Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

errlloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

I get that. I think I'm just sick of people pointing fingers every which way all the time. There is a middle ground where everyone steps up to what they should be doing. Not that I believe I'll ever see that.

Surely everyone stepping up to what they should be doing is not posting stuff that might be perceived as racist?

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And maybe, just maybe, there is a reason why some people trust some of their claims to our national team more than others.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe most Irish fans were in no way aware of the Stuff interview because it was before he arrived and from a completely different part of the world so not in their view.

Again, as you pointed out before, there is an onus on someone to ensure they are getting their message across properly. I'm not sure Aki did that in the Irish press and so that was always going to be a factor.

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

Surely everyone stepping up to what they should be doing is not posting stuff that might be perceived as racist?

On one side yes. On the other it's not taking something that isn't racist and making it so. Like I said, communication is a two way thing. Both sides have a responsibility to ensure the message is communicated, received and reacted to correctly. Making huge assumptions about what someone meant and throwing toys out of the pram off the back of those assumptions is not constructive.

The Rape of Lucretia

AdamD wrote: »

I've seen numerous articles and huge amounts of comments giving out about people not wanting Aki to play for Ireland. I'm yet to see people giving out about Aki being chosen, am I missing this completely. Seems like people going on and on about a perceived issue which isn't all that prevalent.

Nobody cares if he is just holding tackle bags. Welcome to it. Getting a cap though. That's le comble.
Certainly nothing racist at all in my complaints about the guy (it was through his mealy mouthed answers to questions about declaring for Ireland which ratched up the negativity towards him - effectively confirming he was still holding our for his first country of choice, but keeping his options open on Ireland as a 2nd best back up if that call didnt come) - I have been consistent in abhorring mercenaries of any non-Irish provenance getting Ireland caps.

Sephiral

It seems pretty obvious to me that the post was in reference to his questionable commitment to the Irish national team in the past. Every single rugby nation has a few islanders propping up their national squads now. I really do not think there is any dog whistle racism at play here.

Either way, it will be put to bed after next Saturday when he tries to separate the souls of some Saffas from their bodies.

Bridge93

In fairness it's pretty clear from that first interview that he viewed international rugby as his way of maximising his earnings be that in Ireland New Zealand or Samoa.
That viewpoint may well have changed as some have pointed out he hasn't taken the big money in France that has been offered since and would surely outweigh what an international cap would earn him.
Hopefully he hangs around and continues what's he's started here but his comments haven't filled me with confidence that he won't follow what josh Strauss did and cash in double time in the near future.

As I've said before I'm pretty skeptical of these guys all together and would still rather none of them played for Ireland but if they commit like Stander and Payne and like Aki has done so far, it's not for me to call who can and can't play when no rules are broken

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe most Irish fans were in no way aware of the Stuff interview because it was before he arrived and from a completely different part of the world so not in their view.

Again, as you pointed out before, there is an onus on someone to ensure they are getting their message across properly. I'm not sure Aki did that in the Irish press and so that was always going to be a factor.

No. It's not the same at all.

If you are accusing someone of never having said something then you are responsible for being correct. If they've said it, then you're just completely wrong. That's a boolean.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

But for me, the underlying problem is the perception that Aki is being treated differently (for whatever reason), but I don't think he is.

Remember the whole nonsense about Paul Kimmage (yes, I know) coming out against Stander playing for Ireland? The line then was that he's anti-Munster, didn't breathe a word about Payne, the Dublin meeja etc.

Go back further. Remember when Matt Williams said during the World Cup that Payne wasn't great in attack? I was called a racist for agreeing with him. Posters were lining up telling me that because I didn't think Payne was much of a threat with ball in hand, I was a racist.

All the project players have been given some level of stick. It's completely open to interpretation and your own spin as to why they get it.

People use these things for their own agendas. That's just the way of it. This thread is just more evidence of it. The guy who hates Irish people, somewhat ironically, thinks we're all racists. Love that one. The Connacht lads are beacons of racial sensitivity all of a sudden.

This will all blow over at about 7pm on Saturday week, there'll be some lovely photos of Aki clutching the IRFU crest, maybe draped in a tricolour after the game if we win, and then we'll all move on to the next earth-shattering outrage.

Who hates Irish people? And who has said anyone on here is a racist?

Aki has taken way more flack than any other project player. That is a fact.

Erik Shin

ClanofLams wrote: »

No he didn't, he said it was his first choice before he arrived.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9938620/Bundee-Aki-targets-Irish-jersey-as-he-quits-NZ

No, he actually said that playing for NZ was what he dreamed of.
His story changed after he arrived here as his star rose a little and he left the door open for other nations , let's not try to paint a picture that we were his first choice or even second choice ....but he's here and damn welcome to play for us as he brings something different to the setup

Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

Who hates Irish people? And who has said anyone on here is a racist?

Aki has taken way more flack than any other project player. That is a fact.

No, it isn't, it's an opinion, a perception.

b.gud

A lot of the posts about this subject are down to personal opinions and in most of them, unless you're completely blinkered by your own opinion you can see a point to them.

But the below quote is 100% true, except you forgot the importance of the anthem as Swiwi pointed out

Former Former wrote: »

This will all blow over at about 7pm on Saturday week, there'll be some lovely photos of Aki clutching the IRFU crest, maybe draped in a tricolour after the game if we win, and then we'll all move on to the next earth-shattering outrage.

Erik Shin

ClanofLams wrote: »

Who hates Irish people? And who has said anyone on here is a racist?

Aki has taken way more flack than any other project player. That is a fact.

Genuinely, I'd say Stander has had more flak...and still does.

irishbucsfan

Erik Shin wrote: »

No, he actually said that playing for NZ was what he dreamed of.
His story changed after he arrived here as his star rose a little and he left the door open for other nations , let's not try to paint a picture that we were his first choice or even second choice ....but he's here and damn welcome to play for us as he brings something different to the setup

CJ Stander said playing for South Africa was his dream. I’m sure every project player held similar aspirations.

connemara man

irishfan9 wrote: »

He shouldn't play for ireland, not because of his skin colour but because he isn't irish, simple as that.

Same applies for any non irish passport holder.

What about Best or Trimble or Henderson?

Erik Shin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

CJ Stander said playing for South Africa was his dream. I’m sure every project player held similar aspirations.

True, but even at the start of this year there were interviews with Aki where he said he wasn't sure who he wants to play for .
Stander nailed his colours to the mast at the outset and never wavered

irishbucsfan

Erik Shin wrote: »

True, but even at the start of this year there were interviews with Aki where he said he wasn't sure who he wants to play for .
Stander nailed his colours to the mast at the outset and never wavered

So the problem is not that Aki didn’t say he wanted to play for Ireland. Nor was it that he also wanted to play for New Zealand. It’s that the number of times he said it wasn’t enough.

Seems like the goalposts have moved a long way.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No. It's not the same at all.

If you are accusing someone of never having said something then you are responsible for being correct. If they've said it, then you're just completely wrong. That's a boolean.

Indeed. No account should be made of any reason why someone might be mistaken. None. They are wrong, end of.

A fine example of the kind of polarising nonsense I was talking about. :rolleyes:

Erik Shin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the problem is not that Aki didn’t say he wanted to play for Ireland. Nor was it that he also wanted to play for New Zealand. It’s that the number of times he said it wasn’t enough.

Seems like the goalposts have moved a long way.

Now now, don't be getting narky with me
I'm all for project players, always said that, I was against the 5 years rule .. Aki was probably considering representing somebody else this year.... that's not an issue for me.... but it may be for others ...and for some ex players too it seems

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Indeed. No account should be made of any reason why someone might be mistaken. None. They are wrong, end of.

A fine example of the kind of polarising nonsense I was talking about. :rolleyes:

No. I can see why an account should be made of it.

But it doesn't change that the fact is entirely wrong and any argument based on it has very little value. Regardless of how they arrived at the conclusion.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the problem is not that Aki didn’t say he wanted to play for Ireland. Nor was it that he also wanted to play for New Zealand. It’s that the number of times he said it wasn’t enough.

Seems like the goalposts have moved a long way.

The goalposts didn't move.

Telling stuff.co.nz three years ago that he'd play for Ireland is utterly irrelevant because nobody in Ireland (outside the rugby hardcore) is even aware of that.

If he'd told RTE, or the Irish Times, or Off the Ball, anytime in the last 12 months that he was dying to play for Ireland, then it would be a different situation. But he didn't.

I can understand why he didn't, and anyone who was even half awake would realise he wouldn't have got a new three-year contract without a commitment to the national team, but the fact remains that he chose not to nail his colours to the mast publicly. Of course that plays into perceptions of him.

Interested Observer

Erik Shin wrote: »

True, but even at the start of this year there were interviews with Aki where he said he wasn't sure who he wants to play for .
Stander nailed his colours to the mast at the outset and never wavered

Stander had no future in professional rugby back in South Africa. His options were move to Ireland or retire basically. There was nothing else to nail his colours to.

Erik Shin

Interested Observer wrote: »

Stander had no future in professional rugby back in South Africa. His options were move to Ireland or retire basically. There was nothing else to nail his colours to.

He could have been a waterboy, best quality H2O delivery technician the Saffers ever had....in fact it's a huge loss to their international setup

The difference between Stander, Payne and Aki is that of the three, Aki is either the most honest or has the worst PR.

Neither Stander nor Payne were running around rugby pitches in their teens thinking about playing for Ireland. That they now play for Ireland has far more to do with circumstance than it does with original intent.

Learning the 11 or so lines of Amhrán na bhFiann doesn't change this fact.

A lot of what we are seeing with Aki is down to it being yet *another* project player. Much of it is down to simple provincialism (those suggesting that Stander is in anyway different to Aki for example) and a very small amount of it is down I would imagine to the colour of Aki's skin.

Eitherway, this is all going to go quiet if Aki has a stormer against South Africa. People care more about winning and one project player replacing another (Aki for Payne) isn't going to materially detract from that.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

No, it isn't, it's an opinion, a perception.

Stander is the only other player who has taken any personalised attention on this issue and that was mainly all Kimmage. Matt Williams saying Payne wasn't a good attacker is irrelevant.

Aki has had off the ball segments, indo pieces, etc. I'm not saying it's down to race btw, I think it's a combination of factors. Some people don't like his past comments, as much as I find that illogical. Some Leinster leaning pundits don't like that Henshaw Ringrose axis might be broken up at international level, some Munster leaning analysts don't like his inclusion at the same time Zebo is being excluded. Donal Lenihan said this week Aki's inclusion while Zebo is out reflects the warped nature of international rugby.

That might be so but Donal must have forgot he was against the head a year ago saying Schmidt needed to get him involved as soon as possible. There was no need for lenihan to single out Aki, he could have just said project players. I just find the level of attention Aki has gotten rather distasteful. And I said Stander shouldn't have been singled out by Kimmage at the time so it is not Connacht bias. If someone has an issue with project players, grand there is a reasonable argument to be made on the topic but personalising it to one player isn't a good look.

On a side note, as far as the provinces are concerned, Aki is absolutely front and centre critical to Connacht. John Muldoon embodies Connacht rugby but Aki is the one who will take them into the future provided he remains out west.

This is also worth considering when you look at his inclusion in Ireland. His last contract was a substantial commitment and I'd imagine he could have made more elsewhere to be honest. It's good that one of the Connacht provincial leaders is involved with Ireland for both the country and the province.

Personally I'm glad the rule is 5 years now instead of 3. I have no issue with Aki playing and I'm excited to see what he can do with the Irish pack in front of him. He could be a very important player for us moving into the next world cup.

ClanofLams

Erik Shin wrote: »

Now now, don't be getting narky with me
I'm all for project players, always said that, I was against the 5 years rule .. Aki was probably considering representing somebody else this year.... that's not an issue for me.... but it may be for others ...and for some ex players too it seems

Aki signed up with Connacht until 2020 over a year ago. He wasn't considering playing with anyone else since then, at the very least.

MaybeMaybe

The biggest problem I have with Aki is the treatment he's given referees in the past. But I haven't seen much rugby so far this season, has he improved?

MaybeMaybe

MaybeMaybe wrote: »

The biggest problem I have with Aki is the treatment he's given referees in the past. But I haven't seen much rugby so far this season, has he improved?

POM got told off around 4 times by Owens at the weekend. I actually was surprised he wasn't further reprimanded. Aki is no worse than SOB or Sexton in this regards and the only difference between those players and POM at the weekend is that POM was wearing the captains band.

Aki will be fine.

AdamD

Sexton's no angel either, coming from a Leinster fan. Not sure these supposed Aki discipline issues are that big a deal.

stephen_n

Interested Observer wrote: »

I could be wrong as I'm not actually compiling every piece of news or online comment but the sense I get is there's a lot more focus on Aki playing for Ireland than there was for Payne or Stander, and that focus is mostly in a negative tone. And it makes me wonder why that is exactly.

From a personal perspective, it has to to do with the interview he gave before coming here, when he basically said he was shopping for the best international offer and I suspect that is the same for a lot of people. Also scroll back and I think you will find there was every bit as much of an issue when Stander came along, that's probably an opinion bias.

swiwi_ wrote: »

Skin colour pure and simple.

People think “South Sea Islander”. They don’t think Kiwi and they certainly don’t think Irish.

Well then clearly race is an issue for you and reflects your viewpoints, I never considered his skin colour once, till it was brought up by people like you on here.