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Marathon Improvers Thread.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    I am doing Chicago in 2023.

    Up to now my running has really been around club sessions when not in a marathon training block so no real goals to them

    What do others do in their "pre marathon" training block? Looking at dates at the moment I could turn my existing mainaintace training into a base building block, followed by an 18 week half marathon plan and then a 18 week marathon plan? Does that sound reasonable or stupid?

    My normal weekly mileage is around 30 miles which goes up to 50 for the marathon block



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    I'd only do the dedicated half marathon plan if you have a HM lined up and it's important to you to do well in it. Otherwise, just focus on base building for the first half of the year before starting the marathon specific block in June.

    Chicago is a great event and for most of us a major undertaking in terms of expense, logistics and execution. It was my major focus last year and the whole year really was a build up to it. I wanted to justify the trip with a PB and there was a huge focus in the first half of the year on building aerobic conditioning - in other words, building up the mileage and lots of work just below the threshold - feel free to look at my log if you want the specifics (I was lucky enough to have a trusted friend, who is a fan of the Lydiard approach, give me a schedule and coach me through it).

    If you have a more casual objective for Chicago, you might take a different path (maybe something like a 12-week 5k block in the first half of the year). The important thing is to have a mostly structured approach and an appropriate set of paces based on your ability - hopefully the challenging yet achievable end of that ability.

    Good luck and keep us posted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    Thanks for that, I suppose building the base is a better idea.

    Your log is very interesting, you do quite a bit of mileage! It makes for interesting reading.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭event


    So for any of us here, how did the year go and plans for next year?

    My year overall went pretty well.

    In May I moved by Half PB from 1:38 to 1:33. Then in September it went from 1:33 to 1:32.

    In October I moved by Marathon PB from 3:41 to 3:39

    In November I moved by 10k PB from 42:33 to 40:50. And in the same race I reduced by 5k PB by 2s.

    No huge targets for next year, think I am going to do Cork but it will be with a mate who is running his first and looking to go sub 4, Ill run with him.

    Then I have an entry for Dublin but that isnt a PB course IMO



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 866 ✭✭✭Unthought Known


    My year went well up until the last 5 miles of Dublin 😂. Boston was won't be forgotten, a tough run but I at least expected it.

    5m PB in June 34:19 I think.

    10m PB in August 71:xx which I then beat during the Dublin HM, crossing the 10m in just over 69 mins.

    HM PB from 1:34:59 to 1:31:25 in September.

    PB'd the first 20 miles of Dublin before crashing to earth!

    Next year: London in April. Plan (PD this time I think) starts officially next week but realistically I won't get into it until after Christmas. I have an entry for Donedea again in February, but I may scrap that as I really want to target 3:20 for London. DCM next year will be run for fun, I've had enough of struggling in that one. I'm in for Ecotrail 80k in September, but will see how the training goes in the summer and will drop down to the 46k if I don't feel ready.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Great progression there - focusing on marathon and training properly will see you blow that 3:39 out of the water, as you should be closer to 3:20 with that HM time. So Dublin can certainly be a PB course for you if you want it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    A perfect year for me really. No injuries and my highest ever mileage at roughly 2200 miles for the year. It was the second full year of consistent training after a few years of doing very little running due to a litany of injuries so the base was pretty good heading into 2022.

    I brought my 5k time down from 16:47 to 16:41 in May and then got it down to 16:29 at Jingle Bells a couple of weeks ago. This is probably my favourite distance so I plan to focus on lowering it further in the first half of next year. The goal would be sub 16, I guess, but I'm a long way off that at the moment.

    I had a couple of attempts at improving my 10k pb and managed to get that down to 35:58 in April. There's still lots of room for improvement there.

    I cut a minute or so off my 10 mile PB in July, taking it to around 57:30.

    I ran mid 1:18 for the half in Mullingar in March and then got down to mid 1:17 in Tullamore in August during my marathon block.

    The main focus of my year was the Amsterdam marathon and that couldn't have went any better as I hit my A goal of sub 2:45, running mid 2:44 which took a big chunk off my previous PB of 2:57 (although that was from 2016 so before supershoes).

    I'm signed up for Berlin 2023 where I'd be optimistic of getting into the 2:3x range if I can get another year of solid mileage behind me. Before that I'll be focusing on lots of 5-10k stuff and a bit of cross country and I'll shift the emphasis to longer stuff in late spring and try and roll from a half marathon block into a marathon block as I did this year.





  • Think I'll do Manchester in April. Not sure which plan to follow. Aiming for a 30min pb at 8min miles. We shall see. It will be 3rd marathon and first one trained for properly. 1200k ran this year so aiming for 12 week training block



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 866 ✭✭✭Unthought Known


    Does anyone have any preference for 12 week over 18 week plans? I've always gone for 18 week, but I'm wondering if I was in better shape for the Dublin HM this year, 6 weeks before DCM.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Like everything, it depends. If you already have the base, a 12-week sharpening block is good enough. If you don’t (or if the base you have is not very marathon specific), go for the full monty 17-18 week programme.

    It’s good to be critical when evaluating that base. Do you train well? Are your training paces appropriate? If not, maybe better to go back to the basics and the longer plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    You did very well.

    My year went very well too.

    Took my HM PB from 1:53:04 to 1:45:25 in Cork in June and to 1:43:05 In Waterford at the start of September.

    After the Cork Half I decided to concentrate on Dublin and try and get sub 4. I had planned to do the Kerry Way Ultra Lite in September too but Keep the Main Thing the Main Thing is ingrained in me from Boards so I deferred that and gave Dublin my all and took my PB from 4:03:04 to 3:45:58.

    I then took 1 min 3 seconds off my 5Km PB on November 20th going from 23:37 to 22:34. That was just on the back of marathon training and had hoped to take another few seconds off in the Togher 5Km on the 27th December but unlikely now as have a few niggles going on with my hip and achilles and now a head cold so the specific training I’d planned hasn’t happened. My body needs a rest.

    Next years targets are to PB over all distances on the way to hopefully taking a substantial amount off my marathon PB again. I’m working hard on strength work again, will tighten up nutrition in January and get back to running properly then too hopefully. There’s a few 10 milers In February and March and my 10 mile PB is very soft. I’d love to know what I’m really capable of marathon wise. I’m registered for Dublin and don’t intend doing a marathon before September to really work on speed and base and Dublin isn’t the most ideal for the best PB but not sure if I should pick another. Plenty time to decide that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 KC_Kop


    Just about consider myself a potential Marathon Improver…

    Im not as fast as the majority of you who post on this thread but I’m looking to go sub 4 in a Marathon this year. Had hoped Dublin last October would be the one I did it in but it just went all wrong on me in a few ways, both self inflicted and circumstances beyond my control even before the race. Anyways I finished with in 4:26 and was just glad to get to finish by the end of it.

    Looking forward to giving this thread a proper read from start to finish over the next day or so and hopefully pick up some tips.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Best of luck. I only went sub 4 this year but this thread is for everybody.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    Yes everyone welcome in this thread.

    First day of Manchester Marathon training yesterday. Have a long road back, put on a fair bit of weight since DCM.

    Head still not really in the game, the mental health hasn’t been great the last while. Hopefully a bit of consistency in the training will sort me out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭event


    DCM was a disaster for most last year so don't be too hard on yourself.


    I'm currently suffering from the flu that's going around or COVID, not sure which. Once it clears I'll get back out



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 KC_Kop


    Thanks Kelly,Finn and event.

    Yeah Dublin seemed to go wrong for a lot of people I know also. Strange.

    Currently weighing up options for a Marathon. Got the usual PFO for London. Was taking maybe Manchester.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    There’s a Manchester Marathon thread set up here as well as a Sub 4 thread somewhere that has some very good advice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭Unknownability




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Sub-4 thread is here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057865918/the-sub-4-support-thread/p1

    Although marathon performances tend to improve quite dramatically as you develop as a runner, achieving a big marathon goal, especially after running one that went wrong, is often about facing up to any weaknesses that might have been in your approach previously (e.g. training at unsustainable paces, lack of mileage, poor nutrition and hydration etc etc.). These are all things that the Improvers Thread and the Sub-4 thread can help with.

    Good luck!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 KC_Kop


    Yeah so I’ve heard. Weighing up my options, will need to decide quick if I’m going to do Manchester though!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    If you're looking for Sub 4 I'd have a look at the Graduates thread. The Grads plan would be perfect for you in my opinion. It's properly structured and will definitely improve you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    Anyone else watching Stephen Scullions videos on YouTube lately? Some brilliant content imo.

    The video yesterday about running steady in training was brilliant. Love how he explains how it’s ok to run in the so called ‘grey zone’ that we hear so much bad press about. It’s training not jogging that gets you results as he says himself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭marathon2022




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 766 ✭✭✭MisterJinx


    I watched that and I suppose I was a little confused as it goes against the training I have been doing recently which tends to be lots of easy running and then some speed work. Is there probably a factor here that need to be considered in that you would have to have built a good aerobic base first before introducing steady runs and even then with the steady runs you might be looking at once per week with the majority still being easy paced? Also would tempo workouts and steady run not be similar in nature?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Tempo would be considerably faster (although tempo is defined differently by different coaches).

    Lydiard's base training incorporates lots of steady work. Most marathon plans do too I'd say. The Hansons long run is at steady pace, for example. But yeah, I'd say once or twice a week is plenty for steady work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    I think he is saying don’t get caught in a trap of running everything easy and not to be afraid of the ‘grey’ zone.

    I don’t think he is saying don’t run easy, he did mention about recovery and going easy also.

    Im not a fan of running easy on top of easy on top of easy, it’s grand like you say if you are base building or want to just finish a Marathon (nothing wrong with that) but when going for a specific goal you need to train not jog as he says. For Marathon training I prefer quality over quantity, it’s what works for me the best.

    As for a tempo run is… how long is a piece of string? To me tempo pace currently is Marathon pace, to others it’s between 10k and Half Marathon pace, call it 15km pace if you will. I think people get mixed up between Tempo and Threshold pace which are different imo.

    He says Steady runs should be slower than Marathon pace but faster than Easy run pace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭jlang


    Advice is good and enjoying his videos but there seems to be a mismatch between his joggingroom sales pitch and then scaling off his paces.

    His defn of steady pace is 20% slower than his marathon pace which might be reasonable at 5/6 mins per mile but he's a marathon pro. If my marathon pace is around 8min/mile for a 3:30 time, previously I'd have just described that as "steady" and be delighted to just hold that for marathon duration. 20% slower again seems to be well up into easy territory. I'm not sure how much easier he thinks my easy easy then needs to get - as I can feel form disappearing at 10+ min/mile.

    Probably just means my MP should be faster to circle round to his pace scaling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    Yes, I wouldn’t get too caught up in percentages. If you have a good handle of your paces and you know your Marathon Pace and Easy paces, just go somewhere in between if you want to do a steady state run.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Mitch Buchannon


    Hey folks, quick question.... hopefully...

    Im running Donadea on the 12Feb and I'm doing Boston in April.

    Has anyone got a good idea of a plan I can fit in for the 9 weeks between the two races ? Maybe keeping the volume up or with some sessions etc.

    My last few plans have been Hal Higdon via the app, including my current 50km plan.

    My last marathon (other than long training runs) was Dublin in October and I ran 3:48 in that. I'd like to do better in Boston if I could , buts it's not my priority.

    Any and all advice is welcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭py


    Just something to consider. You're likely going to need 2 weeks recovery (conservative) after Donadea and then a taper of 2-3 weeks for Boston. That leaves you with 4-5 weeks of training. I would not expect too much from that short training block other than to keep things ticking over after Donadea.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Mitch Buchannon


    Ahh haaa..you are right. Silly me, I had considered the taper for Boston in that 9 weeks but not the recovery for Donadea. Although I was in pretty good shape and well rested a week after Donadea last year.

    Yeah, maybe just keep the volume up and not go crazy. Like you said, I won't really be able to make any real gains to my current time in such a short period.

    Thank you. I appreciate the input.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    Another brilliant video from Scullion on YouTube today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 turfman1


    I’ve been enjoying his videos, love the obvious passion he has for the sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Bluesquare


    Just started to watch him this weekend very interesting character .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Bluesquare


    Hoping to improve on my marathon time this year . I’m still on the sub 4 train - have did three marathons none of them pleasant .

    Florence 2009 - 4:34 . Was on the tail end of a chest infection I couldn’t shake - retrospectively I think I was actually stressed by the whole thing as do wanted to get under 4:30. A Great course though for a pb - a giant downhill at start that you never go back up .

    Berlin 2016 . 4:27 Overtrained for this one in effort as opposed to miles - did everything at top effort . Ended up walking for a lot of it and easy pace was silly hard . Diagnosed with a virus in my thyroid straight after . Berlin though would recommend - unreal atmosphere and vibes !

    Dublin 2019: 4:05 loved the training felt very strong and fit . It didn’t come together on the day for whatever reason but gave me the confidence i can go under 4.

    I'm just back running properly after a two year dossing period - hoping to do DCM .

    Maybe we need to start a new sub 4 hour thread ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Gah, plan was to race Amsterdam but I stupidly left it too late and it's sold out. Feck.

    Furiously googling here and Lisbon seems attractive. Has anyone ran it? Any feedback?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭Kerry Gooner


    Are you sure Amsterdam is sold out this early for an October marathon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Kellygirl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Yeah, I don't think it sold out last year so would be surprised.

    Regarding Lisbon, it's a very hilly city so can't imagine it's the fastest course.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭FinnC


    Just had a look there and Amsterdam marathon registration still very much open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Cheers guys,

    I had difficulty twice trying to complete registration so googled whether it was sold out. Result came back that it was but have just copped it was relating to a previous year.

    Delighted obv. Will attempt registration again this evening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭FortuneChip


    I might tag along to this thread if there's room for one more!

    Dublin doesn't suit my calendar this year unfortunately, so I'm going abroad. I tried the Berlin ballot, but had no joy, so off to Estonia instead (it was either there or Amsterdam, and I don't really understand my why, but I chose Tallinn).

    I've run Dublin 3 times.

    2016 (4.18) fairly delighted to have completed it, but if left a Sub-4 itch I wanted to scratch

    2017 (4.26). I think I suffered from over-training here, without a proper programme either. Ran myself into the ground ultimately.

    2018 (3.48). Most enjoyable training programme, not nearly as heavy as 2017, but got myself into overall better shape, and it really worked well on the day.

    Had a great running year in 2021 despite no marathon. Made some serious improvements over 5k, 10k and half marathon distances. Achilles tendinitis in 2022 kinda ruined me and just starting to get going again.Working a lot on overall fitness this year as a base, and will try find a suitable programme for Tallinn. Ideally would like to go sub 4. Would be delighted to beat 3.48, and if I do much better than that we can just assume I've cheated!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    If the Donadea went well and there was no significant fade then after your 2 recovery weeks, I would choose the last 5 weeks and taper of a plan with faster running rather than mileage based endurance running (eg Hanson perhaps).

    If you had a big fade (from before the marathon distance marker at 42k) and/or you struggle with endurance in marathons, then keep focusing on that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hello. I am getting back in to running and have a marathon soon. I want to run it at a set pace that will allow me to finish it.

    Is there a good watch that would allow you set a pace and assist you to run at that pace?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭marathon2022


    The best value watch out there for running is the Coros Pace 2. Less than €200 and amazing functionality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Yeah, it's a great watch. Have mine two years and battery life is still excellent. I really like the Coros app too. The workout planner is fantastic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    I would consider steady running appropriate and necessary in good basebuilding after a couple of months of largely easy running. Scullion makes the point that steady running has a rythm similar to marathon running so it gets you efficient.

    He also says you should run easy before and after and this is the crux in my opinion. Steady running should be part of a well thought out training program. It shouldn't take away from other sessions. If you can do a steady run sandwiched by 2 easy days and not compromise recovery from other sessions then that might work. His idea of adding steady segments to easy runs gradually is good. That stops it from fundamentally changing the balance of the training.

    It can also have a use the day before a long run, perhaps for a person who has already developed a 2hr long run, isnt on huge mileage then the steady run could be introduced the day before to prefatigue and make the long run more challenging.

    Not to be introduced willy nilly. Best time to use them IMO again is after a base of easy running has been established.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭marathon2022


    I agree, steady being about 20 to 30 seconds slower than MP.

    The Marathon plans I've followed recently all had steady runs built in. These plans (based on the BAA online plans) are usually 11 days every 14 of running so its easy to fit a steady run in.

    For example I had a 9 mile session last night - 2 mile easy- then 1 mile at 10k pace(6.45/m) with 3 minutes rest x 4 reps - then 400m at 5k(6.00 to 6.15/m) pace x 4 reps followed by 1 minute rest and 2 mile cool down.

    Today I have an easy 6 mile recovery(8.15 -8.30 depending on the shoe)

    Tomorrow I will do a steady 6 mile(7.45) with a session on Friday( with 2 x 3mile hmp(6.55 ish) reps), easy Saturday and long Sunday session.

    PMP is 7.15.

    In fact there's even a steady 20 miler later in the plan, to the OP I would say don't be afraid to introduce steady running, fit them in but not at the expense of easy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭FortuneChip


    Just read that Ryanair have done away with their Tallinn service.

    So either looking at a 6 hour trip with stop-over in Frankfurt or Sweden...

    Or looking for a new marathon. FFS! Hitting the wall before the training even starts



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