Marathon Improvers Thread.

deisedude

Hi guys and gals, looking at doing Cork city marathon 2019 and trying to decide on a marathon plan. Ran my first marathon, DCM in 2017 and went out for 3:30 eventhough i had trained for 3:45 and was in a world of pain towards the end, collapsed with 200m to go and helped over the line for 3:46

Ideally would like to keep a speed session per week as I really enjoy it but not a gamebreaker. Definitely think I need some longer runs with marathon pace included. Looking at 50-60 miles per week max.

Current PB's
5K - 19:51
10K - 43:23 (have only ran 2 races at this distance)
10 Mile - 72:52
Half - 1:34:59
Marathon 3:46

Any suggestions of what plan would work best?

Kellygirl

deisedude wrote: »

Hi guys and gals, looking at doing Cork city marathon 2019 and trying to decide on a marathon plan. Ran my first marathon, DCM in 2017 and went out for 3:30 eventhough i had trained for 3:45 and was in a world of pain towards the end, collapsed with 200m to go and helped over the line for 3:46

Ideally would like to keep a speed session per week as I really enjoy it but not a gamebreaker. Definitely think I need some longer runs with marathon pace included. Looking at 50-60 miles per week max.

Current PB's
5K - 19:51
10K - 43:23 (have only ran 2 races at this distance)
10 Mile - 72:52
Half - 1:34:59
Marathon 3:46

Any suggestions of what plan would work best?

Would be well worth your while buying the book Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas I’d say. Even if you don’t follow the plans in it the book is very good.

Unthought Known

Kellygirl wrote: »

Would be well worth your while buying the book Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas I’d say. Even if you don’t follow the plans in it the book is very good.

+1 to this. I'd also recommend Meno's plan which has been used by quite a few with great results. Link is on the first post of this thread.

and still ricky villa

Yevon wrote: »

Can anyone tell me where the Meno plan is? I've seen a few recommend it, I'm thinking of following it for the Connemara Marathon next year.

There's a link on the first post in the thread

cullenswood

Yevon wrote: »

Can anyone tell me where the Meno plan is? I've seen a few recommend it, I'm thinking of following it for the Connemara Marathon next year.

I'd plus one on this plan. Used it for DCM this year and loved it. Nice variety and it had me well prepared.

Murph_D

deisedude wrote: »

Hi guys and gals, looking at doing Cork city marathon 2019 and trying to decide on a marathon plan. Ran my first marathon, DCM in 2017 and went out for 3:30 eventhough i had trained for 3:45 and was in a world of pain towards the end, collapsed with 200m to go and helped over the line for 3:46

Ideally would like to keep a speed session per week as I really enjoy it but not a gamebreaker. Definitely think I need some longer runs with marathon pace included. Looking at 50-60 miles per week max.

Current PB's
5K - 19:51
10K - 43:23 (have only ran 2 races at this distance)
10 Mile - 72:52
Half - 1:34:59
Marathon 3:46

Any suggestions of what plan would work best?

Hi there. My PBs are almost identical to yours, up to HM. Your marathon suggests a lack of endurance but nothing a good solid base building and carefully executed marathon block between now and June wouldn’t sort out. Curious why you trained for 3:45 last time out and then targeted a much faster time? Not surprised how it turned out! But marathon improvement is all about learning from past mistakes and building on the stuff you’ve done well. Any plan mentioned should be OK as long as you’re honest and realistic about ability.

deisedude

Murph_D wrote: »

Hi there. My PBs are almost identical to yours, up to HM. Your marathon suggests a lack of endurance but nothing a good solid base building and carefully executed marathon block between now and June wouldn’t sort out. Curious why you trained for 3:45 last time out and then targeted a much faster time? Not surprised how it turned out! But marathon improvement is all about learning from past mistakes and building on the stuff you’ve done well. Any plan mentioned should be OK as long as you’re honest and realistic about ability.

Haha stupidity would be the main reason! Don't know why really. One or 2 lads in the club said I'd be able for 3:30 so about 2 weeks out I said I'd go for it but looking back you are right, I didn't have the endurance

The Black Oil

Picked up on this point from OOnegative in the novices thread. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108632548&postcount=4580

How widely applicable is this?

OOnegative

The Black Oil wrote: »

Picked up on this point from OOnegative in the novices thread. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108632548&postcount=4580

How widely applicable is this?

Just to state that was merely my advice RE the marathons, loads do it. The rest I believe stands, open to correction obviously but a block of training for shorter distances never harmed any who log here past or present.

Swashbuckler

The Black Oil wrote: »

Picked up on this point from OOnegative in the novices thread. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108632548&postcount=4580

How widely applicable is this?

I'd completely agree with him to be honest.

Huzzah!

The Black Oil wrote: »

Picked up on this point from OOnegative in the novices thread. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108632548&postcount=4580

How widely applicable is this?

I'd agree too. The Hanson bros would caution against doing any more than three marathons in a two-year period.

They've a couple of articles that kind of touch on the issue:

https://hansonscoachingservices.com/just-ran-my-marathon-now-what-beginning-the-process-of-long-term-planning/

https://hansonscoachingservices.com/hcs-and-periodization-how-we-structure-training/

The Black Oil

Huzzah! wrote: »

https://hansonscoachingservices.com/hcs-and-periodization-how-we-structure-training/

Thanks, Huzzah! From this one, worth highlighting.

What happens when a person races the same distance over and over is that they will often become stagnant and plateau. The reasoning is because many times they simply lose balance in training and certain components become ignored for months on end.

For example, if all you do is 5k races, chances are you’ll avoid doing any work at marathon pace or anything really between an easy pace and lactate threshold. The problem is that you really aren’t providing any stress at a “high aerobic” level and limit the growth of your aerobic foundation. Instead, you may be trying to pull your fitness up by only trying to improve your VO2max and top end speed.

The Black Oil

Conference paper from some UCD folks, looking at potential PBs and a plan to reach same. If you're to nerding out.

Marathon Race Planning: A Case-Based Reasoning Approach

judeboy101

Any Irish marathons in April apart from connemarathon? I usually do royal canal but they are not running this year. Can't afford to go abroad.

Swashbuckler

judeboy101 wrote:

Any Irish marathons in April apart from connemarathon? I usually do royal canal but they are not running this year. Can't afford to go abroad.

Limerick! Well, May 5th.

judeboy101

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Limerick! Well, May 5th.

Plan on doing cork June bank hol so wanted early apr, but thanks. Is Limerick a nice race?

Swashbuckler

judeboy101 wrote:

Plan on doing cork June bank hol so wanted early apr, but thanks. Is Limerick a nice race?

Tralee Marathon is April 20th I believe but limited to 150 entrants I think. I've never run Limerick marathon but know the route. Depends what you mean by nice? Do you mean route, or crowd support or quality of organisation or flatness or all of the above?

judeboy101

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Tralee Marathon is April 20th I believe but limited to 150 entrants I think. I've never run Limerick marathon but know the route. Depends what you mean by nice? Do you mean route, or crowd support or quality of organisation or flatness or all of the above?

Flat and crowd?

Swashbuckler

judeboy101 wrote:

Flat and crowd?

Support in parts is great and in other parts is non existent. It's not Dublin I'll put it to you that way but it's still decent.

Its not the hilliest by any stretch but a few drags here and there and a couple of nasty enough hills particularly late in the day at mile 23ish

browne_rob5

judeboy101 wrote: »

Flat and crowd?

Limerick is pretty flat. There is a profile below the map in the link below. Its a potential PB course if the weather is good.

http://www.greatlimerickrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/BSHGLR-2018-Marathon-Route.pdf

Practically no crowd for the first half but it builds for the second half and there is a decent crowd approaching the finish. There is a good atmosphere in the city over the weekend as its tied in with Riverfest. I'd recommend running it.

silverharp

just a passing question, out and about, very occasionally I come across a jogger on the streets that makes the worst "flip flop" noise with their feet, does it matter? are they risking injury? do they have a poor running style?

healy1835

judeboy101 wrote: »

Flat and crowd?

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2677734087?share_unique_id=6

Decent crowd in spots, finish very good. Not an easy course but nothing too crazy in there. Drag outside the Gaelic Grounds late on is your biggest enemy

28064212

silverharp wrote: »

just a passing question, out and about, very occasionally I come across a jogger on the streets that makes the worst "flip flop" noise with their feet, does it matter? are they risking injury? do they have a poor running style?

Way, way, WAY too many variables involved to draw any sort of conclusions based on one single aspect of a running style. Even if you did have an accurate assessment of this particular apect, and there was a large scale study that said something like 90% of runners would increase their injury risk if they ran like that, it still wouldn't mean that they're not part of the 10% that would be fine

Murph_D

28064212 wrote: »

Way, way, WAY too many variables involved to draw any sort of conclusions based on one single aspect of a running style. Even if you did have an accurate assessment of this particular apect, and there was a large scale study that said something like 90% of runners would increase their injury risk if they ran like that, it still wouldn't mean that they're not part of the 10% that would be fine

Run that by me again?

silverharp

I heard in the meantime that it might be a deliberate running style that is meant to reduce overall impact, even has a name "chirunning"

http://www.irishrunner.ie/a-perfect-balance/

RayCun

silverharp wrote: »

I heard in the meantime that it might be a deliberate running style that is meant to reduce overall impact, even has a name "chirunning"

chi-running doesn't involve slapping your feet off the ground

28064212

Murph_D wrote: »

Run that by me again?

Too many non-specific pronouns :-)

Rephrased: Say there's a study that says "90% of runners who use the 'flip-flop' style of running will have an increased risk of injury" - that means, in general, it's probably a poor running style. However, for a given specific runner (e.g. silverharp's jogger), that individual may well fall in to the 10%, where this 'bad' running style isn't bad for them (or is possibly even beneficial)

Slow_Runner

Murph_D wrote: »

28064212 wrote: »

Way, way, WAY too many variables involved to draw any sort of conclusions based on one single aspect of a running style. Even if you did have an accurate assessment of this particular apect, and there was a large scale study that said something like 90% of runners would increase their injury risk if they ran like that, it still wouldn't mean that they're not part of the 10% that would be fine

Run that by me again?

I think what he means is if you are not getting injured then your running form - no matter how off it looks to everyone else - is perfect for you individually.

deisedude

The main question is would you go up to a stranger and tell them their running form is terrible?

Not sure I would

28064212

Slow_Runner wrote: »

I think what he means is if you are not getting injured then your running form - no matter how off it looks to everyone else - is perfect for you individually.

Not exactly. More like: just because a particular style is bad for a lot of runners, it doesn't mean it's bad for a specific individual.