Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

boardsuser1

I asked Dan Boyle to consider joining the forum.

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/928625172395028480

boardsuser1

United opposition to the M28 motorway

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/united-opposition-to-180m-m28-route-462507.html

zetalambda

Dan Boyle wrote:

(On Twitter)

I think a port without a rail link is a nonsense. Any enhanced road need not be motorway standard. A new road trajectory involving the airport is what should be proposed.

A rail link to Ringaskiddy following the trajectory of the old Blackrock Passage railway is possible but not economically viable for the foreseeable future. I still don't get the point of connecting to the airport although an alternative route going behind the airport and linking to junction 1 on the South Ring Road, primarily for HGV's like the Port tunnel isn't such a bad idea but you'd need the N40 North Ring Road in place first.

boardsuser1

Seamus McGrath is opposed to the M28.

Electioneering perhaps?

That is all I can see from politicians so far in this.

zetalambda

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

United opposition to the M28 motorway

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/united-opposition-to-180m-m28-route-462507.html

"Ms Gordon was also concerned about the risk to bats in the nearby Bloomfield Wood."

boardsuser1

zetalambda wrote: »

"Ms Gordon was also concerned about the risk to bats in the nearby Bloomfield Wood."

There’s bats in Bloomfield? :eek: I really need to get out there more often without the truck :pac:

marno21

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

I asked Dan Boyle to consider joining the forum.

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/928625172395028480

Hi Dan,

The above post was a political reference. I have removed the post for the sake of the debate. Please join us and share your views here, to many of the people you represent. I would be deeply unhappy if I was responsible for you not joining the debate. Apologies

I will take no further part in this thread during the Oral Hearing bar mod duties because I am astounded at the level of downright nonsense coming out at the oral hearing. "It's only a motorway for the port", "the Bloomfield Interchange is a bottleneck so we should jam the Kinsale Road Roundabout even more" etc.

Regards,
marno21

Middle Man

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Seamus McGrath is opposed to the M28.

Electioneering perhaps?

That is all I can see from politicians so far in this.

It's all comes down to property values IMO!

boardsuser1

Middle Man wrote: »

It's all about property values IMO!

Would they actually devalue as a result? Property value is something I would be clueless on

SeanW

zetalambda wrote: »

"Ms Gordon was also concerned about the risk to bats in the nearby Bloomfield Wood."

I wonder what Ms. Gordon's view of windmills is? Windmills are an existential threat to bat populations right across the developed world - they're worse than White Nose Syndrome which in itself is a grave, extinction level threat.

I assume the people objecting to motorways on the basis of danger to bats have an equally long history of objecting to wind farms? I mean, anything else would be hypocritical.

Middle Man

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Would they actually devalue as a result? Property value is something I would be clueless on

I'd say in most cases, actually no! In any case, with the electric car coming in the nearer future (2030 target for complete changeover from diesel/petrol), noise levels and pollution will be much less of a factor. That said, I'm no expert in property valuation but to me, we need to get over this property obsession!

boardsuser1

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/928752244194979841

L1011

Dan is pandering to potential voters rather than having any actual Green concern here. And as we saw with a (possibly self appointed) "rep" for the "Steering Group", they are concerned about house prices and nothing else.

Wrapping NIMBYism up with faux concern doesn't stop it being NIMBYism.

Opposing improved access to a port wouldn't go down well back in Burtonport! Exiled Islander as I am myself.

Middle Man

If this road is refused, then this country has a serious decision to make. Property ownership is our number one enemy - look at the housing and transport crisis that it is causing - we are a laughing stock with this 'The Field' mentality. It is time to dissolve all freehold title and change it to leasehold where all land is in state ownership - this way, you cut out the middle guy and get things done!

L1011

Middle Man wrote: »

If this road is refused, then this country has a serious decision to make. Property ownership is our number one enemy - look at the housing and transport crisis that it is causing - we are a laughing stock with this 'The Field' mentality. It is time to dissolve all freehold title and change it to leasehold where all land is in state ownership - this way, you cut out the middle guy and get things done!

Leaseholders/tenants are allowed object to things too - wouldn't change anything here. Its also clearly unconstitutional as well as impractical.

Middle Man

L1011 wrote: »

Leaseholders/tenants are allowed object to things too - wouldn't change anything here. Its also clearly unconstitutional as well as impractical.

Of course anyone can object but the main point is that if housing arrangements are more flexible in line with modern employment trends, then it would be easier to move houses to make way for infrastructure - if there is no private land ownership, then there's no illusionary value to any property (land in particular). If houses/apartments have to be knocked, then just build replacement units first! In Dublin for example, many low rise areas could be raised and replaced with higher density development with plenty of room made for proper infrastructure and adequate social facilities.

BTW, we do need a new constitution in any case.

AugustusMinimus

The refusing of this road could have consequences much worse than Apple being refused permission in Athenry.

There are a lot of pharma jobs in Ringaskiddy and the reality is that companies will move jobs at a whim even if they have significant capital outlays over the years.

Be interesting to see what the politicians would do if it resulted in layoffs. Would be a national scandal.

Golfer50

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The refusing of this road could have consequences much worse than Apple being refused permission in Athenry.

There are a lot of pharma jobs in Ringaskiddy and the reality is that companies will move jobs at a whim even if they have significant capital outlays over the years.

Be interesting to see what the politicians would do if it resulted in layoffs. Would be a national scandal.

Examiner article above . .
"Meanwhile, a spokesman for life science companies Biomarin, DePuy, GSK, Janssen, Novartis, Pfizer, Recordati, Carbon Group and Hovione, which employ over 5,000, confirmed they backed the residents’ group."

Baldilocks

Golfer50 wrote: »

Examiner article above . .
"Meanwhile, a spokesman for life science companies Biomarin, DePuy, GSK, Janssen, Novartis, Pfizer, Recordati, Carbon Group and Hovione, which employ over 5,000, confirmed they backed the residents’ group."

that refers to the route through Ringaskiddy, not the project in general.
not the first time the NIMBY's have stretched the truth!!

As for a being opposed to the project on environmental concerns - cement/concrete production is a decidedly environmentally unfriendly activity, proposing that the motorway is re-routed to a a route that is at least twice the length of the current preferred route, and will be all new - another fine example of horse-feathers from the NIMBYS

AugustusMinimus

Baldilocks wrote: »

Golfer50 wrote: »

Examiner article above . .
"Meanwhile, a spokesman for life science companies Biomarin, DePuy, GSK, Janssen, Novartis, Pfizer, Recordati, Carbon Group and Hovione, which employ over 5,000, confirmed they backed the residents’ group."

that refers to the route through Ringaskiddy, not the project in general.
not the first time the NIMBY's have stretched the truth!!

As for a being opposed to the project on environmental concerns - cement/concrete production is a decidedly environmentally unfriendly activity, proposing that the motorway is re-routed to a a route that is at least twice the length of the current preferred route, and will be all new - another fine example of horse-feathers from the NIMBYS

The group have complained about the destruction of the “historic” Mulcon Valley. Yet have no issue with the same amount of Valley being destroyed between Carrigaline and Ballinhassig as part of their alternative route. A route which no one will use.

PlainDanBoyle

This is what the Irish Times reported of my submission on Tuesday. It only represents half of my argument. In that I pointed out many of the inconsistencies of previous Bord Pleanala decisions in the area.

Former Green Party TD Dan Boyle said upgrading the N28 represented a further imbalance between investment in road infrastructure and public transport which had been weighted towards the former in Cork over the past 40 years.
Mr Boyle pointed out that despite visionary plans such as the Land Use Transportation Study (LUTS) in 1978 and the Cork Area Strategic Plan(CASP) in 2001, there had been little investment in public transport with the re-opening of the Midleton rail line being the only such investment.
This contrasted with the situation in Dublin where investment in public transport had led to the establishment of the DART and the LUAS, he said, adding that it reflected “a poverty of thinking” when it came to public transport in Cork. Upgrading the N28 to a motorway was evidence of the same approach.
Mr Boyle acknowledged that the upgrade to a motorway was being driven in part by the desire to service industry in the Lower Harbour area but such development should have been located on the eastern side of Cork Harbour where there was an existing rail link to Cobh.

snotboogie

PlainDanBoyle wrote: »

This is what the Irish Times reported of my submission on Tuesday. It only represents half of my argument. In that I pointed out many of the inconsistencies of previous Bord Pleanala decisions in the area.

Former Green Party TD Dan Boyle said upgrading the N28 represented a further imbalance between investment in road infrastructure and public transport which had been weighted towards the former in Cork over the past 40 years.
Mr Boyle pointed out that despite visionary plans such as the Land Use Transportation Study (LUTS) in 1978 and the Cork Area Strategic Plan(CASP) in 2001, there had been little investment in public transport with the re-opening of the Midleton rail line being the only such investment.
This contrasted with the situation in Dublin where investment in public transport had led to the establishment of the DART and the LUAS, he said, adding that it reflected “a poverty of thinking” when it came to public transport in Cork. Upgrading the N28 to a motorway was evidence of the same approach.
Mr Boyle acknowledged that the upgrade to a motorway was being driven in part by the desire to service industry in the Lower Harbour area but such development should have been located on the eastern side of Cork Harbour where there was an existing rail link to Cobh.

So you are giving out about a lack of investment in Cork infrastructure and then protest a major investment in Cork infrastructure because it's not perfect? How long would it take to move the site across the harbor and then redraw plans for a new motorway? We'd be another decade redrawing all of the plans and would hold up the development of the Cork Docklands and the entire city

AugustusMinimus

I’m not sure there is enough space to have a new harbour located beside the existing rail line.

The only viable place is the old IFI plant. However, I don’t think this is public ally owned. The road infrastructure there is poor as is and the whole seabed would need work to accommodate larger ships which don’t pass beyond Monkstown anymore. The seabed in a lot of places around there is only 3 foot deep at low tide.

PlainDanBoyle

Plenty of alternatives. Different road trajectory or the provision of different infrastructure. Marino Point should become the central transport hub for Cork Harbour. I'm a bit tired of arguments made that because you question assumptions you also oppose 'progress'.

boardsuser1

PlainDanBoyle wrote: »

Plenty of alternatives. Different road trajectory or the provision of different infrastructure. Marino Point should become the central transport hub for Cork Harbour. I'm a bit tired of arguments made that because you question assumptions you also oppose 'progress'.

If a rail infrastructure was to be considered for Ringaskiddy, would it consist of effectively reopening some of all of the Blackrock/Passage railway line with extensions/diversions of the original?

This is a particular area i wouldn't be too upto date on.

AugustusMinimus

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

PlainDanBoyle wrote: »

Plenty of alternatives. Different road trajectory or the provision of different infrastructure. Marino Point should become the central transport hub for Cork Harbour. I'm a bit tired of arguments made that because you question assumptions you also oppose 'progress'.

If a rail infrastructure was to be considered for Ringaskiddy, would it consist of effectively reopening some of all of the Blackrock/Passage railway line with extensions/diversions of the original?

This is a particular area i wouldn't be too upto date on.

Closing the public walkway from Pairc Ui Chaoimh to Rochestown would not be a popular move. Don’t think it’s feasible.

A rail line to Ringaskiddy would require

1. Tunnel from train station under Cork city to south of city.
2. Substantial viaducting / earth work due to hilly gradients south of Cork City.
3. More land take which resident should are against.

If a tunnel isn’t done, a new rail bridge will be required across the lee and likely a substantial amount of houses will need demolition.


Alternatively a bridge across Cork harbour from Cobh. Completely cost prohibitive and wouldn’t really help Carrigaline.

PlainDanBoyle

Not necessarily. A rail bridge through Haulbowline might be an alternative.

AugustusMinimus

PlainDanBoyle wrote: »

Not necessarily. A rail bridge through Haulbowline might be an alternative.

I doubt it could be done for less than 300m, given it would need to still allow ship movement. This rail line wouldn’t help commuters on the South side of Cork city either. Carrigaline commuters would face a long journey which would be much shorter by car.

PlainDanBoyle

It would be a start. Multiples of that sum have been spent on road infrastructure development in the interim.

Baldilocks

Marino point is not deep enough to accommodate large container ships, as it stands a much smaller ship is currently coming into Cork city (Tivoli), but this is inefficient, with resultant economic and environmental costs. Nor is there sufficient space for turning. It does have rail, but rail is not efficient in Ireland. Rail will never be really be viable in the vast majority of Ireland (our population density is too low ~70people/km squared, The UK is ~135/km2, and they still have to subsidise it). There are definitely opportunities for greener transport, but rail is not viable at present. More intelligent use of bus lanes and cycle lanes, park and ride facilities, and possibly water taxis for Little Island/City centre/Ringaskiddy would be far easier to implement and more efficient to operate.

Have to laugh at 'Green' politician proposing rail as a solution in areas where the population density is low. Clearly unaware of just how much energy it takes to get the rolling stick moving!!! Reminds me of Fianna Fails plans to put a Luas to Carrigaline in 2007. A motorway with a dedicated bus lane would be half the cost, and be much more efficient to run.

Secondly, HGV's are not even half of the traffic using the N28 as it stands, most are people going to work in Ringaskiddy, or people travelling from the lower harbour area into the city centre/suburbs for work. The road needs upgrading. There is a fatal accident at the top of Carrs' hill every year, not to mind the many thousands of hours lost just being stuck in traffic, belching out fumes.

EMBARASSED FOR YOU if you think otherwise.