N4 - Mullingar to Rooskey [route options published]

Standard Toaster

Just this nugget a few days ago but nothing new

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2024-05-16a.146

Pete_Cavan

Update email sent out yesterday;

The second public consultation for the project, ‘Route Corridor Options’, was held in February/March 2021. Due to funding restrictions, work on the project slowed, however the project is now nearing completion of the Phase 2 (Option Selection) process.  The Route Corridor Options have been appraised in accordance with TII Guidelines and the new Transport Appraisal Framework (TAF). All previous work has also undergone a review and has been updated to align with changes in policy and standards, including TAF. An Emerging Preferred Route Corridor has now been identified.

 …

On Tuesday 2nd July 2024, we will be launching our virtual public consultation via our project website: www.n4mullingartolongford.ie 

This will present further information on the project and will include an interactive mapping tool that will allow you to examine the proposals in further detail.  Alternatively, a series of in-person consultation events will also take place in Longford, Mullingar and Edgeworthstown.  Further information on these events is set out below:

·        Longford Arms Hotel N39 FK26:                     Tuesday 2nd July 2024                   2pm-8pm

·        Mullingar Park Hotel N91 A4EP:                      Wednesday 3rd July 2024              2pm–8pm

·        Edgeworthstown Library N39 F7Y8:                 Thursday 4th July 2024                 2pm-8pm

Should be interesting…

Standard Toaster

If you were a betting man, which one?
Route Corridor Option 1 (Navy) looks to me as the obvious choice.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305674#Comment_122305674

That was pretty much the route that was selected the first time round, around 2010, I believe. If chosen, that would take it to within a km of my new home. Not ideal but I'd imagine that the road surface would be quieter than what exists currently between Edgeworthstown and Longford.

spacetweek

A kilometre is fairly far for a road to be from your house, but I suppose it depends on the topography.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122310628#Comment_122310628

The local road is about 100m from the house but it's a very very quiet road. The current N4 and nearest R road are both over 2km away but I can still hear the hum of traffic if there's a light wind from the direction of either road, during the otherwise quiet night time.

Rulmeq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122310628#Comment_122310628

We lived about 950m from the M4 (the bad section that they haven't resurfaced yet as they are waiting to upgrade it I guess) the noise levels would entirely depend on the wind direction. We were south of it, so only heard it on the days the wind would blow from the north. On the days we could hear it though, it didn't matter about anything else, there were other houses, trees etc in between us, but we could hear it as if we were on top of it (fortunately there were maybe a dozen days a year when we got northerlys), all other times it was as if it wasn't there.

SeanW

I just had a look over the maps and one thing I noticed is that the Yellow and Teal routes offer a Northern bypass of Edgeworthstown. That is, with these routes, people coming from the Granard/Cavan direction looking to get to the N4 would not have to go through the town anymore, as traffic from the South on the N55 can now avoid the town using the existing relief road to go onto the N4.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322147#Comment_122322147

Well, we'll find out in just over 5 hours time!

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2024/0702/1457625-n4-project/

Standard Toaster

Looks like the site went live at 1230

The expected Navy route selected.

https://consultation.n4mullingartolongford.ie/

Jp177

So that's it then, I assume this last round of consultation is box ticking, they're not going to change from this route…..???

Now we can focus on wondering if it will actually be built.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322147#Comment_122322147

This was a good idea, but they went with a route south of E’town.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329982#Comment_122329982

Sweet Jesus. Their route map is overlaid on a map so old that the N5 Longford bypass (opened 2012) isn’t indicated. I checked for that road specifically to ensure the new road would interface correctly with it. (Hint: it doesn’t).

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331857#Comment_122331857

I'm planning to make a submission online to raise that exact point. If you do the same that might add some weight.

road_high

Often drive this road- while it’s actually not bad for the most part when it’s (rarely) quiet- the non hard shouldered bit between Longford and Edgeworthstown is probably the worst part- but it’s all just way over capacity. Last day I was on it nearly a months ago I remarked how big the volume of trucks is - not surprising I suppose as there’s quite a bit of industry along that corridor. 3/4/5 in convoys which slows things down a lot.
It’s grand having all these fancy plans but without the political will and drive to build I just can’t see this happening anytime soon and at that they’ll drag it out and water it down into smaller phases- sad but I’m a realist and I’ve seen enough in my 40 years to know what to expect (or not).

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331857#Comment_122331857

Just to point out, the interactive map does include the N5 Longford Bypass. Still, not great that the other one doesnt. Agreed that it's a poor interface

KrisW1001

Yes, it's strange not to run the new road along the path of the existing bypass here, but it does have the advantage of keeping local traffic off "new N4". (And it won't force traffic back through the town during construction)

I told ya

Can't wait to see the detailed design for the N4/N5 interchange.

I'll wager a roundabout, any advances? Anyone, traffic lights?

I'll probably be 6ft under by the time it's built.

spacetweek

Some would say this is overbuilding but I always assumed there would be two junctions, one for Longford town the other for the N5. It would feature a link road getting you from the N5 junction on the new N4 to the existing N4/N5 roundabout.

The arrangement they are planning will mean that the new N4 to N5 routing will not be intuitive and I’d be afraid a lot of people will go through the middle of Longford town as a result.

spacetweek

I see now that there is a "side road" treatment planned on the new N4 with R198 which leads directly to the new N5 Longford Bypass. They might signpost you to go that way to get to the N5 but it should be treated better than a side road junction.

joeymcg

I would imagine the current N4 bypass of Longford Town will be re designated N5 after opening of the new scheme. So whatever roundabout? grade separated junction? on the new N4 route will have a signpost of Longford Town via N5 route. I would guess the new link road will be somewhere between Padraic Colum roundabout and the R194 (Abbott) roundabout

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122332965#Comment_122332965

It’s grand having all these fancy plans but without the political will and drive to build I just can’t see this happening anytime soon and at that they’ll drag it out and water it down into smaller phases

That is inevitably going to happen. Assuming it gets planning approval, it will be looking for €0.5bn+ around the end of this decade when there are also several billion worth of other road projects earmarked for construction (M20, N11, N2 x 2, N24 x 2, N13/14/15, etc.). Given the cost involved, the Business Case here is going to be weak as the two main towns are already bypassed.

The most I could see happening is the southern end to north of Rathowen being built. I could see a programme of buying out houses along the road followed by online upgrades being more likely, particularly as environmental factors make large scale new road builds unpalatable.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337603#Comment_122337603

If you drive the road frequently, you'll notice that many of the houses alongside (between Mullingar and Longford at least) are already long term vacant/derelict. I suspect there already is a programme of buying whatever comes to market.

The business case is likely to be made on safety, not town bypasses - with Ryan out of Transport within months the bypass-towns-but-nothing-else approach that has cut the Carrick on Shannon scheme so much will probably be gone.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337611#Comment_122337611

Yes several of the houses are already vacant and I suspect several more will be after the current occupant ceases to live there. There really should be a formal process of preventing continued occupation of these houses beyond the current occupants. After that, even if you bought out another 20 at €0.5m each (i.e. way above market value), it would only cost €10m. CPO'ing the 52km route for the new road would cost more.

Safety doesn't mean a new road is needed, certainly not if the cost is €500m and major environmental impact. If safety is the issue to be solved, then just lower the speed limit and install average speed cameras.

Ryan going isn't going to change anything. The direction of travel is clear, between cost and planning issues, this road simply isn't going to happen.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338346#Comment_122338346

Limit changes and speed cameras won't fix the road being over capacity; which is a significant element of the safety problem. It has to be updated to DC, with the three villages bypassed.

(AADT just beyond Rathowen is ~13,800 with a pretty high 10% HGV.

LOS D for a T1 single (most of this is T1, albeit not all) is 11,600 and indeed 11,600 is the level at which TII start indicating T2 dual instead for new projects - and that would be predicted AADT for a future design year; whereas this is at 13,800 now)

Retrofitting T2 dual online would require three village bypasses, very significant volumes of access roads and the fitting of overbridges for some of the existing junctions. Whether this would be any cheaper than 0.5bn is questionable.

There appears to be elements of online or possibly online in the preferred route corridor as is; presumably where there aren't huge constraints in place.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338346#Comment_122338346

The current 100 km/h speed limit is fine and on the very rare time that I don't have a slow vehicle in front, I'll set the cruise control to 104 (real speed will be 100) for all sections with that limit and never have to adjust my speed. I'm all for speed cameras everywhere as is the case now. Poor driver behaviour and/or excessive speeding are the main reasons for incidents, lowering the speed limit will not stop this in any way. A lowering of a speed limit does not turn an inherently bad driver into a good one.

As mentioned, the issue is that there are two many vehicles for the road in question plus the fact that it's single lane means that overtaking is often a dangerous thing to carry out plus the places where you can (safely) do so are very limited. A lot of HGVs use the road too and they are generally limited to 90km/h meaning long lines of vehicles often occur due to an inability to pass said HGVs.

Additionally, some drivers drive very slowly on the N4 for whatever reason. I'm talking as low as 70/80 km/h on a clear day with good weather. Not only will these cars drive slowly but they rarely move over to the hard shoulder to allow vehicles pass by on clear straight stretches. You'd nearly swear their thought process is "I'm driving at this nice slow speed and nobody else is going to drive faster".

One last annoying thing to note is the driver who will be heading eastbound on the single lane section of the N4 towards Dublin who will consistently drive at 80/90 km/h despite the driving lanes being massive. As soon as the driver hits the dual carriageway, he/she speeds up to the limit or above for absolutely no logical reason. If anything, you'd think the driver would slow further as the driving lanes are narrower on the dual carriageway compared to the single lanes further west. I might have sat behind this driver from Edgeworthstown or before and have not been able to safely pass and then as soon as I reach the dualler, the car is now driving faster than me. I can't get my head around that at all.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338430#Comment_122338430

Like I said; "the most I could see happening is the southern end to north of Rathowen being built".

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338702#Comment_122338702

I doubt AADT falls off that significantly before Longford.

After Longford, no counter til fairly far away and it has dropped below 8k by then.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338588#Comment_122338588

The "70km/h everywhere" crowd who overtake you in the 50 zones if you have recently passed them doing 70 in the 100 zones are another issue here, when the road is quiet enough for this to be possible of course.

spacetweek

Very little of the new road will be on online so I’m not sure why some of you are talking about vacant houses and demolishing buildings.

“…online upgrades being more likely, particularly as environmental factors make large scale new road builds unpalatable.”

Online upgrades are serious safety hazards as they necessarily create vast numbers of side road accesses which might come with median breaks. We need to make sure that environmental factors (which you could say about any transport project) don’t get in the way of large road projects in future.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338764#Comment_122338764

The environmental impact of the vast amount of concrete required for overbridges on online retrofits can't be ignored either.

If you did this online, you couldn't use roundabouts in cases where roundabouts will be used on an offline build. There's still land take, there's still earthworks, there's still structures to build.

Online retrofitting is not cheap, not easy and not guaranteed to have any lower environmental impact. But it doesn't look as problematic from a "no new roads" perspective - something that shouldn't matter once Ryan is gone from that role. Even if the Greens survive in Government they'll never get Transport again.

There are sections of the N4 which are 1990s, WS2/Type 1 SC, offline new builds which should be converted online; but one such stretch was removed from the C-O-S bypass route!

Pete_Cavan

Eamon Ryan is irrelevant here, his departure isn't going to change requirements in relation to EISs, PSC, road funding availability, etc. several years from now.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339265#Comment_122339265

He's the one pushing the idea of town bypasses being acceptable; full schemes not - for his own personal political aims.

This will pass an EIS and meet the PSC; funding is the only potential issue.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339277#Comment_122339277

But whats proposed here is a "full scheme", not just town bypasses so what influence from eamon Ryan's personal political aims are you seeing here?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339375#Comment_122339375

The idea that it'll fail to go anywhere. Once he's gone; that won't be an issue. And hopefully the missing bits of the C-O-S scheme can then go to planning - they need to keep pushing with the existing amputated scheme though.

Bypasses + online upgrades are not the answer here, and the only reason they would be seen as the way to do it is to get around Ryan.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339443#Comment_122339443

If Ryan was the issue you suggest, then the N4 project wouldn't still be 52km long.

Th issue for this scheme is that it will have to pass increasingly stringent planning requirements including aligning with national and international environmental policies, needs to show a sufficient Business Case to justify the half a billion Euro cost, and will be competing with multiple other large projects for funding and resources. None of that changes after Ryan goes.

spacetweek

Ok, it will, but the worst that could happen is that it slips into the mid-late 2030s. Still gets built eventually anyway.

Kermit.de.frog

Hopefully common sense prevails and it's the natural extension to the M4 as a motorway.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340537#Comment_122340537

It will never meet the AADT requirements to be a motorway, and indeed the M4 ends significantly before it.

It needs to be a T2DC and hopefully that is what we get, the entire way to Sligo.

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340652#Comment_122340652

I agree a motorway is unlikely but AADT wouldn't be the best argument to use. This stretch of the N4 is busier than parts of the N20, which is due to be replaced by motorway in its entirety.

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340537#Comment_122340537

The man is nothing if not consistent. And unrealistic

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122340652#Comment_122340652

This is why you build for the future and connectivity. Accepting second rate for the main route to the northwest when we should be supporting Donegal and Sligo development - not just in practice but in principle - is not acceptable and shouldn't be.

Ireland should not be accepting second rate roads on any strategic route like that.

Zero ambition sums Ireland up which is why it is an utterly below mediocre place in regards to literally everything. A disease we need to get over.

Your post sums it up. All about why you can't do something.

joeymcg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341219#Comment_122341219

I see it from both sides I really do. Does traffic levels justify Motorway between Gort and Rathmorrissey? I don't think so. Or Rathmorrissey and Annagh Hill, or Tuam for that matter. Don't think so. But we're going into a different era where spending everywhere is under the microscope as well as environment super-consciousness.

I honestly believe the 2+2 Collooney to Castlebaldwin, the Rooskey bypass and this 2+2 scheme (if it's built) will be sufficient for 50 years. Now if Ireland begins to plan for the next 50 years we are doing well, we've never done this before. Learn to walk before you can run.

There is a substantial saving to be made between choosing 2+2 over Motorway. I just think for 2+2s to work you will need very regular laybys for cars breaking down/EVs running out of juice.

roadmaster

Whats the plan for the tie in with the Mullingar Bypass as i think there is a bit of a pinch point under the last overbridge.

road_high

I know a strictly speaking drivers don’t have to do this (and I know you’re not permitted drive that hard shoulder) but on a road like this with much very generous hard shoulders it would really help traffic flow if slow moochers courteously and safely just moved in briefly and let people off. I don’t see why it’s such a big problem- I’d much prefer do that and safer than 1/2 km of frustrated cars up my car if I was them. It’s quite noticeable in the N4 due to the big traffic volumes and decent quality of much of the sections

spacetweek

I had hoped for a long time that for the sake of national unity this road should be a motorway with the Mullingar bypass upgraded to motorway but there’s no chance of that – the new road seems to subsume the old one in some areas and there are large numbers of “side road treatments” which may or may not provide access to the new road. All of this prevents it being a motorway.

Now, we just need to get the full Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod scheme back in play, and not just the CoS town bypass element, and we’ll be sorted.

KrisW1001

I expect no new Type 1 DC, with Type 2 DC for the rest. I am hoping that "Side Road treatments" means the creation of parallel access roads for existing entrances: the high number of entrances is what makes the current road dangerous - in terms of width, sightlines and curves alone, it wouldn't be so bad. (the Carrick-on-Shannon project has far more problems in terms of alignment).

Upgrading the Mullingar bypass to blue signs just creates problems for non-permitted traffic (e.g. tractors - this is a rural town after all).

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122349417#Comment_122349417

Yes, I do know that a driver has no obligation to move over to let a line a traffic behind to pass but it's just a general courtesy thing. I was towing a small trailer from Lucan to a little bit beyond Edgeworthstown yesterday so I was not permitted to drive beyond 80 km/h however I moved over to the hard shoulder at every opportunity that I could safely do so at least a dozen times and I never had more than two cars behind me, waiting to pass. In fact, I overtook two cars, one before Ballinalack and the other before Rathowen. Both were doing no more than 70 km/h, both were almost hugging the dotted line in the centre of the road and both of them were up my arse by the time I was half way through each of the villages.

Literally the most annoying type of driver.

highdef

The person I spoke to at the Mullingar consultation earlier in the week said that where the side roads were marked on the map is where the roads will continue to be accessible from either side but they would not connect with the new N4. Access to/from the new N4 will only be at the purple coloured junctions. He also said the dual carriageway build will be similar to the Rooskey bypass and the speed limit will be 100 km/h, stating that the aim of the road is to Improve safety with any faster journey times being incidental.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122351023#Comment_122351023

I know it’s basic awareness and common courtesy as you say. It’s not just an N4 issue but ok all national routes but most noticeable here due to the huge traffic volumes. Also get the other ditherers who refuse to pass a vehicle even when they pull into let them