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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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    #9932
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    Call me Al wrote: »
    LOL Did I do what exactly?

    Right so, do you agree (and a simple yes or no will suffice if you'd prefer the brevity) that arguments here from pro-life supporters relating to Chinese and Indian cultural attitudes towards girls, and consequent abortion rates within their cultures, are irrelevant to any discussions surrounding the Irish abortion referendum?

    But of course you can comment on what you want.. as you keep reminding us so emphatically

    In your hast to laugh at me I have already commented on this.

    I also said Tuam has special meaning to me but you conveniently ignore this.

    Do you hold only certain posters on here responsible for Tuam? While others can absolve themselves, when in fact nobody here is ikely anyway responsible and it's no relevant to this vote.


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    #9933
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,732 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    erica74 wrote: »
    Well do you know what, I was sexually abused by my brother for a number of years when I was a child and let me tell you now, if I had ended up pregnant as a result of that abuse, the furthest thing from my mind would have been holding onto "evidence" as you put it.

    My wording was not the best but there has been cases in the past where the child was the proof that the woman was raped. The unborn is an innocent life in the rape just like the woman who was raped is.
    I am not going to pretend i can imagine the depth of the horror you went through, but that sounds horrific and I am sorry to read that, hope you are ok.

    This is a general comment and not aimed at you, I don’t think it is nice for people either who were born from the result of rape to see people say they shouldn’t have been allowed to live. The pro choice side seem to always argue that rape is like a clear cut reason for abortion. The message it sends out to the children who are the result of a rape is damaging.


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    #9934
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    The message it sends out? Are you for real? It’s okay to force someone to be an incubator for nine months to grow their abusers child but you dare not speak about it for fear of offending someone? Good Christ


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    #9935
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,732 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »
    The message it sends out? Are you for real? It’s okay to force someone to be an incubator for nine months to grow their abusers child but you dare not speak about it for fear of offending someone? Good Christ

    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.


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    #9936
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    This is great news as this company have been hired by the pro life campaign and now theyre scuppered. They were up to some sinister sh!t

    https://twitter.com/newstalkfm/status/974999563483435009?s=21


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    #9937
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

    How warped are you?? Seriously. Indicative of the entire pro life position though sadly.


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    #9938
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.
    They should be dead if their mother wanted. Because their mother matters and is important enough to put herself and her body first. If she wants to keep her pregnancy she should and equally if she doesn’t want to grow her rapists spawn she shouldn’t have to. To suggest otherwise tells me a lot about the contempt you show for females


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    #9939
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

    Nobody is saying all the babies born to rape should have been aborted. But surely the mother should at least have the option open to her? If she wants to keep it, fine. If she doesn’t, fine too. It’s called personal choice, that’s what your side want to restrict.


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    #9940
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    ForestFire wrote: »
    In your hast to laugh at me I have already commented on this.

    I also said Tuam has special meaning to me but you conveniently ignore this.

    Do you hold only certain posters on here responsible for Tuam? While others can absolve themselves, when in fact nobody here is ikely anyway responsible and it's no relevant to this vote.
    I haven't once mentioned Tuam ..
    So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.


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    #9941
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

    Roughly translated: rape is good in some cases :rolleyes:


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    #9942
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

    FFS. Literally NOBODY is saying that's what should happen.We are saying if a woman is raped, she should have a CHOICE in whether she wants to carry her rapists child to term or not.


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    #9943
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »
    With all due respect Grace you have no idea what you’d do if you were raped and found yourself with child. You cannot comprehend to feel that level of violation unless you’ve been through it. When the thoughts of merely touching your body repulses you never mind having the seed of whoever raped you growing inside you and taking life from you. You cannot say what you would do because thankfully that has never happened to you but it has happened to a lot of women and they deserve to do what’s right for them

    You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")


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    #9944
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    RobertKK wrote: »
    My wording was not the best but there has been cases in the past where the child was the proof that the woman was raped. The unborn is an innocent life in the rape just like the woman who was raped is.
    I am not going to pretend i can imagine the depth of the horror you went through, but that sounds horrific and I am sorry to read that, hope you are ok.

    This is a general comment and not aimed at you, I don’t think it is nice for people either who were born from the result of rape to see people say they shouldn’t have been allowed to live. The pro choice side seem to always argue that rape is like a clear cut reason for abortion. The message it sends out to the children who are the result of a rape is damaging.

    Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
    Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.


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    #9945
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

    They should be dead if their mother wanted.


    Because their mother matters and is important enough to put herself and her body first. If she wants to keep her pregnancy she should and equally if she doesn’t want to grow her rapists spawn she shouldn’t have to. To suggest otherwise tells me a lot about the contempt you show for females

    Words there are none.

    Not the child's fault.. nor the mother's


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    #9946
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,732 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    david75 wrote: »
    How warped are you?? Seriously. Indicative of the entire pro life position though sadly.

    What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
    Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
    It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...


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    #9947
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Graces7 wrote: »
    You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")
    You do not have a child, so you have not had to carry a rapists baby I’m assuming. And even if you have, and I wholeheartedly hope you’ve never had to be faced with that, your experience or feelings is irrelevant to the many other women who find themselves in this position because everyone has a different outlook emotions feelings strength etc


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    #9948
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Graces7 wrote: »
    You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

    The HSE applied for a court order to forcibly restrain a rape victim, Miss Y, to make her continue a pregnancy.

    Do you think that should be an option for a child rape victim who has not yet come to terms with being "with child" herself?


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    #9949
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    erica74 wrote: »
    Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
    Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.

    Imagine on top of everything else having to find at least €1000 euro so you could travel. Imagine not being able to afford to travel on top of everything else you're now being forced to remain pregnant for this person, this person who raped you and now will have to be in your life forevermore (because lets face it, being a parent doesn't stop when they turn 18) and yes, rapists have been granted access to their children.


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    #9950
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
    Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
    It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...
    No more warped than you lot telling women their lives are inferior and they’re basically only a walking uterus


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    #9951
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    I am just at a total loss here.
    If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
    If you want an abortion, have one.
    That's how simple this should be.
    No woman forced to remain pregnant, no woman forced to have an abortion. Simple.
    Every woman should have access to abortion in their home country so that there is continuity of care and every woman has the support they need throughout the process.


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    #9952
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
    Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
    It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

    I think he has me on ignore lol.

    Your entire position is warped, you think that pro-choice people want every baby that is conceived in rape aborted, you think that we'd go around telling people who have been conceived in rape that their lives are somehow inferior because their mother choose to have them, you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.


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    #9953
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
    Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
    It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

    You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
    And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
    That is beyond warped.


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    #9954
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,732 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    erica74 wrote: »
    Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
    Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.

    Rape is used as a hard case when in fact a huge majority of abortions have nothing to do with rape.
    The proposed legislation is for extreme no reason abortions up to 12 weeks and then longer for other reasons.
    It goes far beyond hard cases and asks people to trust politicians...who say they will not respect the vote if retain the 8th win and will rerun the referendum.
    It is in the Irish times today that the proposed abortion legislation is causing problems for the repeal campaigners as it goes way beyond the hard cases.


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    #9955
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    January wrote: »
    Imagine on top of everything else having to find at least €1000 euro so you could travel. Imagine not being able to afford to travel on top of everything else you're now being forced to remain pregnant for this person, this person who raped you and now will have to be in your life forevermore (because lets face it, being a parent doesn't stop when they turn 18) and yes, rapists have been granted access to their children.

    A quiet question please. Do you think aborting a child or rape will remove the suffering from the rape? I just googled and many deeply regretted aborting in these circumstances. It added to the suffering from the rape.


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    #9956
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    Call me Al wrote: »
    I haven't once mentioned Tuam ..
    So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.

    I haven't once metioned india china...

    So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.


    (And as I said I already answered yours if you care to look)


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    #9957
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Graces7 wrote: »
    You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

    What?

    How about addressing the points made? Old age is no excuse for intolerance, lack of compassion, pontificating, or ignoring the points made that aren't what you want to hear. Does a woman get no say in how her entire future will be?

    "With Child"???? Where did that come from?


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    #9958
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    david75 wrote: »
    You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
    And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
    That is beyond warped.

    I see your point but we are coming at it from a different direction. You say foetus; we say baby. /


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    #9959
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,732 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    david75 wrote: »
    You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
    And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
    That is beyond warped.


    Warped to see an innocent life as not being guilty for the crime of another?
    It is the disregard for life that makes people do bad things to the lives of others. People failing to see the actions one does to another and the effects it has. There is a lack of caring in this world and killing innocent life and turning a woman into a being where a life is ended is hardly a positive thing. Where is the bodily autonomy of the unborn that is killed in the womb and which has to be aborted because he or she is now dead?


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    #9960
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Warped to see an innocent life as not being guilty for the crime of another?
    It is the disregard for life that makes people do bad things to the lives of others. People failing to see the actions one does to another and the effects it has. There is a lack of caring in this world and killing innocent life and turning a woman into a being where a life is ended is hardly a positive thing. Where is the bodily autonomy of the unborn that is killed in the womb and which has to be aborted because he or she is now dead?

    Amen to this Robert. Amen


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    #9961
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Graces7 wrote: »
    A quiet question please. Do you think aborting a child or rape will remove the suffering from the rape? I just googled and many deeply regretted aborting in these circumstances. It added to the suffering from the rape.

    It will not remove the trauma of rape but you think going through a full pregnancy and spending your life rearing the child of that rapist will not make it worse?

    Google all you want. Some deeply regret perhaps but you won't read the sites of those who have no regrets. You won't see any comments from the vast majority of women who have had to travel for an abortion because they're not posting online.

    That was no genuine question, just a route to posting more propaganda.


This discussion has been closed.
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