The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

ForestFire

robarmstrong wrote: »

So is molesting kids, shoving payouts under parents noses and throwing ill babies into a mass grave in the back arse of nowhere, but I know what the lesser of two evils is here.
.

We all know these things are morally wrong.

But how can this can be an argument for something less morally wrong is beyond me. It's still wrong (for the people making this argument, as all the other things).

Maybe you think it's not wrong at all, which is a different situation.

robarmstrong

markodaly wrote: »

So, thats the deflection tactic so.

Shame, as I thought the pro-choice crowd at least were more honest and had integrity.

I'd consider the people not wanting to harass women into keeping an unwanted pregnancy and suppressing them the right to autonomy of their own body would hold more integrity than those who are the opposite of which I've described.

robarmstrong

ForestFire wrote: »

We all know these things are morally wrong.

But how can this can be an argument for something less morally wrong is beyond me. It's still wrong (for the people making this argument, as all the other things).

Maybe you think it's not wrong at all, which is a different situation.

I think abortion is wrong.

I think oppressing women's rights is more wrong especially in the case where a developing fetus has more rights than an actual born citizen.

Someone previously stated that all the pro-lifers would be extremely grateful the 8th was repealed if circumstances in their own personal lives merited an abortion but would never admit it is probably the truest thing I've read in this thread.

markodaly

robarmstrong wrote: »

I'd consider the people not wanting to harass women into keeping an unwanted pregnancy and suppressing them the right to autonomy of their own body would hold more integrity than those who are the opposite of which I've described.

Thats lovely and your point of view, but again its a deflection from the question I asked.

If people in the past have been upset over foreign money going to pro-life movements, then why are the same people accepting of it now? Do you not have any integrity?

Ave Sodalis

robarmstrong wrote: »

Someone previously stated that all the pro-lifers would be extremely grateful the 8th was repealed if circumstances in their own personal lives merited an abortion but would never admit it is probably the truest thing I've read in this thread.

It's also true that pro-choice people would love a society where abortion would never be needed, but that's impossible as so long as women are capable of becoming pregnant, there will be abortions (legal or not).

robarmstrong

markodaly wrote: »

Thats lovely and your point of view, but again its a deflection from the question I asked.

If people in the past have been upset over foreign money going to pro-life movements, then why are the same people accepting of it now? Do you not have any integrity?

I couldn't give a toss about who accepts what money on either side, the pro-life crowd could accept billions of euro and I still could not give a toss, I give a toss about the 8th getting repealed so it can shut the mouths of thousands of cretins with outdated ideologies up for good.

There's another thread about funds like someone mentioned. Go ask that question there.

robarmstrong

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

It's also true that pro-choice people would love a society where abortion would never be needed, but that's impossible as so long as women are capable of becoming pregnant, there will be abortions (legal or not).

I would absolutely love if abortion was never needed and you're absolutely right it is impossible.

But I'm not sending my daughter on a plane to a foreign country because her own country is too backwards to support her right and her choice.

david75

markodaly wrote: »

So, thats the deflection tactic so.

Shame, as I thought the pro-choice crowd at least were more honest and had integrity.

Deflection tactic? Hardly.
Let’s look up how many companies are registered along with Iona at the same address and talk about dirty money.

markodaly

robarmstrong wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about who accepts what money on either side,

Quite convenient no? :pac:

markodaly

david75 wrote: »

Deflection tactic? Hardly.
Let’s look up how many companies are registered along with Iona at the same address and talk about dirty money.

Oh, great. Internet detectives. The best types.

I am sure you passed on all information to the Gardai, RTE and SIPO.

robarmstrong

markodaly wrote: »

Quite convenient no? :pac:

No, not convenient.

I'm going to spell this out for you so it can sink in, you may need a few moments for it (fingers crossed) but hopefully my point will be made.

I. Do. Not. Give. Two. Turtle. Sh!ts. About. Which. Side. Accepts. Money.

I. Care. About. Women. Having. The. Right. To. Have. A. Choice.

I can go even slower if you like? Or would you like to avoid everything anyone pro-choice says by darting out of the thread with your tail between your legs, nipping back in and out with meaningless soundbites and irrelevant point-dodging remarks?

freshpopcorn

Mod NoteI see somebody has being calling another poster a troll.Don't do it again.
Report if they do.

david75

Here’s that ‘nurse’ in 2013...saying dinosaurs are in the bible. I’m not joking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcGohaxWvo

ForestFire

robarmstrong wrote: »

I think abortion is wrong.

I think oppressing women's rights is more wrong especially in the case where a developing fetus has more rights than an actual born citizen.

This I can understand, as it is the core of the vote, and no reference to other wrongs that are in no way relevant to this vote.

Havockk

markodaly wrote: »

Thats lovely and your point of view, but again its a deflection from the question I asked.

If people in the past have been upset over foreign money going to pro-life movements, then why are the same people accepting of it now? Do you not have any integrity?

Do you have integrity? Can you get pregnant? Up until the moment men can get themselves pregnant they have absolutely no right to dictate terms to woman on what rules there has to be in regards of abortion.

markodaly

Havockk wrote: »

Do you have integrity? Can you get pregnant? Up until the moment men can get themselves pregnant they have absolutely no right to dictate terms to woman on what rules there has to be in regards of abortion.

Do you then favour that this should be a woman only vote?

Good luck.

Oldtree

All I'm hearing at the moment from the anti repeal posters is this, and I would remind you that this progressive view is from 1983!

Ismisejack

robarmstrong wrote: »

I would absolutely love if abortion was never needed and you're absolutely right it is impossible.

But I'm not sending my daughter on a plane to a foreign country because her own country is too backwards to support her right and her choice.

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

erica74

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

Who are "the most vulnerable in society"?

January

Because rte isn't biased to one side. You only have to look at the coverage on the news to see that. :rolleyes:

Youth defence and the bishops Council also refused to reveal their funding. Where's the outrage at that?

uptherebels

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

an anti choicer giving out about dirty tactics:rolleyes:
and just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue;)

robarmstrong

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

Ah here now you're not even being subtle at this point anymore.

Pro-life stance is backwards and behind the time. Do you or do you not agree that a woman (a born, existing citizen) should have more rights than an unborn citizen of up to 12 weeks?

The most vulnerable in society? They haven't even become part of society.

Edward M

I can easily see robarmstrongs point re his daughter, or anyone's daughter for that matter.
I have two daughters, now both are against abortion, and both are still not sure how they will vote as yet, my wife has said she is voting no.
No harm in talking of options here, even though you might be crucified for your opinion or stance.
But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.
If for some reason they couldn't have the baby because of my offer, or if they never even told me of it until later, or if they went ahead and aborted and I found it out accidentally later, I would still love and respect and support in any way possible my daughters.
So maybe I might not be pro choice, in my mind anyway, but realistically if placed in the situation I mentioned in my own circumstances, I would accept my own daughters choices, I know I would, because I have great daughters.
The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

kylith

Edward M wrote: »

I can easily see robarmstrongs point re his daughter, or anyone's daughter for that matter.
I have two daughters, now both are against abortion, and both are still not sure how they will vote as yet, my wife has said she is voting no.
No harm in talking of options here, even though you might be crucified for your opinion or stance.
But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.
If for some reason they couldn't have the baby because of my offer, or if they never even told me of it until later, or if they went ahead and aborted and I found it out accidentally later, I would still love and respect and support in any way possible my daughters.
So maybe I might not be pro choice, in my mind anyway, but realistically if placed in the situation I mentioned in my own circumstances, I would accept my own daughters choices, I know I would, because I have great daughters.
The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

And if your daughters decided to have an abortion, for whatever reason, do you think they should have to travel to the uk, or would you want them to be able to have it in Ireland, where they could be taken care of at home, by their family, afterward?

Edward, maybe you should ask your wife, if she had to decide between the life of her, already existing daughter & the 8 week old foetus inside her daughter, which would she choose?

I understand people who do not agree with abortion on moral grounds, whether I agree or not , but this referendum is about so much more than just abortion. It's about women's right to healthcare & the option of those women to choose what they think is right for them. They do not have the option at the moment if they are pregnant.

Would you wife agree with one of your daughters being kept alive on a life support machine, slowly dying & rotting away in front of you, because she was pregnant, with a pregnancy that couldn't possibly survive?

robarmstrong

kylith wrote: »

And if your daughters decided to have an abortion, for whatever reason, do you think they should have to travel to the uk, or would you want them to be able to have it in Ireland, where they could be taken care of at home, by their family, afterward?

I would be inclined to say Edward would go for the latter. He clearly is of the view his daughters are more important than his own personal beliefs (we both share that view), he wouldn't forcibly stop them as stated but if he couldn't persuade them he would do his utmost to support their choice, as any father or decent human sized being would do.

seamus

Edward M wrote: »

But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.

Just exercising concept muscles here, I'm not trying to "gotcha":

What if they had come to you and told you they'd been raped by an adult neighbour - say someone your age - and were now pregnant?

Would the above honestly hold, that you would try to persuade them to hold onto their rapist's baby and then offer to bring up the child a few doors down from its rapist father?

I always just find the rape issue curious - people are far more prepared to support abortion in the case of rape than in the case of need, yet a conception from rape does not differ at all - morally, ethically or physically - from one conceived of consensual sex.

volchitsa

Edward M wrote: »

The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

This really is the nub of the issue. I remember the late Peter Mathews, after one of the recent controversies, either Miss Y or Savita I think, arguing against the right to abortion, and then, when asked about how he would react if his own daughter had a crisis pregnancy blithely saying that he would support her in her choice!

I mean WTF?? That is a pro choice view - but only for his own children? But nobody seemed to pick him up on it.

So yes, thank you for having the honesty and fairness to accept that this "choice for my children" requires "choice for other people's children too". No matter what one thinks of abortion. The only honest alternative is to say you would prefer to see your daughter restrained and force fed like the HSE wanted to do to Miss Y.
Which is why prolife posters always dance around the question.

volchitsa

Presage wrote: »

It does differ, the mother had no choice in the matter much like the unborn child has no choice in the matter when it comes to rape.

In the case of consensual sex the mother had a choice in the matter and should be aware that there is a risk of becoming pregnant when having sex. Morality is not simply black and white, it is often a quite complex equation where the balance can be tipped by some minor changes to the assumptions.

The act may well differ morally, but if we base our law on abortion on that difference, it means that the unborn's life is not that important in itself, but is dependent on the circumstances of its conception.

Which clearly makes no sense at all. The only way such a distinction can make sense is if we conclude that the unborn's life is less important than the well being of the mother. So the 8th needs to go. Because the two are not equal.

nozzferrahhtoo

Edward M wrote: »

Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.

The way I would judge parenting for myself, which tends to be the only way I try to judge parenting, I would consider that the wrong choice for me. I would think of it as simply bad parenting and I would be disappointed in myself. To use any power, let alone all of it, to try and motivate or influence their decision in the direction I want them to go is..... in this context.......... a level of parenting I would never want to implement. I would consider myself a failure in that moment.

For me the right path would be to ensure they are fully informed off ALL their options and the implication of each one. I would ensure I inform them of options that might not have considered or even know about. And with options they had considered or known about I would ensure they had explored the implications and potentials of each. Positives and Negatives.

And they would be fully informed of what support I can and would offer for each of those options. What my role would or could be, if any, in each option.

And then the decision would be theirs. At no point in that process would I use any power or influence to attempt to direct which option they go with. I would never offer any support as an incentive like your describe, but offer it as a default given whichever way they go or do not go.

To do it any other way would undermine pretty much every principle and goal I hold as a parent and what I feel it means to me to BE a parent. Which for me is to create autonomous people who choose their own path in life rather than extensions of myself doing the things I would do in their situation for my own reasons. As a parent I want them to know their decisions are their own, and not something they chose because I piled pressure (positive or negative) in such a way as they felt compelled to make the decision I constructed to look like the best one for them in a dirty, contrived and manipulative fashion. I physically shiver in revulsion at even the thought of it.