Marathon Improvers Thread.

Cartman78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244304#Comment_119244304

Cheers - that makes sense....I might give them a debut so in the 10 Miler on July 10th and see how they go

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244416#Comment_119244416

It took me a number of runs to get the fit right, the tongue on both shoes kept moving to the outside and if tied the laces too tight, it made the top of my foot quite tender, definitely a bit of a learning curve to the fit. I actually would love if the next vaporfly didn't have that diagonal style tongue/lacing.

FinnC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244221#Comment_119244221

Re Races. Oh yeah definitely you can schedule races. Sorry I should have said actually.

What I’ve done in the past if I schedule races in a Marathon build up is stretch out the specific phase to say 14 or 16 weeks depending on what races I entered.

What I’d do then is I’d take a “down” week those weeks and say depending on distance of the race might cut out the speed session altogether or do it but less repeats etc or not as long as a Marathon Pace run.Treat that week as a mini rest or taper if you will and then go straight back into the Marathon specific training the following week. It’s all pretty flexible if I’m honest.

Races are important anyways to see how you’re progressing. I’ve often changed my Marathon Pace up or down based off how a race went.

Like I’ve said, nothing I do is particularly ground breaking. It’s all pretty basic stuff. What I do like though is it cuts out a lot of the fluff that comes with Marathon training. I believe people get too worked up over what sessions to do or trying to stick to a weekly mileage.

My sessions are as basic as you get. 6x1km or 8x800. No messing around really. The speed sessions are really just there to make Marathon Pace feel easy or easier! And the Marathon Pace sessions are important in any Plan imo. If you want to run a specific time you need to put in the miles at that pace.

The cycling then helps the legs recover but still gives you aerobic benefits without the pounding of more running.

Any questions just ask, I’m not a coach or anything but this is just an approach that works for me.

Murph_D

Yes, agree with the above - if you like to race I'd say plug in a couple of races. The race series is ideal really in terms of timing. I'd often do all of them during the marathon block. It's important to remember that a race is the most specific training event that you can do -I never worry about a race replacing a long run or session because the race itself is delivering a powerful training stimulus. The most important thing IMO is to recover properly after the race so, in contrast to Finn C, I would usually substitute at least the first session (Tues on most schedules) session the following week with an easy run. Possibly the Thurs session too, if it's been a long race - I don't think experienced runners with good mileage in the bank have to follow the "one day recovery per mile raced" rule of thumb that is good advice for novices, but I'd still be listening to the body and making sure to recover sufficiently. So incorporating races into a rigid schedule can be a bit of an art but you do get accustomed to it if you're a frequent racer. Just make sure to keep an eye on the main goal all the same!

The Black Oil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243441#Comment_119243441

Yep, that's it.

marathon2022

My plan is 18 weeks, started today

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119258891#Comment_119258891

Best of luck with it. I'll be continuing the base building for another few weeks before switching to a marathon focus for 12 weeks. It's a Lydiard based approach so doing hills and plenty of long steady aerobic runs at the moment.

marathon2022

Thanks Murph, best of luck to you too. I've only skimmed the Lydiard after reading about it here. It has a big following and looks like a one of the true proven methods.

For me I'm just repeating the last marathon cycle in the spring using the free Boston athletic association marathon plan, not sure what method it would be based on but it improved my running so I will stick with for this one. I think it will be three or four weeks before I know if I bit of more than I can chew by targeting sub 3.10 after the 3.18 PB last outing.

Cartman78

So first couple of weeks of slightly more targetted plan going ok.

Have a mildly disconcerting niggle towards the front sole of my left foot....not sure if it's the lingering plantar fasciitis I've had for the past while or something new.

My Long Slow Runs haven't really got off the ground yet....was up in Croke Park last weekend with my native Mayo and heading up again on Sunday to cheer on my adopted Limerick...two very different fan experiences it has to be said 😆

So this week has been a slow 10K, some intervals (400m), a 10K tempo run (@4:30 km pace), today will be a 10 mile blitz on the bike at lunchtime.

Will try to squeeze in a longish run tomorrow at some stage but it may be tricky to schedule by the looks of it.

And in Shoes News I picked up these this morning

A mere snip and €99 and had a voucher as well so effectively only cost me €50 🤡

Anyway have a quick question for anyone here aiming for sub 3:15....what pace are you running your long runs at? I know it varies a lot from person to person but just want to get a ball park number

Wottle

Is 3'15 based off a recent race, realistic target?

P&D have a good guideline of goal pace +20% early on and working down to goal pace +10%. That would give you 5'32 & 5'05.

I had an incyd test recently with Emmett Dunleavy and chatting after he suggested goal pace + 40 to 50 secs per mile, which is about 25 to 30 secs, so 5'02 to 5'07 km pace.

Cartman78

I think 3:15 should be within scope as long as I can stay fit and not miss a chunk of training.

Those figures tally with what I was thinking..... I've struggled in the past to run slower than ~5 min km pace so I'll just have to concentrate and be a bit more disciplined this time around

Unthought Known

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275823#Comment_119275823

I've never struggled to run slower than 5 min km pace 😂

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119280179#Comment_119280179

Me neither. It's a bit like swimming - you have to learn to swim slowly and be able to breathe before you can swim faster and efficiently. I know a lot of runners who 'struggle' to run slowly - they also struggle to run the race times their 'training runs' say they are capable of. Summary - if your marathon pace and your easy pace are too close together, neither is correct.

Cartman78

Yeah ...it's been a real failing of mine over the years 🙁

Typically I'd start a long run at the correct pace (ie. 5 mins+ per km), get bored after a few km, start running faster and then run out of gas and limp home....braindead stuff I know 🙄🙄🙄🙄

The penny has finally dropped I think...did 22.4K earlier on @ 5:15 pace...felt comfortable and kept up a consistent pace and effort from start to finish

Wottle

Learning to be disciplined on your long runs will stand to you big time on race day. Took me along time to grasp this fact.

That's why I asked above about recent races, just to see the relationship to 3'15, make sure your long run paces are suitable for current fitness levels.

I plan to do a lot more PMP miles for this cycle and I'm trying to build a decent base first to work off. Ran my first 20 miler (32k) last Sunday and averaged 5'00km pace, felt easy and controlled and the average HR for the run was 15 beats lower than marathon average, so well within range.

I'm looking at sub 3'10 but won't know for sure till I tackle some races of note 10M/Half.

Also my easy and recovery runs can be done a lot slower and doesn't bother me in the least, all about nailing the sessions when they come.

Been hit with COVID this week which is wrecking my head but I guess better to have it now than in the height of marathon training.

Murph_D

I'd recommend that anyone with a recent covid bout take things very handy on the return and try to sense any differences in breathing and lung capacity. My own dose was very mile sympotamatically but I felt the impact on running for at least four weeks after, maybe more. Everyone is different of course but going back at it too soon won't do you any favours, I feel. Still plenty of time for a good marathon block for anyone who has a decent base.

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119281320#Comment_119281320

Appreciate that Murph, and I'll pay close attention to it, resting HR currently 10 beats higher than normal, thankfully the achy legs and lower back have subsided.

Wow, 4 weeks! but you're right, loads of time.

Did you run at all the week you had it?

I'm targeting Amsterdam but have a Dublin (back-up) entry just incase an extra couple of weeks are needed.

FinnC

I’m going for sub 3 and I run my long runs at about 5:40/km pace. Always add in MP kms at the end but the bulk of the long run is always around that 5:40 pace.

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119281408#Comment_119281408

Hi FiinC, sounds like a good way to do it. Is it your first attempt at sub 3? I'm hoping Amsterdam is a stepping stone to a sub 3 attempt next year.

Is Dublin the target?

FinnC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119281462#Comment_119281462

Hi. No not first attempt,I’ve gone 2:48 before but not in that shape now, maybe someday again though hopefully. Have gone under 3 a few times but it’s been some time since I have ran a Marathon and I feel it’s a good target for this year. Yeah Dublin is the target race.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119281384#Comment_119281384

10 beats sounds familiar. Took those 4 weeks - maybe more - for mine to come down to where it was previously, although I had been in very good shape I think.

No, didn’t run at all until a few days after testing negative. Think 13 days total with no run.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244062#Comment_119244062

Very inspiring. I'm attempting something similar, in terms of the duration and elements of the plan.

Going to follow a Bob Williams 12 week plan for DCM. It's a sub 3 plan, but I'll adapt it slightly. Has a 23 and a 25 mile run that I'm not going to do.

Relatively low mileage, 40 -55 mpw, although at the top end of what I'm used to.

A lot of 800 and mile reps at 10k effort and some 200 and 400s at 5k.

PB is 3:58 from following the fairly relaxed boards novice plan, am excited about tackling a plan with such quality stuff in it.

On the tail end now of a 10 week base phase before it begins.

Won't really have a time target as such. Will be basing Marathon effort runs off LTHR, and will try to get a handle on a steady state heart rate.

A target should become clear a few weeks out, looking like around 3.30 at this point.

The idea being to hold that HR and effort for 22 miles or so.

Would love to know if anyone else has approached it this way.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119288748#Comment_119288748

You might want to stick a 10 mile or half in there to see where your at in addition to your LTHR numbers before deciding on your pace. Don't get too caught up in keeping your heart rate steady or within a range, conditions and other physiological changes can alter these metrics more than you would imagine.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289161#Comment_119289161

Cheers, yeah I have the race series 10m and half. I'll use the predicted MP those times will give as a reference and compare/contrast with the HR metrics.

I could be wildly wrong in my thinking here but on your second point, I've always thought that point holds more true to using pace as a guide, rather than effort.

Let's say I manage to get a good handle on what my steady state, marathon effort HR is. The conditions, physiological and weather etc, on the day will dictate what that pace is. But I *should* run the best time those conditions will allow.

Using pace, say set from predictions the half gives, which will be set at different conditions, am I not more prone to being wide of the mark?

Assume the half predicts 5.00 km pace, and I target that but on the day I don't find out that's too hot until 20 miles, or am capable of 4.48 but don't realise it.

Does running by effort not take care of that, and you end up running to what you're capable of on the day.

I'm wide open to flaws being highlighted in the thinking.

Lazare

Obviously it all depends on having accurate metrics.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289642#Comment_119289642

I think you are right to use effort (as measured by HR) as the guide from a training point of view, especially early in the programme. But at some point that effort is going to crystallise around a certain marathon pace, and at that point I think you are better off completing the plan (and running the race) based on pace (cross checking of course back to effort levels every now and then).But you will be confident that that pace is sustainable under most conditions as you will have trained through many types of conditions.

I don't think racing via HR is a good idea (if that's what you're suggesting, and maybe I'm taking you up wrong). It just seems too complicated! Plus I don't like racing with a chest strap. Adrenaline on the day might throw your HR off anyway.

If conditions are unusual you would of course adjust expectations and pace to suit.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119289642#Comment_119289642

Maybe your right, it was my understanding that a simple rule of thumb with lactate threshold and pacing accordingly is that your 10 mile or half race pace gives similar target data (pace wise). You could probably get a lactate test done for the Marathon the week before taper and do the race according to the results, sounds like a nice experiment to me. None of us here or even the best coaches can give you all the answers just personal thoughts on personal experiences. You know yourself better than anyone and nothing motivates better than proving others wrong(even strangers on the tinternet) ;-)

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291752#Comment_119291752

That's correct with threshold but if you were to run that test at the same pace but on one day its perfect conditions and the other day you've had ten pints the night before, no sleep and it's 25 degrees outside you'll get very different results. The only true measure you have is effort and learning how to run at the correct effort level is one of the best skills a runner can develop.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291068#Comment_119291068

Thanks D.

Yes, I am planning on wearing the strap. I don't think it will be complicated, I'll simply aim to hover around a certain HR. That's exactly how I've been running for the last three years, just the HR on the watch face, nothing else. I did an 8m aerobic run this morning and it's typical, I just never let the HR go above 130. I've gotten real used to running this way, and I feel I've gotten good at being in control of it.

Other than races I haven't been paying attention to pace while running since switching.

A concern may be that the strap will become uncomfortable, I've not ran more than 14 miles wearing it, but that will be found out on the longer runs. Main concern is it's a flawed approach.

Am real keen to give it a go though.

FinnC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292182#Comment_119292182

This is why I much prefer to use the Stryd power pod rather than HR. It’s a more consistent measure of effort than HR imo anyway.