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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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    #9662
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    It's a women's rights issue because our law doesn't presently consider any of the woman's rights during pregnancy, bar her right to life. Her right to bodily atuonomy and her health; her right to be free of degrading and inhuman treatment; her right to freely give or withhold consent to clinical services; all out the window. Men never experience this; all of the rights above are guaranteed for us, even if it results in someone else's death.

    So yes, this is very much a women's rights issue.

    I have never heard of any of these "rights" you are describing. Are these actually upheld by law or are you saying they are rights because you think they should be?


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    #9663
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,310 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/doubts-grow-over-nurse-used-by-anti-abortion-campaign-f37tb0ms9

    So not a nurse then in any shape or form..really poor form from the save the 8th campaign


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    #9664
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    Once again, if a woman's life is in danger and can be proven to be in danger due to the pregnancy, I would be OK with abortion.

    A baby is not a "potential person". When a baby is born it's always a human being that comes out of the vagina, not a cheesecake or a puppy - a human.

    I see you once again totally ignored my point about how the 8th affects women’s rights in other ways besides abortion.

    I think you hit the nail on the head there - key phrase being when it’s born.
    When it’s born we can afford it equal rights to its mother. Before that, while it resides in HER uterus and depends on her to get to the point that it can be born, it’s her body, and it should be up to her what happens it.

    A zygote or fetus does not have equal value to a living, breathing woman. A woman is so much more valuable and important and her rights absolutely should trump that of the contents of her womb.


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    #9665
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    A zygote or fetus does not have equal value to a living, breathing woman. A woman is so much more valuable and important and her rights absolutely should trump that of the contents of her womb.

    Why should her rights (apart from her right to life) trump that of the child's right to life?


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    #9666
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    I have never heard of any of these "rights" you are describing. Are these actually upheld by law or are you saying they are rights because you think they should be?

    Supreme Court ruling 2001.

    Right to Bodily Integrity.
    The North Western Health Board -v- H.W. & C.W.


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    #9667
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    Why should her rights (apart from her right to life) trump that of the child's right to life?

    Why shouldn’t they? What makes a zygote more important than the woman carrying it?

    If a building was on fire and you could only save either a zygote in a petri dish or a toddler, which would you save?


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    #9668
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    gmisk wrote: »
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/doubts-grow-over-nurse-used-by-anti-abortion-campaign-f37tb0ms9

    So not a nurse then in any shape or form..really poor form from the save the 8th campaign


    Yeah, Broadsheet reported that a few days ago. He was on no registry, his certificate that John McGuirk produced is dated two years after it claimed he started, and they have a major typo on it (practicioner)... he's also has a book called Forgiving Ferns, in which he describes his time as a gun runner and a thief.


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    #9669
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Why shouldn’t they? What makes a zygote more important than the woman carrying it?

    If a building was on fire and you could only save either a zygote in a petri dish or a toddler, which would you save?

    They never answer the question so I'd honestly be surprised if they do.

    To be brutally honest I think this batch of pro-lifers are just trolls looking to wind people up, they all spit out the same thing, ignore points made and spit out more wind-up worthy stuff and it's pathetic. There was one saying pro-choice is pro-abortion when it really, really isn't.

    They can't accept that you can be entirely against abortion but still be in support of women's rights and their right to hold control over their own body.


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    #9670
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Supreme Court ruling 2001.

    Right to Bodily Integrity.
    The North Western Health Board -v- H.W. & C.W.

    OK - but how can you justify ending a child's life to satisfy the "right to bodily integrity"?

    "Bodily integrity is the inviolability of the physical body and emphasizes the importance of personal autonomy and the self-determination of human beings over their own bodies."

    A child in the womb is a human being, so from what I can gather, abortion infringes on the child's right to bodily integrity and their right to life.


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    #9671
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Jesus H Christ lads. You're engaging with a Nazi!

    What is wrong with you people?


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    #9672
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    Yeah, Broadsheet reported that a few days ago. He was on no registry, his certificate that John McGuirk produced is dated two years after it claimed he started, and they have a major typo on it (practicioner)... he's also has a book called Forgiving Ferns, in which he describes his time as a gun runner and a thief.

    And he left the campaign because the pro choice side was bullying him ha


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    #9673
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    pilly wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ lads. You're engaging with a Nazi!

    What is wrong with you people?

    I agree lads.


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    #9674
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    I have never heard of any of these "rights" you are describing. Are these actually upheld by law or are you saying they are rights because you think they should be?

    No, they're just phrases I made up on the spot. :rolleyes:

    Yes, these are actual established rights. And if you've really never heard of them, then I suggest you do some research into the area before discussing the matter of rights any further.


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    #9675
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Why shouldn’t they? What makes a zygote more important than the woman carrying it?

    If a building was on fire and you could only save either a zygote in a petri dish or a toddler, which would you save?

    I never said an unborn child is more important than the mother. I said the unborn child's right to life trumps every right of the mother except her right to life. If her life is in danger, I would accept abortion in her case.

    What does a "zygote" in a petri dish have to do with abortion?


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    #9676
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    pilly wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ lads. You're engaging with a Nazi!

    What is wrong with you people?

    I should have known better, at this stage. I’m done now.


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    #9677
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    In response to the woman's right to bodily integrity, the child in the womb is not her body.

    If a woman wants to have surgery to remove a wart from her hand or something, I'm fine with that. But the child's body is not her body so I don't think the right to bodily integrity gives you the right to kill a baby.


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    #9678
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I should have known better, at this stage. I’m done now.

    I'm a nazi (national socialist) because I don't support murdering babies? I'm not sure that makes any sense.

    Definitely not a socialist. I believe in freedom and limited government.


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    #9679
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    That guy who never heard of the right to bodily integrity 5 minutes ago sure does seem to have become an expert in it all of a sudden.


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    #9680
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    That guy who never heard of the right to bodily integrity 5 minutes ago sure does seem to have become an expert in it all of a sudden.

    I'm not an expert in it, I just see a mother and child as two bodies, not one, and I recognise the right to life of both the mother and the child.


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    #9681
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    I am not a "re-reg". This is my first account on this site and I use my username on every website I use. Try googling it. I can't find anything trollish about my question in this thread.

    I find it ridiculous that a number of pro-abortion people cry "women's rights!!!" even though healthy little unborn girls are the majority of abortion victims. If you think I am a troll for not buying this "women's rights" pro-abortion argument then you are naive.

    Way more female foetues are aborted than male foetuses? What are you talking about? Stop mashing the keyboard before thinking things through.


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    #9682
    Sierra Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Sierra Eire


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    Way more female foetues are aborted than male foetuses? What are you talking about? Stop mashing the keyboard before thinking things through.

    A simple Google search will agree with me. The majority of abortions are performed on unborn girls because the mothers wanted boys instead. This is a well known trend. I can't provide a link to proof because I don't have enough posts to.


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    #9683
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    OK - but how can you justify ending a child's life to satisfy the "right to bodily integrity"?

    "Bodily integrity is the inviolability of the physical body and emphasizes the importance of personal autonomy and the self-determination of human beings over their own bodies."

    A child in the womb is a human being, so from what I can gather, abortion infringes on the child's right to bodily integrity and their right to life.

    You asked where the law was written.
    I showed you where the law is written.

    Here endeth my engagement with a fascist.


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    #9684
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    A simple Google search will agree with me. The majority of abortions are performed on unborn girls because the mothers wanted boys instead. This is a well known trend. I can't provide a link to proof because I don't have enough posts to.

    You can give the title of the article. No link required. Go ahead.

    Oh and don’t tell me to do it myself. You made the claim. The onus is on you to back it up.

    Oh and China doesn’t count. That’s not here.


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    #9685
    Experience_day
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭Experience_day


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    You can give the title of the article. No link required. Go ahead.

    Oh and don’t tell me to do it myself. You made the claim. The onus is on you to back it up.

    Oh and China doesn’t count. That’s not here.

    Why does China not count?


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    #9686
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Experience_day wrote: »
    Why does China not count?

    This thread is about whether Irish women should have the right to have abortions in this country or go continue to travel to the UK. Baby boys aren’t culturally more valued than baby girls in Ireland.

    What happens in China is of no relevance to this very geographically-restricted issue.

    Use your grey matter. This is really simple stuff.


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    #9687
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    The pro abortion side tend to forget that with every abortion there’s two people affected, the mother and the unborn, each has an equal right to life, neither more than the other


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    #9688
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Experience_day wrote: »
    Why does China not count?

    You realize thousand if Irish women have abortions every single year?
    What difference does it make that those babies are aborted in England not Ireland? We don't have a ban at all.

    It seems funny that you want a ban on abortion in Ireland based on abortions in China, but don't seem to care much about Irish babies being aborted in England.


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    #9689
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,034 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Edward M wrote: »
    But that's intolerance, that still exists, abortion won't change that.

    It probably will to be honest. The stigma associated with abortion will lessen hugely in this country

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #9690
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,034 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Edward M wrote: »
    Aborting babies doesent end intolerance.
    Intolerance is a systemic societal failure, the need for abortion is one too.
    I know plenty single mothers, I don't know one I've ever heard of being ostracised, punished or made leave where she is from because of it.
    I think a lot are making out that the attitudes in Ireland are still the same as the last century to suit their argument.
    What part of Ireland are you posters referring to here, I know that is not the case where I live anymore anyway.

    Urban County Wicklow. 1990. My Sisters 16 year old best friend gets pregnant, sent to a convent to have the child.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #9691
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Sierra Eire wrote: »
    In response to the woman's right to bodily integrity, the child in the womb is not her body.

    If a woman wants to have surgery to remove a wart from her hand or something, I'm fine with that. But the child's body is not her body so I don't think the right to bodily integrity gives you the right to kill a baby.

    Grow up, or at least come back with a grown up comment!


This discussion has been closed.
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