BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

ThunbergsAreGo

Marlay wrote: »

That does make sense. But, as a 9 to 5 commuter, it does make it difficult to view the plan positively. For Celbridge, where I am, the general approach seems to be, if you want to commute go get the train. Which is fine, as long as we see corresponding improvements in the rail services.

Its the same view that seems to be pushed for North of Swords (or use a Private Service) but the capacity (or the potential of seat that is an issue for some people) just isn't there

_Kaiser_

Sam Russell wrote: »

A service that is infrequent is OK for going somewhere requiring a swap to a frequent service, but not so good for coming back. I could decide to go somewhere and look up the time of the infrequent service, but not so easy coming back as a few minutes late caused by a delay somewhere and I miss my connection.

Commuters would know the connection times I would think.

I had exactly this experience for years where I'd be left stranded mid-trip because the connecting service didn't run/ran early or the initial link was late.

Result is you end up stuck somewhere with no choice but to flag down an expensive taxi (assuming you're not on a social trip with time to burn).

I know this is an unpopular opinion here among the BC advocates but I have extremely little faith in the operators to be able to run properly timed and interchanging services even if BC was implemented as proposed - which it won't be.
The final version will be a watered-down piecemeal solution that will likely make things worse than they are now. Leo's statement as quoted on the last page pretty much confirms it.

The problem is that buses and public transport in general (with the possible exception of LUAS) has been and continues to be viewed by most as the option for those with no other choices. This affects investment, priority, enforcement action, and shows no signs of changing.

The truth is that as much as the Government and IDA might like to position Dublin as a modern, vibrant and youthful city equivalent to any of the major spots in Europe.. the reality is that it's a sprawling suburban mess whose core hasn't really changed in decades.

Unless you change those attitudes and that reality first, ambitious plans like BC will NEVER succeed in Dublin(/Ireland).

LeinsterDub

naughtb4 wrote: »

Its the same view that seems to be pushed for North of Swords (or use a Private Service) but the capacity (or the potential of seat that is an issue for some people) just isn't there

Ironically Bus Connects could be one of the best thing to happen to Irish Rail since the creation of the DART

CatInABox

naughtb4 wrote: »

Its the same view that seems to be pushed for North of Swords (or use a Private Service) but the capacity (or the potential of seat that is an issue for some people) just isn't there

They're almost certainly going to fix this in the next phase, if it gets to that. The 33X is by far the most commented on service in the entire BusConnects consultation, at least according to one of the Human Transit guys.

cgcsb

SG317 wrote: »

It's quite interesting that a lot of people seem to deny that Bus Connects will lead to future privitisation. In order for a narrative to gain attention it has to be somewhat believable. Future privitisation is very believable and the Bus Connects plan will make the Bus Network more profitable. This is simply due to the fact, that people on less popular routes will be moved onto more profitable routes which are the spine routes. This will inturn decrease the number of unprofitable routes as they will be reduced to the bear minimum, with people instead being forced onto the already at capacity Luas, Dart, Commuter Lines and busy bus routes. So future privitisation is very much a threat and I think people need to stop being so dissmisive of the idea that Bus Connects is partially about privitisation.

That's a delusional conspiracy theory in fairness. One perpetuated by the hard left. With a 90 minute fare across all modes, the NTA couldn't detangle what routes are 'profitable' and which ones are not even if it tried. If anything bus connects will prevent privatisation.

If, in the future, privatisation is on the cards, then protest against that. At the moment it wouldn't even be possible. Making the bus system more profitable is of course a symptom of dramatically increasing ridership.

Spanish Eyes

Now I know this ain’t Dublin. But I’m on a little break in Estepona southern Spain and the bus goes along the A7 from point A to B no diversions at all, straight along the road every 30 minutes from Estepona to Marbella a very reliable service and cheap as chips. Big single decker bendy buses

But what I noticed was the Distance between stops, minimum one km and often a little more. People know where to go and just Q.

The only issue I have is dwell time. All cash payments, but I hear the bus co. is working on that.

Anyway just thought I’d make you all jealous ha ha. Sorry the distance between stops on DB has to be extended I think, along with introduction of flat fares. I nearly fell into my sun cream bottle when I read that a separate short distance fare is being considered. NO, please. No.

At home I use the N4 bus corridor and it is brilliant. Others are not so lucky, but hopefully things will improve soon for all users.

Sorry didn’t mean to be flippant about this very important issue whilst on a holiday. But am following the thread.

Brian CivilEng

As a regular user of two Dublin buses to get to my office, I 100% think in door to door time. I'm currently averaging about 1hr 10mins for a 10km trip.

Frequency is extremely important to me. I base my route choice on what would happen if I miss my bus, so I end up taking a different route to and from work. I force the second mode to be the more frequent. My general rule of thumb is if I don't accept a transfer wait time of twice the frequency, its not usable. If the buses actually ran on schedule this wouldn't be a problem. They seldom do.

Bus Connects works for me as the orbital route part of my trip is being made more direct and more frequent than currently. So on that basis I am supporting this. There is no reason why my journey should involve the city centre, yet sometimes that 6km detour actually means a quicker trip time in total. I see Bus Connects as fixing that.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Now I know this ain’t Dublin. But I’m on a little break in Estepona southern Spain and the bus goes along the A7 from point A to B no diversions at all, straight along the road every 30 minutes from Estepona to Marbella a very reliable service and cheap as chips. Big single decker bendy buses

But what I noticed was the Distance between stops, minimum one km and often a little more. People know where to go and just Q.

The only issue I have is dwell time. All cash payments, but I hear the bus co. is working on that.

Anyway just thought I’d make you all jealous ha ha. Sorry the distance between stops on DB has to be extended I think, along with introduction of flat fares. I nearly fell into my sun cream bottle when I read that a separate short distance fare is being considered. NO, please. No.

At home I use the N4 bus corridor and it is brilliant. Others are not so lucky, but hopefully things will improve soon for all users.

Sorry didn’t mean to be flippant about this very important issue whilst on a holiday. But am following the thread.

A dense urban environment like Dublin is of course going to have more frequent stops than a bus service to Marbella

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

A dense urban environment like Dublin is of course going to have more frequent stops than a bus service to Marbella

Yes I know that but the distance between stops in Dublin is often ridiculously close. There is a huge catchment on the journey I mentioned both commuters working along the route and school kids and tourists. People seem to manage without a stop every 100 m or so! Also there is no other PT alternative like tram or train either.

Kh1993

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ironically Bus Connects could be one of the best thing to happen to Irish Rail since the creation of the DART

Wow, that is some hyperbole. Irish Rail can't currently handle peak time loads, so how is dumping North County Dublin commuters from the 33x, Malahide buses, Howth Road buses onto packed Darts and commuter trains going to help?

Connecting buses and trains is, in theory, a brilliant idea, but in practice, the capacity isn't there (and let's be honest, there is no future capacity in and out of Connolly until something major happens) on peak time trains, and the frequency isn't good enough (30/40 mins) on the local routes connecting with darts.

Hurrache

abitofacomedian wrote: »

As a regular user of two Dublin buses to get to my office, I 100% think in door to door time. I'm currently averaging about 1hr 10mins for a 10km trip.

Frequency is extremely important to me. I base my route choice on what would happen if I miss my bus, so I end up taking a different route to and from work. I force the second mode to be the more frequent. My general rule of thumb is if I don't accept a transfer wait time of twice the frequency, its not usable. If the buses actually ran on schedule this wouldn't be a problem. They seldom do.

Bus Connects works for me as the orbital route part of my trip is being made more direct and more frequent than currently. So on that basis I am supporting this. There is no reason why my journey should involve the city centre, yet sometimes that 6km detour actually means a quicker trip time in total. I see Bus Connects as fixing that.

A distance and trip like yours you're better off cycling. An average runner would run it quicker going easy.

ThunbergsAreGo

Kh1993 wrote: »

Wow, that is some hyperbole. Irish Rail can't currently handle peak time loads, so how is dumping North County Dublin commuters from the 33x, Malahide buses, Howth Road buses onto packed Darts and commuter trains going to help?

Connecting buses and trains is, in theory, a brilliant idea, but in practice, the capacity isn't there (and let's be honest, there is no future capacity in and out of Connolly until something major happens) on peak time trains, and the frequency isn't good enough (30/40 mins) on the local routes connecting with darts.

That it exactly, there is no more capacity at Connolly

Read the 10 minute dart thread, there is no soace for these previous bus users to get in the dart

Brian CivilEng

Hurrache wrote: »

A distance and trip like yours you're better off cycling. An average runner would run it quicker going easy.

Probably, but I don't think cycling is for me.

Shedite27

Seems a lot of people are just looking at this as "how does it affect my current commute". Fair enough I suppose, but the NTA really have to start marketing this as "look at all the other places you can now gon on the bus too"

ThunbergsAreGo

Shedite27 wrote: »

Seems a lot of people are just looking at this as "how does it affect my current commute". Fair enough I suppose, but the NTA really have to start marketing this as "look at all the other places you can now gon on the bus too"

But that is when most people use public transport 10 times a week.

It is going to be their largest use case

donvito99

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Crushing cars parked illegally in bus lanes, on the spot, would concentrate minds wonderfully.

This might be one of those things that could be crowd funded.

On a serious note however, issues of enforcement might be bypassed by moving bus lanes to the centre of the road. Motorists are less likely to ditch their cars there.

Where space is limited, small island platforms (staggered.offset from each other) with access from footpaths by a raised pedestrian crossings to calm traffic and force motorist/cyclists to yield.

So Rathmines Road would have a dedicated inbound and outbound bus lane in the a.m. and p.m. rush, for example. Bus/Cyclist conflicts would also be reduced on this busy stretch.

xper

A friend of mine in UCD (who I may have bored to tears by going on about Irish public transport on more than one occasion over beers) forwarded me the following email that was apparently sent to all UCD staff this week. A positive move! I wonder if any other large employers, especially the MNCs that have been complaining to the government about transport and housing issues impacting recruitment, have been encouraging their staff to engage in the consultation and are making their own submissions?

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX,

You will most likely be aware of the proposals to redesign the existing Dublin area bus network under the Bus Connects proposals. In summary, Bus Connects aims to get more people to more places, sooner than they currently can.

The University stands to benefit from the proposed plan as it will greatly expand access to UCD, particularly to and from the west side of the city. Additionally it will provide increased frequencies of direct buses to campus along the N11 bus corridor and directly into campus.

The public consultation process closes on Friday September 28th and the University will be making a submission on the positive impact the plan will have on its community, while also highlighting some challenges and how these relate to the University.

In addition to this submission we would like to remind all campus users that personal submissions can also be made regarding the plan and we would encourage all members of the UCD Community to take part and voice their queries, support and any concerns they may have.

If you would like to learn more about Bus Connects and what it means for you please check out the links below.
Click here for the Bus Connects homepage
Click here to view the interactive Bus Connects map where you can view current and proposed services from any Dublin area, and see how far you could travel in a given amount of time.
Click here to take the Bus Connects Public Consultation Survey
Click here to view a summary fact sheet for Bus Connects
Finally, if you wish to make a submission please email consultations@busconnects.ie

Kind Regards,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX,
Chair, Smarter Travel Working Group

Lord Glentoran

ED E wrote: »

Can't do that, we'd have no Garda cars left within a week.

They only have to do it once

Lord Glentoran

donvito99 wrote: »

This might be one of those things that could be crowd funded.

On a serious note however, issues of enforcement might be bypassed by moving bus lanes to the centre of the road. Motorists are less likely to ditch their cars there.

Where space is limited, small island platforms (staggered.offset from each other) with access from footpaths by a raised pedestrian crossings to calm traffic and force motorist/cyclists to yield.

So Rathmines Road would have a dedicated inbound and outbound bus lane in the a.m. and p.m. rush, for example. Bus/Cyclist conflicts would also be reduced on this busy stretch.

I like it - however when the Rathmines Road had trams, all it needed was a horse and cart to Banjax the service, according to Michael Corcoran’s history.

Dravokivich

cgcsb wrote: »

That's a delusional conspiracy theory in fairness. One perpetuated by the hard left. With a 90 minute fare across all modes, the NTA couldn't detangle what routes are 'profitable' and which ones are not even if it tried. If anything bus connects will prevent privatisation.

If, in the future, privatisation is on the cards, then protest against that. At the moment it wouldn't even be possible. Making the bus system more profitable is of course a symptom of dramatically increasing ridership.

The nta don't care about a route being profitable. The first batch tendered off where picked because of relatively low passenger numbers compared to other routes operated by Dublin bus.

NTA are setup to pay the operator a set charge based on performance (time table adherence / reliability/ quality), and that will have no relationship to the farebox. It's more than likely going to cost more to operate them, then will come in from them. The difference is purely on the column they put the figures into on their spreadsheet, with it o l9nger being a subvention.

If other operators are willing to fullfill the tender requirements (such as providing and running their own depot), bus connects will make it easier to privatise.

Victor

SG317 wrote: »

Future privitisation is very believable and the Bus Connects plan will make the Bus Network more profitable.

But they have said it will need more subsidy.

tom1ie

Shedite27 wrote: »

Seems a lot of people are just looking at this as "how does it affect my current commute". Fair enough I suppose, but the NTA really have to start marketing this as "look at all the other places you can now gon on the bus too"

Where people could potentially go under bus connects plays a distance second to where they have to go under bus connects.
It really doesn’t bother me if I can now go from rathfarnham to the square shopping centre or dundrum shopping centre using one bus under the new plan, if my regular 5 day a week bus no longer goes to where I want it to go.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Where people could potentially go under bus connects plays a distance second to where they have to go under bus connects.
It really doesn’t bother me if I can now go from rathfarnham to the square shopping centre or dundrum shopping centre using one bus under the new plan, if my regular 5 day a week bus no longer goes to where I want it to go.

Indeed the focus from the NTA should be your journey will be quicker due to more frequent buses, better bus lanes and in some case more direct routes avoiding meandering or avoiding the OCS area.

tom1ie

One thing I’ve noticed about the radial routes for bc is that there is a big gap between routes 12 and 13. There doesn’t seem to be any direct radial route for church town, goatstown clonskeagh and windy arbour. (I know windy arbour is serviced directly by Luas Green,but the others aren’t)

Qrt

tom1ie wrote: »

One thing I’ve noticed about the radial routes for bc is that there is a big gap between routes 12 and 13. There doesn’t seem to be any direct radial route for church town, goatstown clonskeagh and windy arbour. (I know windy arbour is serviced directly by Luas Green,but the others aren’t)

Clonskeagh: 10 and 12
Goatstown: 12
Churchtown: 14

Qrt

https://dublingazette.com/news/news-city-edition/lahart-busconnects-49273/

y i k e s

It says Lahart in the URL, but not the by-line?

tom1ie

Qrt wrote: »

Clonskeagh: 10 and 12
Goatstown: 12
Churchtown: 14

?
10 is kimmage to cc and 12 is rathfarnham to cc. Both nowhere near clonskeagh.
Again 12 is rathfarnham to cc goes nowhere near goatstown.
14 is a good bit away from church town, it goes from UCD to cc via ballsbridge.

Evil_g

Qrt wrote: »

https://dublingazette.com/news/news-city-edition/lahart-busconnects-49273/

y i k e s

It says Lahart in the URL, but not the by-line?

Much of the public were justifiably dubious, asking: “Who exactly are the NTA and who are they answerable to?”

J***s F*****g C****t.

Qrt

tom1ie wrote: »

?
10 is kimmage to cc and 12 is rathfarnham to cc. Both nowhere near clonskeagh.
Again 12 is rathfarnham to cc goes nowhere near goatstown.
14 is a good bit away from church town, it goes from UCD to cc via ballsbridge.

Ohhhhhhhh you're on about the route corridors. I thought you were on about the proposed bus routes.

tom1ie

Qrt wrote: »

Ohhhhhhhh you're on about the route corridors. I thought you were on about the proposed bus routes.

No sorry. I meant the proposed radial routes that are going to be qbc standard all the way into cc. There just seems to be a large gap in the area east of rathfarnham and west of UCD.