BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

CatInABox

Wheety wrote: »

You have to be very naive to believe that will actually happen. If someone has a seat on the 14, they will stay where they are, especially if it's wet and cold out. It's not like the bypass saves you a huge amount of time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

To save 10 to 15 minutes, I'd definitely change bus, particularly on a spine where the buses are going to come once every three minutes. 10 to 15 minutes might not be huge to you, but it certainly is to me, and countless others.

CatInABox

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

According to the figures, the new patterns will use the existing drivers and vehicles more intensively. If this can be done, the unit cost (cost per vehicle km) will indeed fall.

Yes, we'll end up with a more efficient service, but in terms of money being spent, it's only going to go up. Cost per passenger will definitely go down, that's one of the stated goals of the BusConnects proposal.

Podge_irl

Wheety wrote: »

This was my point a few weeks ago, I think it was in this thread. The new 14 will start at Liffey Valley and will go through Palmerstown and Chapilizod towards the city centre.

People in Chapilizod are up in arms as this will now be their only bus. The buses are currently full to capacity before Chapilizod. We're being told that the people getting on the 14 before Chapilizod will simply hop off on the N4 and get a bypass bus.

You have to be very naive to believe that will actually happen. If someone has a seat on the 14, they will stay where they are, especially if it's wet and cold out. It's not like the bypass saves you a huge amount of time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Look at the 14 route though. It makes no sense for anyone to get on the 14 in the first place unless they are going to Chapelizod or Islandbridge. There will certainly be no one getting on it at Liffey Valley just to go into town.

I think you are naive to think that people won't value getting places 10-15 mins faster. Indeed, if you informed people they were all going to take 10-15 mins longer to get everywhere there would be uproar. It is a sizeable chunk of time.

MJohnston

10-15 minutes would be a massive time saving for a journey that should only take around 30 minutes total.

salmocab

Don’t know the routes ye are talking about but if it’s a choice between taking 30 minutes by a direct route but you risk standing or possibly not even getting on the first bus past or spending 40/45 minutes on a bus you can get on and get a seat in the first few stops lots will pick the latter.
I think an important thing is where you have the spine routes the wait times must be minimum so the various sub routes are timed so that your actually waiting say 7 minutes tops instead of 14 and two arrive together. Also the capacity must be there that people aren’t being driven past.

CatInABox

salmocab wrote: »

Don’t know the routes ye are talking about but if it’s a choice between taking 30 minutes by a direct route but you risk standing or possibly not even getting on the first bus past or spending 40/45 minutes on a bus you can get on and get a seat in the first few stops lots will pick the latter.
I think an important thing is where you have the spine routes the wait times must be minimum so the various sub routes are timed so that your actually waiting say 7 minutes tops instead of 14 and two arrive together. Also the capacity must be there that people aren’t being driven past.

Peak time on the spine will be 3 minutes, giving an average wait time of 90 seconds.

Wheety

The reason why I'm taking this point of view is because I see it every morning. Maybe not everyone's time is as important as yours. Some leave the house earlier than necessary and can take their time getting in to work.

Today, the 26 arrived at the 2nd bus stop on the N4 (at the oval) and the majority of the people waiting got on even though there was a 25A, 25B, 67X and 51D (all bypass buses) due within 5 minutes, the first 2 due within a minute. You could see the buses further up the road. This was around 12-15 people. Bus was stopped at the first N4 stop at the footbridge for a while too, obviously letting people on there too. They weren't too bothered about the extra time it takes going through Chapilizod and Islandbridge to get into the city centre.

hmmm

MJohnston wrote: »

10-15 minutes would be a massive time saving for a journey that should only take around 30 minutes total.

10-15 minutes best case. Do you think people are going to get off a bus in bad weather, queue at a location which potentially is exposed to the elements, and take their chances at getting on another bus?

Apparently we are supposed to trust our transport planners will have the infrastructure in place at the time this plan is launched, and we won't all be standing out in the rain waiting for non-existent buses.

The more I think about this plan, the less I like it. I don't trust our transport planners, certainly not after the cross-city shambles and the way bus passengers were treated, and I'm not alone in this.

MJohnston

hmmm wrote: »

10-15 minutes best case. Do you think people are going to get off a bus in bad weather, queue at a location which potentially is exposed to the elements, and take their chances at getting on another bus?

Apparently we are supposed to trust our transport planners will have the infrastructure in place at the time this plan is launched, and we won't all be standing out in the rain waiting for non-existent buses.

The more I think about this plan, the less I like it. I don't trust our transport planners, certainly not after the cross-city shambles and the way bus passengers were treated, and I'm not alone in this.

As has been pointed out - if they're getting on Liffey Valley, they're not going to have any good reason for getting on a 14 bus anyway, other than because they are specifically going to somewhere within Chapelizod. From LV, they can get the S4 route, or, more importantly, the entire C spine (which has a 3 minute peak frequency).


This 14 + Chapelizod issue is a complete non-issue, from the looks of the facts.

Wheety

MJohnston wrote: »

As has been pointed out - if they're getting on Liffey Valley, they're not going to have any good reason for getting on a 14 bus anyway, other than because they are specifically going to somewhere within Chapelizod. From LV, they can get the S4 route, or, more importantly, the entire C spine (which has a 3 minute peak frequency).


This 14 + Chapelizod issue is a complete non-issue, from the looks of the facts.

Forget about Liffey Valley. The 26 can fill up at the first stop in Palmerstown some mornings.

I love how people who don't live in the area can say it's a non issue and what are these facts you speak of?

Some mornings I've gotten a bus which goes through Chapilizod and there are more than 20 people waiting at the bus stop at the school. There are 3 Chapilizod stops before the school too.

KD345

MJohnston wrote: »

As has been pointed out - if they're getting on Liffey Valley, they're not going to have any good reason for getting on a 14 bus anyway, other than because they are specifically going to somewhere within Chapelizod. From LV, they can get the S4 route, or, more importantly, the entire C spine (which has a 3 minute peak frequency).

This 14 + Chapelizod issue is a complete non-issue, from the looks of the facts.

If you look at the Kennelsfort Road stop on the N4, at morning peak there is already a 3 minute frequency. Capacity is a big issue here.

At the moment the 26 only operates from Palmerstown Cemetery and is full by Chapelizod. Such was the problem, the NTA approved Dublin Bus to add additional route 26 departures from West County Hotel to help.

I think solution here is to increase the frequency of the 14 to deal with these loads. Dismissing it as a non-issue does not help here, if people cannot get on a bus then this plan will fail.

Podge_irl

The 14 is going to be every 15 mins at peak though, which matches the 26 service (including the extra departures). Maybe a slightly higher frequency than that is needed, that is something the consultation will highlight if it is such an issue.

Wheety

Podge_irl wrote: »

The 14 is going to be every 15 mins at peak though, which matches the 26 service (including the extra departures). Maybe a slightly higher frequency than that is needed, that is something the consultation will highlight if it is such an issue.

Even an extra few 14s starting at the West County at rush hour would make a massive difference. I'm not even in Chapilizod so I'm not just arguing for my own route to be given preferential treatment but I have seen how bad it can get.

I've often waited while 5 or 6 buses go past packed, both Chapilizod buses and bypass buses, but at least I have a choice.

CatInABox

Wheety wrote: »

Forget about Liffey Valley. The 26 can fill up at the first stop in Palmerstown some mornings.

People on the 14 will be better off getting off at Palmerstown bypass and getting onto one of the C spine buses into town, avoiding Chapelizod and Islandbridge altogether.

The entire purpose of the 14 along Kennelsfort Rd is to get people in that area to the C spine, not to get them into town.

Wheety

CatInABox wrote: »

People on the 14 will be better off getting off at Palmerstown bypass and getting onto one of the C spine buses into town, avoiding Chapelizod and Islandbridge altogether.

The entire purpose of the 14 along Kennelsfort Rd is to get people in that area to the C spine, not to get them into town.

Just because it's better does not mean it will happen.

MJohnston

Wheety wrote: »

Forget about Liffey Valley. The 26 can fill up at the first stop in Palmerstown some mornings.

I love how people who don't live in the area can say it's a non issue and what are these facts you speak of?

Some mornings I've gotten a bus which goes through Chapilizod and there are more than 20 people waiting at the bus stop at the school. There are 3 Chapilizod stops before the school too.

Right now if you get the 26 at the terminus in Palmerstown, you have a couple of other options too - there's a few different services that go to the city centre along the N4 bypass, but most of them detour through Chapelizod, and there is an okay frequency on each route, but they aren't synchronised, so there's a lot of frequency overlap. You can also walk down to the Ballyfermot Road and get on a bus there, but there's only 3 routes, and only 1 with decent frequency.



Under BusConnects, from that same terminus in Palmerstown, you could walk to the N4 bypass (which, from my experience of Palmerstown traffic would be faster than taking the bus that same short distance) and you'll have access to the full C-spine route, which will strive to synchronise to avoid overlap, and therefore provide a 3 minute frequency, and the route uses the full bypass rather than going through Chapelizod. You can also walk down to the Ballyfermot Road, where there will now only be 2 routes (S4 and G2), but both with higher frequencies, combining to offer another high frequency connection to the city (with the S4 you'll eventually have to switch in Ballyfermot village to a G-spine bus, but there frequency will be 6 minutes). You can also get on the 14 which will take the Chapelizod detour and go into town after that (and you can use the 14 to get to both the N4 and the Ballyfermot Road where those spine routes await).



So in comparison, right now the 26 is the no-brainer option for people living in Palmerstown, as there aren't really any more direct options (25a/25b aside) available to them - so most people take the 26, so it gets packed out, so it appears to be constantly full through Chapelizod. Under BusConnects, the C and G routes will be much more attractive options than the 14 being both higher frequency and importantly having faster journey times. So many more people will go to them, either walking directly or using the 14 to connect to them. This will reduce the pressure on the 14, and free up capacity for passengers from Chapelizod who need to use it.


Whether the frequency of the 14 should be increased or not is another question - but imo it's super clear that there will be a big reduction in passengers coming into Chapelizod from further out on the 14 compared to the existing situation.

Wheety

We're on opposite sides of this and obviously not going to change each others opinions here. I just don't think people are going to change their habits. Some people will just hop on the 14 outside their estate (Woodfarm) and stay on it. Even more will do it when it's cold and wet.

We're just going around in circles so I'll leave that as my final word on it.

schemingbohemia

Wheety wrote: »

We're on opposite sides of this and obviously not going to change each others opinions here. I just don't think people are going to change their habits. Some people will just hop on the 14 outside their estate (Woodfarm) and stay on it. Even more will do it when it's cold and wet.

We're just going around in circles so I'll leave that as my final word on it.

Plastic Bags
Smoking in pubs
Wearing Seatbelts
The list goes on, people complain do the usual chicken-licken approach and then adapt, it's why we're not living in caves any more.

ThunbergsAreGo

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Plastic Bags
Smoking in pubs
Wearing Seatbelts
The list goes on, people complain do the usual chicken-licken approach and then adapt, it's why we're not living in caves any more.

You are comparing complying with laws to people's transport preferences........

schemingbohemia

Wheety wrote: »

Even an extra few 14s starting at the West County at rush hour would make a massive difference. I'm not even in Chapilizod so I'm not just arguing for my own route to be given preferential treatment but I have seen how bad it can get.

I've often waited while 5 or 6 buses go past packed, both Chapilizod buses and bypass buses, but at least I have a choice.

So you currently have a choice of which bus you can't get on? That's not much of a choice.
The new routing will give you a much better chance of actually getting on a bus rather than watching them go past full and yet you're opposed to this.
You will also have the option of going the opposite direction and getting onto a C bus or walking to get a C bus, they seem to me like better options than the current set-up where you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting on a bus in Chapelizod.

Wheety

schemingbohemia wrote: »

So you currently have a choice of which bus you can't get on? That's not much of a choice.
The new routing will give you a much better chance of actually getting on a bus rather than watching them go past full and yet you're opposed to this.
You will also have the option of going the opposite direction and getting onto a C bus or walking to get a C bus, they seem to me like better options than the current set-up where you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting on a bus in Chapelizod.

I'm not in Chapilizod. I should be fine because I have a choice of buses. I didn't say I was opposed to BusConnects, I just think the people in Chapilizod are being screwed and their concerns are being dismissed by people who don't even live in the area.

I currently have a choice of 25, 25A, 25B, 25X, 26, 51D, 66, 66X, 67, 67X. These can be on the RTPI as 3 due in the next minute, then another 2 within 5 minutes and then buses every few minutes after that. They are still packed and not stopping. If this happens and a 14 comes along with space, I can guarantee you people will get on at Palmerstown.

MJohnston

Wheety wrote: »

I'm not in Chapilizod. I should be fine because I have a choice of buses. I didn't say I was opposed to BusConnects, I just think the people in Chapilizod are being screwed and their concerns are being dismissed by people who don't even live in the area.

I currently have a choice of 25, 25A, 25B, 25X, 26, 51D, 66, 66X, 67, 67X. These can be on the RTPI as 3 due in the next minute, then another 2 within 5 minutes and then buses every few minutes after that. They are still packed and not stopping. If this happens and a 14 comes along with space, I can guarantee you people will get on at Palmerstown.

The concerns aren't being dismissed at all - you and some of us just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether people will make small adjustments to their commuting behaviour.

Also notable is that what you're talking about for the current situation doesn't solve anything for people in Chapelizod either. If all those routes are currently packed, forcing them to go through Chapelizod without being able to stop and pick anyone up doesn't add any value.

LeinsterDub

naughtb4 wrote: »

You are comparing complying with laws to people's transport preferences........

People used to transfer on the trams in Dublin
People used to expect food on a flight
People used to expect to bring their bags for free
People used to not get the Luas
People used to not get the Dart

Wheety

MJohnston wrote: »

The concerns aren't being dismissed at all - you and some of us just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether people will make small adjustments to their commuting behaviour.

Also notable is that what you're talking about for the current situation doesn't solve anything for people in Chapelizod either. If all those routes are currently packed, forcing them to go through Chapelizod without being able to stop and pick anyone up doesn't add any value.

Cutting it from 25, 26, 66 and 67 to one bus can't help. While I said several buses go past packed, the 4 buses above stop sometimes to allow people on in Palmerstown.

And I know you'll say everyone will just get a bypass bus under the new system and won't be on the 14. But there are large queues at the 2 stops in Palmertown before the fork every day.

I said I wouldn't be back, but just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

10-15 minutes best case. Do you think people are going to get off a bus in bad weather, queue at a location which potentially is exposed to the elements, and take their chances at getting on another bus?

Apparently we are supposed to trust our transport planners will have the infrastructure in place at the time this plan is launched, and we won't all be standing out in the rain waiting for non-existent buses.

The more I think about this plan, the less I like it. I don't trust our transport planners, certainly not after the cross-city shambles and the way bus passengers were treated, and I'm not alone in this.

Your essentially saying you're opposed to all change. Not a particularity helpful stance.

LeinsterDub

Wheety wrote: »

Even an extra few 14s starting at the West County at rush hour would make a massive difference. I'm not even in Chapilizod so I'm not just arguing for my own route to be given preferential treatment but I have seen how bad it can get.

I've often waited while 5 or 6 buses go past packed, both Chapilizod buses and bypass buses, but at least I have a choice.

And how many of those on the buses where taking the 14 not because it went where the needed but because it was their only option
And how many of those on the buses where taking the 14 not because it the quickest option because it was cheaper than taking the Luas or the Dart.

Wheety

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And how many of those on the buses where taking the 14 not because it went where the needed but because it was their only option
And how many of those on the buses where taking the 14 not because it the quickest option because it was cheaper than taking the Luas or the Dart.

The 14 I'm talking about is the new route under Busconnects so there is no Luas or Dart near the route.

I'm not sure what your first sentence is about because the new 14 could be people's only choice if several of the C buses go past packed.

LeinsterDub

Wheety wrote: »

The 14 I'm talking about is the new route under Busconnects so there is no Luas or Dart near the route.

I'm not sure what your first sentence is about because the new 14 could be people's only choice if several of the C buses go past packed.

Sorry , I thought you were referring to the existing 14. Both the 14 and the C meet commuter trains and the Luas at Island Bridge

Because BusConnects has both orbitals and free interchanges . People will be able to get the bus they want to quickest interchange instead of having to go to town.

Wheety

In theory.

Dublin Bus will still be running the buses. Another issue which will crop up is when a bus doesn't run 'due to operational reasons'. This has happened on the 26 at least 5 times over the last few weeks when I have been going home from work. If it's your only bus, you're kinda stuck.

(I haven't changed my opinion on how Chapilizod will be affected by Busconnects but I'm just gong around in circles here.)

Peregrine

Wheety wrote: »

People in Chapilizod are up in arms as this will now be their only bus. The buses are currently full to capacity before Chapilizod. We're being told that the people getting on the 14 before Chapilizod will simply hop off on the N4 and get a bypass bus.

You have to be very naive to believe that will actually happen. If someone has a seat on the 14, they will stay where they are, especially if it's wet and cold out. It's not like the bypass saves you a huge amount of time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

I've held my tongue for a bit but I just can't let this one go.

If there was a metro line built along the C spine instead, we'd have you claiming that people will continue to get the long winded bus route through Chapelizod instead of walking 5 mins to get the metro.

Or that the the passenger numbers on the two Luas lines are an illusion and that everyone is actually still getting their local bus.

Habits change when better options are made available to them. We can discuss capacity issues at Chapelizod but the idea that people's commutting habits will remain set in stone even at the face of great change is pure nonsense and isn't something we should be entertaining.