Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Rows Grower

The Rifleman wrote: »

It doesn't matter who you vote for, things stay the same. If no one votes then alternative systems will have to be proposed. Such as direct democracy for example. It's impossible to hold politicans accountable for their actions if they can screw the whole country but get re-elected because they look after their constituents.

As it is there will never be a way to vote for real change. Anyone that promises change are usually lying to get power.

We need a system that takes the power from the politicans and makes the citizen more accountable. Like a direct democracy type of system.

Okeydokey, I'm now retiring from this discussion with yourself.

But, if people are happy to continue the Fianna Fail and Fine Gael dictatorship for another hundred years then there is no problem. And God help us if Sinn Fein ever get a piece of that action in the future.

Rows Grower

Rows Grower wrote: »

Okeydokey, I'm now retiring from this discussion with yourself.

Ok, fair enough. But I have to ask. Do you think the bolded text you quoted is contradictory or something?

Mellor

The Rifleman wrote: »

Ok, fair enough. But I have to ask. Do you think the bolded text you quoted is contradictory or something?

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.

The Rifleman wrote: »

I don't agree with how our political system is set up here. If you vote in this system nothing will change. It will always be the same parish pump political bs. When you don't vote in this system, the powers that be will see that things are broken politically in this country. There are other ways to run a country and the idea is that these ideas will be explored. Such as direct democracy or an executive government. I think it's obvious that our current system doesn't work.

So, by voting you continue the current bs that has always been. At least by not voting you have a chance of changing things.

Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

tudderone

Mellor wrote: »

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.



Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

It landed us with some right chancers mind.......:rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0wAbQUMfWs

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.



Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

I know I say political system, but I mean voting in the general election. SSM and abortion referendums have obviously created real change in our laws although it took a long time to happen because they weren't important to politicians.

Voter turnout in the last election was 62% which is quite high. If it was 10 or 15% it would be a national crisis and something would have to change. It would be all over the media. It couldn't be ignored.

What I mean by executive government is that people stand for Taoisach and we all get to vote for them. So more people have a say in who gets that role instead of one constituency as it currently is. You can argue that they only get that role if other constituencies vote for their party, but I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

Just my thoughts on it. I personally can't see things changing in any meaningful way as it is. I don't expect people to stop voting either, as most are conditioned to do so. It feels like the electorate get codded every time someone makes a promise.

I choose not to participate anymore. I'm not voting for Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or socialists. So that means I have no one to vote for.

Grizzly 45

The trouble with direct democracy is; you will get voter fatigue from never-ending propositions and then lose out on a vital bit of legislation.
A certain county in California is a good example where it held a proposition on keeping domestic fowl in urban back gardens and gay marriage being abolished.
By the end of the day, hens had gained valuable living space and gays were prohibited from getting married in LA county[?]
It probably would work here but it would need some sort of minimum signatures petition of verifiable sigs as well of Irish residents.

Thing is...Why would the Irish system change?
It suits those in power and us who vote complete and utter gobdaws, mostly former school teachers it seems... into power, so they might hopefully "fix da roads!" or whatever in our locality to secure their power base.As "all politics is local" in Ireland,[but definitely not on the EUSSR stage] and if the one gobdaw cant fix the roads,we'll vote the other amadahn from the other crowd instead in the hope they'll fix it next time.

So if we want a change we have to stop looking beyond our potholes, broken street lights and other petty stuff and start demanding change on a national level to fix the system on a local and national level.

b

ut I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

QED
Man has N Tipp GAA in his pocket...Need a strip and gear for the under 12 s of Killyweewee or a new pitch someplace?Micks the man for that.
Same as the flatcap dynasty of Kerry looks after their voters extremely well[and fair play to them too] and has a secure power base that wont ever shift.

It feels like the electorate get codded every time someone makes a promise.

Proably why there is so much venom directed against Trump.He actually tried to keep his election promises and showed up a bunch of professional politicians.

Feisar

I get your disillusionment with the current setup. It's also galling that at the first chance the incumbents get their noses stuck into the trough. The amount of brother/sisters/husbands/wives on committees is mental. Also I don't know that politics effect us that much. That's open to debate I know but would we have had the last crash if there had been a Labour government in as opposed to FF? Of course we would. As a small open economy on the periphery of Europe we are always going to be swayed by the prevailing winds.
Also things are generally pretty good in this country, yes there are issues, healthcare and not just hospital beds, services for anyone with a disability are abysmal. Having said that while we were in the depts of a famine the underground opened in the UK. Not trying to make this an Irish/English thing, however the colonial countries do have that jump start having robbed half the world of it's wealth.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

I get your disillusionment with the current setup. It's also galling that at the first chance the incumbents get their noses stuck into the trough. The amount of brother/sisters/husbands/wives on committees is mental. Also I don't know that politics effect us that much.

That's open to debate I know but would we have had the last crash if there had been a Labour government in as opposed to FF? Of course we would. As a small open economy on the periphery of Europe, we are always going to be swayed by the prevailing winds.

We actually were in better shape than many. Our National debt was well within manageable levels. But when it had private banking deb tacked onto it, that's when Aughrim was lost! Anywhere else the banks would have been sunk straight off. But because bankers and politicians move in the same circles and everyone here has their hands in everyone else's pockets and /or on other parts of their anatomy. Those parts could be pulled, very hard! if need be by the banks. Elections are fierce expensive things to contest, and the aul church gate collection won't cut it anymore.Sp are you going to let your main election source of income fail???...

tudderone

Bail-out ehhh ? What I remember about the bail-out is people on the steps of government buildings telling barefaced ones :rolleyes:, The IMF lot were actually in the building behind them.

Blood pressure rising across ireland in 3.....2......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19KotloFVxA

Mellor

The Rifleman wrote: »

I know I say political system, but I mean voting in the general election. SSM and abortion referendums have obviously created real change in our laws although it took a long time to happen because they weren't important to politicians.

I understand you were talking about the GE specifically. But they are intrinsically link to the overall system. Can't have a benelavent dictator ship, and retain referenda on important issues.

Voter turnout in the last election was 62% which is quite high. If it was 10 or 15% it would be a national crisis and something would have to change. It would be all over the media. It couldn't be ignored.

Yes, 10 % would be insanely low and would be a national issue.
In order for that to happen, there would need to be a massive co-ordinated effort and an additional 1.5m voters to abstain.
As far as I am aware, that is not a current movement. So by simply not voting yourself, you aren't really getting any closer.

By all means, don't vote. Your choice. But I would be consider it as having any are making an impact. In order for that to happen, you'd have to not vote, and campaigner for others to join you.

What I mean by executive government is that people stand for Taoisach and we all get to vote for them. So more people have a say in who gets that role instead of one constituency as it currently is. You can argue that they only get that role if other constituencies vote for their party, but I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

My confusion stemmed from the fact that the current government is elected, and has executive power. It's not one constituency that decides who the Taoiseach, it's all constituencies collectively. That's not an argument to be made, it's a basic fact pf the parliamentary system.
If the taoiseach was elected nationally, directly. The dail/Seanad still be elected by the current system.


I agree that many parts of the country think very locally. Look at the Healy Raes in Kerry. Woeful stuff. But that's the people in Kerry's choice to make.

I choose not to participate anymore. I'm not voting for Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or socialists. So that means I have no one to vote for.

If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

Rows Grower

Mellor wrote: »

I understand you were talking about the GE specifically. But they are intrinsically link to the overall system. Can't have a benelavent dictator ship, and retain referenda on important issues.


Yes, 10 % would be insanely low and would be a national issue.
In order for that to happen, there would need to be a massive co-ordinated effort and an additional 1.5m voters to abstain.
As far as I am aware, that is not a current movement. So by simply not voting yourself, you aren't really getting any closer.

By all means, don't vote. Your choice. But I would be consider it as having any are making an impact. In order for that to happen, you'd have to not vote, and campaigner for others to join you.



My confusion stemmed from the fact that the current government is elected, and has executive power. It's not one constituency that decides who the Taoiseach, it's all constituencies collectively. That's not an argument to be made, it's a basic fact pf the parliamentary system.
If the taoiseach was elected nationally, directly. The dail/Seanad still be elected by the current system.


I agree that many parts of the country think very locally. Look at the Healy Raes in Kerry. Woeful stuff. But that's the people in Kerry's choice to make.




If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

I always find it amusing when people that have no clue whatsoever about how effective as politicians the Healy Raes are think it is so intelligent to ridicule them and the people who voted for them.

You mentioned slim pickings, who would you choose over them that ran in Kerry in the last general election and why?

Mellor

Rows Grower wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people that have no clue whatsoever about how effective as politicians the Healy Raes are think it is so intelligent to ridicule them and the people who voted for them.

You mentioned slim pickings, who would you choose over them that ran in Kerry in the last general election and why?

I think you've misunderstood the point.
The previous poster made a point that many people think very locally, even in general elections. I pointed to the Healy Raes as a perfect example of that. They position themselves very much as local politicians. Historically that have traded their parliamentary support in return for local funding. I think it's hard to disagree with the idea that's their MO.

But I haven't ridiculed anyone who voted for the Healy Raes however. People are entitle to vote for whoever they chose. If they feel that local matters are their prime interest. Then, that's who they'd should vote for.
Although a cabinet entirely local would be a disaster.

I've never given their policies much consideration to be completely honest. But it's probably a mistake to refer to them singularly. Michael certain seems unbeatable in any election. And I believe he is quite a successful in business/property, political negotiations.
Danny clearly not as solid. He slipped down in the recent election behind Sinn Féin and Fine Gael. And his drink drive permit idea was well intentioned, a little self serving, but not exactly the actions of a shrewd political operator.

Slim pickings comment was in relation to supporting political parties in national matter. The Rifleman's party criteria eliminates the majority. Leaving only Human Dignity Alliance and Aontu. I don't believe Human Dignity Alliance had a candidate in Kerry. Aontu would be the only option - which may be out too depending on his definitions.

yubabill

I've been following the US election closely for the last month and even if you're not a Trump fan, you should give him a fair shake and watch this video from his official youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720O_yBLrTs

The only thing he forgot was the US Postal subcontracted truck driver who swore an affidavit the other day saying he drove 24 pallets of mail-in votes from New York to Pennsylvania (why would votes need to travel across two states to be counted?)

tudderone

yubabill wrote: »

I've been following the US election closely for the last month and even if you're not a Trump fan, you should give him a fair shake and watch this video from his official youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720O_yBLrTs

The only thing he forgot was the US Postal subcontracted truck driver who swore an affidavit the other day saying he drove 24 pallets of mail-in votes from New York to Pennsylvania (why would votes need to travel across two states to be counted?)

The democrats were screaming "Russian interference" when Trump won the election 4 years ago. Now they are saying the election is as pure as the driven snow now they have won.

tudderone

Adolf Hitler is back in Africa ! Just won an election in Namibia. I have to say the plastic surgeons have done him proud, he looks great for 131.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013447/Politician-named-Adolf-Hitler-wins-election-Namibia.html

Munsterlad102

Mellor wrote: »

If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

There are a few other right wing parties such as Renua and IFP but the biggest of them and most promising would be the National Party.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Adolf Hitler is back in Africa ! Just won an election in Namibia. I have to say the plastic surgeons have done him proud, he looks great for 131.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013447/Politician-named-Adolf-Hitler-wins-election-Namibia.html

Typical DM understatements of facts about Namibia. A "small group still speak German" It's only about 33% of the population, along with Afrikaans and up to 1990 both were official languages:rolleyes:
Despite its colonial history, which was pretty mild compared to the other powers of the time, it's the only country Germany easily accepts as dual citizenship.
Great place to go hunting too,if you are into long-range deer stalking here, this is the place for you.Rare if ever to get shots on game under 200 meters out there

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Typical DM understatements of facts about Namibia. A "small group still speak German" It's only about 33% of the population, along with Afrikaans and up to 1990 both were official languages:rolleyes:
Despite its colonial history, which was pretty mild compared to the other powers of the time, it's the only country Germany easily accepts as dual citizenship.
Great place to go hunting too,if you are into long-range deer stalking here, this is the place for you.Rare if ever to get shots on game under 200 meters out there

Mossad must be kicking themselves, old adolf blacked up and duped the lot of them.

Grizzly 45

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

There are a few other right wing parties such as Renua and IFP but the biggest of them and most promising would be the National Party.

And all of them are just as bats as their Left-wing opponents. :rolleyes:

yubabill

So now there are two highly-suspicious incidents regarding the US election which stand out enough to raise concerns with even the most moderate observer;

1. The truck driver affidavit detailing how he drove 24 pallets of completed mail-in ballots from NY to PA;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0xaA4dYsbQ

2. The lawyer testifying at Georgia Judiciary Cttee. hearings yesterday with video of poll workers sending observers/media home and pulling boxes of ballots from under a table to be counted during the night (suspicious, at the very least) - the trick in the vid is to keep a good eye on the top right CCTV screen, the rest just show that everyone else has gone;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keANzinHWUA

The first witness says he does not know how many ballots were involved, others estimate 100k and over. The second witness speculates up to 18k ballots involved in GA.

tudderone

More statistic twisting to suit your agenda :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qHiSuhotgM

Cass

yubabill wrote: »

So now there are two highly-suspicious incidents regarding the US election which stand out enough to raise concerns with even the most moderate observer;.

Same thing happening with a congressional (i think) seat in NY.

Democrat incumbent was losing by 28,000 votes. Huge margin. A democrat appointed judge then said he would review the spoiled ballots himself. After "reviewing" them he found enough ballots that now the Democrat is leading by 12 votes, and only yesterday they "found" another 55 votes, for the democrat.

Again mail-in ballots were said to be responsible but with 60,000 mail in ballots and over 70% of them going for the democrat and then the judges actions of reviewing spoiled ballots to put the democrat over the finish line is beyond suspicious.

To be honest all this election fraud talk has me thinking about our own elections. Some things to me just don't seem to add up. Like certain candidates who were essentially told no to appear in public or canvass yet won their seat despite not being remotely qualified and being involved in/aware of multiple scandals.

Now i'm in no way making any accusation or claim of fraud against any person or individual. Lets be clear on that from the off and in the claim culture we live in i don't want any confusion (given the rise in the Governments tendency to send Gardaí to the door of people that speak their minds on the interweb).

Yes i understand that some people are just that stupid to keep voting for the same person based on "i've always voted this way" or "s/he's the only one i know", but at what point will things change. I see in recent polls that FF took a nose dive and FG have risen again. Seriously! The options are limited but with over 1.3 million NOT voting and our current Government made up of only one first choice and the rest 5th, 6th, up to 15th choice candidates the Government, in my opinion, has no mandate and hence do not serve at the will of the people.

Grizzly 45

And THIS is why we should NEVER , ever, contemplate electronic voting in Ireland. Imagine what sort of blaggarding our lot could get up to with something like Dominion machines and the fun trying to prove it, thru no doubt another lengthy public inquiry and tribunal.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Better off sticking to our "stupid aul pencils and a bit of paper" here.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And THIS is why we should NEVER , ever, contemplate electronic voting in Ireland. Imagine what sort of blaggarding our lot could get up to with something like Dominion machines and the fun trying to prove it, thru no doubt another lengthy public inquiry and tribunal.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Better off sticking to our "stupid aul pencils and a bit of paper" here.

Well the public have a memory of the previous fiasco with the voting machines saga. So i doubt that will be tried again for decades, and it'll be an app on your phone or something equally stupid.

Grizzly 45

Hopefully we learned our lessons on this in 2002 and a few million wasted tax euros later not to try that nonsense again.But there will always ve some Simps who will push this again.
Meantime in the US.It seems over one thousand sworn affidavits on witnessing election fraud is not enough for some Democrats, to claim why are not more people coming forward? Well, if you are being intimidated,harassed, doxxed,etc, would you be in a rush?

https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/michigan-election-witnesss-statement-goes-viral-democrats-like-ruin-life?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=brief-FP&utm_campaign=dailyam&utm_content=2020-12-04&ats_es=5e82e12455a52f8768d32f86adf13ec3

Cass

HSPC report shows no cases of influenza reported by GPs during weeks 40 to 47 (September 28th to November 22nd), no hospitalizations recorded, and no deaths recorded. Seems Covid-19 has cured the Flu.

Every cloud and all that.

Grizzly 45

This Frankfurt election server story doesn't seem to be dying off at all.
Seems "the Kraken"[German "Octopus"] is the 305 military intel div based out of AZ,and it seems that there was a gunfight with 3 KIA's[UNVERIFIED sofar]

Despite the US Army denying such a raid took place as well as Sythl the server company,[who just also happens to be financially bankrupt].Why would people who are going to be minutely examined in the public eye when this breaks go along with a blatantly fake news story?
Or this is a massive bit of what the Russians call a "Maskirovka" A totally bogus and deception manoeuvre to fool your enemy into making a manoeuvre to your advantage?If it is...Which side is playing this?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/going-server-reportedly-obtained-germany-related-2020-election/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=

Grizzly 45

yubabill wrote: »

2. The lawyer testifying at Georgia Judiciary Cttee. hearings yesterday with video of poll workers sending observers/media home and pulling boxes of ballots from under a table to be counted during the night (suspicious, at the very least) - the trick in the vid is to keep a good eye on the top right CCTV screen, the rest just show that everyone else has gone;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keANzinHWUA

The first witness says he does not know how many ballots were involved, others estimate 100k and over. The second witness speculates up to 18k ballots involved in GA.

Looks like that was a Mom/Daughter combination...NOTE if you are going to commit criminal activity, don't go around advertising your business at the crime scene!

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/breaking-crooked-elections-superviser-filmed-pulling-suitcases-ballots-georgia-identified-rubys-daughter-video/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=daily

tudderone

I seen last night, CNN admitted they suppressed stories relating to Hunter Biden as they don't consider him or the gas scandal in the Ukraine to be relevant to the election.