BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Annasopra · 10-09-2018 2:00pm

ITV2 wrote: »

I attended one of the customer meets in west Dublin recently, their knowledge of Bus Connect was a bit sketchy to say the least, not good PR is my opinion.

Same here. I found the NTA reps had really poor local knowledge and hadnt a clue what was proposed or why it was proposed.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-09-2018 2:01pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yes, for another wedge issue, not engaging with the facts which are that BusConnects provides more frequent services that get people further for cheaper than they currently do. No real engagement with facts just creating fear and anger, no solutions just scaremongering.

What I've got from people is that they don't really know what's going to happen. If busconnects had a decent marketing department and people who could engage with real people then there probably wouldn't have been a need for even the first public meeting.

AlekSmart · 10-09-2018 2:05pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Same here. I found the NTA reps had really poor local knowledge and hadnt a clue what was proposed or why it was proposed.

Some might suggest that it was deliberate.

Some of the Official Reps were allocated Events far removed from their own localities,almost as if the NTA were intent on appearing lacklustre.

Busconnects really is taking on a decidely less than healthy hue....I wonder if they could interest Micheal O'Leary

?

MJohnston · 10-09-2018 2:11pm

Patww79 wrote: »

What I've got from people is that they don't really know what's going to happen. If busconnects had a decent marketing department and people who could engage with real people then there probably wouldn't have been a need for even the first public meeting.

I think you're being massively naive there. No amount of marketing or PR was going to help BusConnects against the pure and simple fact that it is changing the bus network.

Any change to buses, no matter how useful and necessary, will always be swamped in hysteria.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-09-2018 2:15pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I think you're being massively naive there. No amount of marketing or PR was going to help BusConnects against the pure and simple fact that it is changing the bus network.

Any change to buses, no matter how useful and necessary, will always be swamped in hysteria.

Nah, there's some truth in what you're saying but it could be infinitely better.

schemingbohemia · 10-09-2018 2:22pm

Patww79 wrote: »

What I've got from people is that they don't really know what's going to happen. If busconnects had a decent marketing department and people who could engage with real people then there probably wouldn't have been a need for even the first public meeting.

They're having public information sessions all over the County! The NBRU sponsored mis-information sessions run with PBPP/SOLIDARITY/WHATEVERYOU'REHAVINGYOURSELFTHISWEEK are deliberately not giving the full story, they are spreading lies about services. This has been followed by FF doing the same thing.
The marketing and engagement should be better from the NTA and their PR has been awful - but when you're fighting against fake news and information being peddled about by people who are only interested in votes and not in making their constituents lives better it's very difficult. It's particularly difficult for the NTA to call out politician's lies.

MJohnston · 10-09-2018 2:29pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Nah, there's some truth in what you're saying but it could be infinitely better.

Whether the information distribution could have been better or not is a completely different question. You claimed that with better info available to the public there wouldn't have been a need for public meetings. I think that's just never going to be true, no matter how good and how much information is supplied.

salmocab · 10-09-2018 3:55pm

I think at some stage a flyer needs to go in every door in Dublin, a localized one explaining what you currently have locally, what your getting and the honest pros and cons of the change.
My area is losing a direct bus to town and even allowing for maybe being a bit quicker people are going to think I’d be happier sitting on a bus for 10 extra minutes than having to change halfway and probably having to stand the rest of the way.

AlanG · 10-09-2018 4:30pm

CatInABox wrote: »

No point starting work on infrastructure changes until the plan is finalised, as they'd be working on things that may change.
.

The point of holding a public consultation is that things may change - the plan for Dublin 15 is rubbish without significant infrastructure changes yet they pretend they haven't got details of these yet. In the absence of details of the infrastructure changes people can only give feedback on the network changes with the current infrastructure. This will be negative feedback and then those who place hope above experience complain about the negativity.

A plan without infrastructure is not a plan - a kid could have drawn it. I actually support changes to the network but I have no faith that infrastructure changes including CPOs will follow on from network changes, if it is going to happen it should all happen together.

AlanG · 10-09-2018 4:37pm

Daith wrote: »

Their job is to advise generally and try and get the public to make a suggestions on the website.

Problem is they're against groups who think the plan is the finalised one so it looks the the NTA people haven't a clue.

NTA should cop on by now or change their message. There's probably more people on this forum who could explain the changes better than the NTA people at these events.

The reps in Blanchardstown center were telling people they could hop off the 261, go around the corner and get on the B route on the N3 near the M50. When I pointed out that the B route was running on a dual carriageway about 20 meters below the 261 bridge with no access they said they didn't realise that an passed me onto the expert in the team - he didn't realise either until we opened google maps. That was at 7:45 so they had been giving people the wrong information for almost 6 hours at that stage.

AlekSmart · 10-09-2018 4:39pm

AlanG wrote: »

The point of holding a public consultation is that things may change - the plan for Dublin 15 is rubbish without significant infrastructure changes yet they pretend they haven't got details of these yet. In the absence of details of the infrastructure changes people can only give feedback on the network changes with the current infrastructure. This will be negative feedback and then those who place hope above experience complain about the negativity.

A plan without infrastructure is not a plan - a kid could have drawn it. I actually support changes to the network but I have no faith that infrastructure changes including CPOs will follow on from network changes, if it is going to happen it should all happen together.

Got it in ONE.

I have a high degree of faith in Jarrett Walker and his committment to his Plan.

Sadly,I have zero faith in the senior echelons of the National Transport Authority,whom,I suspect will eventually compromise the Busconnects plan so much that Mr Walker will disown it and walk away.

As it is currently strtuctured,the NTA is comprised of mediocre career Civil Servants,supported by a retinue of transferees from Irish Local Administration.

This boxed-set will not end well.

Dublinstiofán · 10-09-2018 6:26pm

I attended one of these ‘Consultation’ days. There wasn’t much consulting going on, nothing was being recorded at all which is not meaningful consultation! They’ll railroad the whole thing through without the supporting infrastructure and try to fix it as and when it suits them. They will save money and we’ll be paying with our time waiting to change busses.

I’m certainly not impressed anyway. For me to get from Templeogue to Rathmines it looks like I will have to walk for 15 - 20 minutes (to one of two stops) and change bus at least two to three times to get onto the ‘A Spine’. The 15a gets me directly to Rathmines in 15 minutes at the moment. How does this constitute progress when the 15a bus is highly subscribed to and has been perfected over many years? The mind boggles!

Sierra Oscar · 10-09-2018 6:56pm

The NTA's publicity of these changes seems to be a bit of a shambles. Apparently they aren't sending people to the public meetings that have been organised despite being invited to do so.

It's important that the misinformation at these meetings is challenged head on. It hasn't been to date and the opposition to the changes has been steadily increasing as a result. Walker shouldn't have to defend the proposals single-handedly.

https://twitter.com/taniadoylecllr/status/1039207052189556736

Dardania · 10-09-2018 7:05pm

I’ve called NTA’s head of pr out on this a few times on Twitter. Quite frustrating to see his refusal to deal with the misinformation. I get that it’s tough to deal with walking into a room of people actively against your ideas / the ideas you must sell, but still that’s surely the job.

Peregrine · 10-09-2018 7:22pm

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I attended one of these ‘Consultation’ days. There wasn’t much consulting going on, nothing was being recorded at all which is not meaningful consultation!

"Consultation" days because they weren't consultation days. They were information days.

You don't seem to understand how public consultations work. There isn't going to be someone standing there with clipboard to write down your thoughts. It's up to you to submit your thoughts to the consultation process. Details can be found on the website and at the imformation sessions.

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

They’ll railroad the whole thing through without the supporting infrastructure and try to fix it as and when it suits them. They will save money and we’ll be paying with our time waiting to change busses.

Save money? The NTA is not the cabinet. Why would the NTA not spend money on something when the money has been allocated to them?

You're showing a fundamental lack of understanding of how the whole process works.

devnull · 10-09-2018 8:03pm

NTA have confirmed that they now intend to extend the 90 minute transfer fare onto commuter services out to Maynooth as well as DART services, which will mean a big saving for people using bus + Maynooth line.

https://twitter.com/dermotog/status/1039217278536044544

jd · 10-09-2018 8:23pm

Also Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line

https://twitter.com/dermotog/status/1039231329815224321

devnull · 10-09-2018 8:26pm

jd wrote: »

Also Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line

https://twitter.com/dermotog/status/1039231329815224321

Reckon that will push the price of the ticket up though to include the commuter trains.

I know they were talking about between €2.20 and €2.60 or so, but I reckon you will probably be looking at €2.60 itself now.

CatInABox · 10-09-2018 8:30pm

devnull wrote: »

Reckon that will push the price of the ticket up though to include the commuter trains.

I know they were talking about between €2.20 and €2.60 or so, but I reckon you will probably be looking at €2.60 itself now.

It's the right thing to do though, as much as I'd like the price to be lower.

Dublinstiofán · 11-09-2018 8:26am

Peregrine wrote: »

"Consultation" days because they weren't consultation days. They were information days.

Exactly my point, why were they information days when they should have been consultation days! Nothing is gained unless meaningful consultation takes place.

Peregrine wrote: »

You don't seem to understand how public consultations work. There isn't going to be someone standing there with clipboard to write down your thoughts. It's up to you to submit your thoughts to the consultation process. Details can be found on the website and at the imformation sessions.

I know exactly how consultation works having being involved in over 50 of them in the last few years. I can tell you that what the NTA are doing isn’t an effective method of consultation. I have submitted my comments through the proper channels. Also sometimes what is required is somebody writing down what people’s thoughts are so the information isn’t lost. If you worked one of these events you would know that if you met 300 people in the day and have no record of what any of them said it’s a waste of a day!

Peregrine wrote: »

Save money? The NTA is not the cabinet. Why would the NTA not spend money on something when the money has been allocated to them? You're showing a fundamental lack of understand of how the whole process works.

If you think this system isn’t being developed to save money in the long run, I think that it is you who has the fundamental lack of understanding

CatInABox · 11-09-2018 8:33am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

If you think this system isn’t being developed to save money, I think that it is you who has the fundamental lack of understanding

BusConnects will require more buses, more drivers and more hours from those drivers, along with the required infrastructure. We'll end up with a more efficient bus network, but there's no part of this plan that will result in money "saved".

Dublinstiofán · 11-09-2018 8:49am

CatInABox wrote: »

BusConnects will require more buses, more drivers and more hours from those drivers, along with the required infrastructure. We'll end up with a more efficient bus network, but there's no part of this plan that will result in money "saved".

I’m talking about in the long run. They’ll spend like lunatics to get it railroaded through on consultants and everything else. Personally I doubt more drivers will be required especially since a large number of the routes serve north and south of the city meaning one driver can serve two of the old routes.

devnull · 11-09-2018 8:50am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I’m talking about in the long run. They’ll spend like lunatics to get it railroaded through on consultants and everything else. Personally I doubt more drivers will be required especially since a large number of the routes serve north and south of the city meaning one driver can serve two of the old routes.

You do realise that there has been a large amount of cross city routes for years at this point?

Dublinstiofán · 11-09-2018 8:52am

devnull wrote: »

You do realise that there has been a large amount of cross city routes for years at this point?

I do but there looks to be an expansion of those from what I’ve seen

L1011 · 11-09-2018 8:57am

This will allow more services to be run for less than tacking them on to the Victorian network we have now. They'll spend less additional money but that isn't the same as saving money

MJohnston · 11-09-2018 8:59am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I do but there looks to be an expansion of those from what I’ve seen

Regardless of whether or not that's true (and I'm not sure it is), the absolute number of buses making journeys is increasing, even though the number of routes is going down. You can't achieve that without more drivers.

devnull · 11-09-2018 9:00am

Plus the fleet will increase by approx 100 buses this year alone, with the increase of another 50-60 expected next year.

AlmightyCushion · 11-09-2018 9:35am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I’m talking about in the long run. They’ll spend like lunatics to get it railroaded through on consultants and everything else. Personally I doubt more drivers will be required especially since a large number of the routes serve north and south of the city meaning one driver can serve two of the old routes.

They're increasing the amount of buses in use this year. The buses don't drive themselves so this will require more drivers.

Wheety · 11-09-2018 9:38am

salmocab wrote: »

My area is losing a direct bus to town and even allowing for maybe being a bit quicker people are going to think I’d be happier sitting on a bus for 10 extra minutes than having to change halfway and probably having to stand the rest of the way.

This was my point a few weeks ago, I think it was in this thread. The new 14 will start at Liffey Valley and will go through Palmerstown and Chapilizod towards the city centre.

People in Chapilizod are up in arms as this will now be their only bus. The buses are currently full to capacity before Chapilizod. We're being told that the people getting on the 14 before Chapilizod will simply hop off on the N4 and get a bypass bus.

You have to be very naive to believe that will actually happen. If someone has a seat on the 14, they will stay where they are, especially if it's wet and cold out. It's not like the bypass saves you a huge amount of time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

antoinolachtnai · 11-09-2018 10:03am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They're increasing the amount of buses in use this year. The buses don't drive themselves so this will require more drivers.

According to the figures, the new patterns will use the existing drivers and vehicles more intensively. If this can be done, the unit cost (cost per vehicle km) will indeed fall.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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