know exactly where the problems are and the solutions, not a single driver was given so much as a few questions to answer to as to gain a real knowledgeable view point.{i suppose no need when you have NTA experts}
NBRU every week have drivers complaining about problems, drivers dont like it when passengers get on bus and blow a fuse, so they want solutions to these problems, NBRU knows exactly how to rile up the public.{ NTA anonymous, already hiding, dont want to be tainted with this disaster in the making}

Finally, a Google will show the Jared walker plan down in New Zealand, read the comments underneath the stories in news paper/websites, they HATE it, it has been a disaster, thats what awaits Dublin, and i predict BC will be dead and buried by January.

Dublin Bus were supposed to consult the drivers but didn't, not NTA or Jarret Walker's fault.

CatInABox

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Dublin Bus were supposed to consult the drivers but didn't, not NTA or Jarret Walker's fault.

Yes, Walker consulted with the NTA, Dublin Bus, and members of the local authorities. I find it strange that bobby refers to the experts in the NTA as "experts", it reminds me of Micheal Gove saying that the "UK had had enough of experts".

MJohnston

I've launched an unofficial BusConnects journey planner today:

https://twitter.com/yimbydublin/status/1044239031532498944

It's all mostly human-powered as there's no way to programmatically do this sort of thing just yet. Check it out!

Hurrache

Discussion about it, including mumbling trade union (NBRU), on Matt Cooper on Today FM at the moment.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

I've launched an unofficial BusConnects journey planner today:

https://twitter.com/yimbydublin/status/1044239031532498944

It's all mostly human-powered as there's no way to programmatically do this sort of thing just yet. Check it out!

By the way, still looking for people who wouldn't mind helping solving a journey puzzle or two with this. PM me if you're interested.

Zebra3

tretorn wrote: »

The users of the 27A which runs from Edenmore directly to town are complaining that they will with bus connect have to get off at the Artane roundabout and change to another bus.

I have to say I wouldnt be too pleased if I was using this bus. Its bad enough queuing and then being shoved aside by teens but at least when you get on the bus with a direct route you know you can sit down until you are home. Its hard work climbing to the upstairs especially if you are elderly or have children, having to do this once and then get off the bus five minutes later and do it again would make you take your car.

Its the elderly and disabled who will suffer most if their direct routes to the city centre go.

Never seen anyone being. shoved aside by teens or any other age demographic while getting on a bus.

Chris_5339762

Saw my first very blatant "save our buses" sign in Lucan today. Utterly ridiculous.

Qrt

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Saw my first very blatant "save our buses" sign in Lucan today. Utterly ridiculous.

I think Lucan is one of the areas that, aside from the crap proposed weekend frequency, is benefitting MASSIVLY from BusConnects.

KC8

Having just completed my submission under the consultation, I urge everyone who hasn’t yet done so, to visit the busconnects website and make a submission before the end of the week.

I never thought there would be such misinformation offered by Trade Unions and politicians. Unfortunately and with the benefit of hindsight, I think the questionnaire that exists online might cause the NTA major headaches.

The questions are primarily designed around an assessment of whether the proposals are good or bad. You aren’t automatically asked to explain why you have arrived at your view. If you were asked to explain your assessment, one could weed out the submissions that were based on the misinformation - and largely discard them.

Instead, the NTA might get a huge number of “bad” assessments based on misplaced assumptions/understandings and it will be very difficult for the NTA to address them. If they represent a very large percentage or number, it might mean the whole project is over before it begins.

Make sure to submit!!

dashcamdanny

KC8 wrote: »

Having just completed my submission under the consultation, I urge everyone who hasn’t yet done so, to visit the busconnects website and make a submission before the end of the week.

I never thought there would be such misinformation offered by Trade Unions and politicians. Unfortunately and with the benefit of hindsight, I think the questionnaire that exists online might cause the NTA major headaches.

The questions are primarily designed around an assessment of whether the proposals are good or bad. You aren’t automatically asked to explain why you have arrived at your view. If you were asked to explain your assessment, one could weed out the submissions that were based on the misinformation - and largely discard them.

Instead, the NTA might get a huge number of “bad” assessments based on misplaced assumptions/understandings and it will be very difficult for the NTA to address them. If they represent a very large percentage or number, it might mean the whole project is over before it begins.

Make sure to submit!!

Please post proof of all the NBRU misinformation.

Evil_g

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Please post proof of all the NBRU misinformation.

First item when I google "NBRU Bus Connects":

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/busconnects-nbru-representative-slams-appalling-15175718

Thomas O'Connor from the National Bus and Rail Union told Dublin Live that Dubliners "don't want to interchange".

...

He said: "People want to get on a bus in one place and get off at another, they don't want to interchange. It's not in the Irish make-up, it's not in the society of people.

"Dublin Bus introduced cross city routes in 2009 and 2012 and they were a great success. They were launched from Tallaght out to Malahide and from Finglas down to Neilstown.

"And they were a success because people didn't have to interchange. This whole plan is based on interchange and having to get off one bus and maybe two buses.

"The convenience is what makes a public transport system work.

...

According to Thomas, along all the routes a number of hospitals and schools will have no direct bus services.

Estates across the capital that have had buses through their community for decades will also see their regular services disappear.

He continued: "Hospitals are no longer are having direct bus services. Schools have no buses. Estates with services for 30 and 40 years will now have no service.

"The first thing you'd look at when you're drawing this plan would be - have all the schools got an express service? Have all the hospitals, the workplaces?

"For example in Blanchardstown there's 2,000 workers in IBM and a bus is being pulled out of there.

"Having to make your way into town to get a local bus to IBM, that's just ludicrous.

"There's currently three bus routes down at Tallaght Square, there's proposals for 11. There's no space there. It just physically won't fit the buses getting in and out.

"All of Killinarden, Old Bawn, Seskin View, Tymon North - all their bus services are gone.

"If you're in Killinarden you get a bus up to Citywest Shopping Centre there's no direct bus planned between Killinarden and that shopping centre.

"There's a 19% reduction in direct buses from Tallaght to town. That's alright going from Tallaght to town in the mornings, but when you're going back in the evening - that's when you're going to feel the impact."

...

He also said that the main spines in the planes are an "untruth" and that frequency and capacity will fall across the network.

He said: "These high frequency, flagship spines are also an untruth. At points there's a 900 hundred passenger per hour reduction in capacity. How is that an increase?

"On the Malahide Road, there's a reduction of 25%. That's replicated right across the map.

"Up in Ballinteer, a 800 pupil school will have no bus services. It's affecting the elderly, people who work.

"The outlying areas - Dunboyne, Skerries, Lusk, Rush - all their direct buses are gone.

"Skerries direct bus currently goes two times an hour into town, and the local bus in the new plan will go two times an hour - but they'll be left off at the Pavilion in Swords.

"The bus at the Pavilion in Swords is the A3, which will go four times an hour. That's replacing the 41 which is seven times an hour.

"So people on a same frequency service then have to scramble on to a less frequent service."

...

"He's never done a Victorian, Georgian city. Nobody actually planned our transport over the years. Clondalkin was built, Ballymun was built, Adamstown. We spread out and the buses followed.

"He said that's not efficient. You can't tell half the people to move because the buses "aren't efficient".

"If you look at the city centre, the plan presupposes the ban on College Green. Some of his spines goes through the bottle neck in College Green.

"There'll be 50% less buses going up O'Connell Street. Where people want to go is O'Connell Street's area, into Penneys and onto Henry Street."

A veritable tsunami of LIES. So many that it's impossible to counter.


The very first, and biggest, lie is pretending to represent and speak for the travelling public.

MJohnston

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Please post proof of all the NBRU misinformation.

Please read back in the thread where much of this has been discussed already. Perhaps you already knew that though?

LeinsterDub

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Please post proof of all the NBRU misinformation.

On on their biggest lies is that BusConnects is about privatisation

cgcsb

The privatization narrative has been picked up by the rag media.
Headlines like 'fear of further privatisation'

Headlines like this imply that there has already been some privatization, a complete non fact in the first instance.

davetherave

For a start on record with a Joint Oireachtas Committee

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_tourism_and_sport/2018-07-18/6/

Just a few bits in this one,

outer suburban areas have in the main, under these proposals, had their direct services to the city replaced with local services. Dunboyne, Blessington, Skerries, Saggart and Newcastle are just some examples of the highly populated places that will be isolated.

Dunboyne, currently served by the 70 which runs every 60 minutes, is being replaced by a bus that runs, at worst, every 20 minutes to Blanchardstown SC, where users can change onto any 'B' bus running every 5 minutes to get in to the City Centre and on out to UCD.

Blessington, the current 65 is proposed to be replaced with a 244.
the 65 currently at midday of a weekday runs one service every two hours into the City Centre.
Proposed change makes the route an a worst hourly connection to Tallaght where people can change to the Luas or the A2/D2 frequent route. This is supplemented by a peak hours service 344 which reduces it to a connection with Tallaght every 30 minutes.


Skerries will have an at worst 30 minute frequency to Swords where they can connect to the high frequency A4.

Saggart has the 69, the only change is that front of the bus will now say 63. Saggart is also gaining the new connection the W8, running Tallaght - Citywest - Saggart - Celbridge -Maynooth. Why is the NBRU opposing a plan that will allow students from, in their own words, working class communities like Tallaght, Saggart, Rathcoole the opportunity to have Maynooth University as an option for their studies?

The 68 in newcastle has a midday frequency of every 60 minutes, this is being replaced with an at worst 30 minute frequency to the Red Cow for Luas connections.

Now I don't claim to be an infrastructure megamind but if I wanted to "isolate" Dunboyne I would scrap all of their bus routes and tell them to get the train, not increase the frequency of the buses. Like I said though, I don't have the knowledge of how bus infrastructure works like Mr O'Leary clearly has.

The right Honourable Mr O'Leary continues with

working class communities like Crumlin, Drimnagh, Inchicore, Coolock, Tallaght, Saggart, Rathcoole and Cabra will, under these proposals, suffer far more than communities in more so-called affluent areas.

You can see from the screenshots in the link below that these areas are gaining more connections, and more employment opportunities in 60 minutes than they have now.
https://imgur.com/a/BBqVsjm

The plethora of local services suggested in the plan will use 40 new 28-seat single deck buses.

The single decker buses are to be used on the Orbital route that follows the two canals and has restrictions due to bridge height. You'd hope that the head of the bus and rail union would understand that double decker buses tend to be quite tall.

ED E

As above, not that the DB fanboys will listen, O'Leary is talking pure and utter bollox.

Question is why. Maybe its because its increasing productivity. Can't have that without a big fat payoff.

ThunbergsAreGo

davetherave wrote: »

For a start on record with a Joint Oireachtas Committee


Skerries will have an at worst 30 minute frequency to Swords where they can connect to the high frequency A4.

so no direct connection and a longer journey time with a changeover?

Shedite27

naughtb4 wrote: »

so no direct connection and a longer journey time with a changeover?

Why are you assuming longer journey time? It's taking half empty busses off the road so all those clogged bus lanes in around Drumcondra clear up - faster journey to the city IMO.

Also, Skerries has a direct train route and the Fingal Express which take 40 mns less than the Dublin Bus route anyway

ED E

The only reason to get the bus to Skerries is St Stephen's' day. Otherwise train.

SG317

It's quite interesting that a lot of people seem to deny that Bus Connects will lead to future privitisation. In order for a narrative to gain attention it has to be somewhat believable. Future privitisation is very believable and the Bus Connects plan will make the Bus Network more profitable. This is simply due to the fact, that people on less popular routes will be moved onto more profitable routes which are the spine routes. This will inturn decrease the number of unprofitable routes as they will be reduced to the bear minimum, with people instead being forced onto the already at capacity Luas, Dart, Commuter Lines and busy bus routes. So future privitisation is very much a threat and I think people need to stop being so dissmisive of the idea that Bus Connects is partially about privitisation.

Stephen15

SG317 wrote: »

It's quite interesting that a lot of people seem to deny that Bus Connects will lead to future privitisation. In order for a narrative to gain attention it has to be somewhat believable. Future privitisation is very believable and the Bus Connects plan will make the Bus Network more profitable. This is simply due to the fact, that people on less popular routes will be moved onto more profitable routes which are the spine routes. This will inturn decrease the number of unprofitable routes as they will be reduced to the bear minimum, with people instead being forced onto the already at capacity Luas, Dart, Commuter Lines and busy bus routes. So future privitisation is very much a threat and I think people need to stop being so dissmisive of the idea that Bus Connects is partially about privitisation.

Privatisation isn't on the cards. Tendering routes is not privatisation. If it were about privatisation why would DB be included in drawing up the network. If it were about privatisation then the current network would be gone and private operators would draw up the network themselves.

If you're talking about tendering that could happen even if the network is not changed. As you may be aware Go-Ahead have already won the tender to 24 Dublin bus routes which are too remain unchanged.