Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616113#Comment_122616113

True, it has no external safety. It does have a decocker.

Hobby farmer

The Dao doesn't have have decocker, as it's double action only. It's carried by most armed Gardai including ASU. The double action single action has a decocker alright

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616302#Comment_122616302

Never realised that about the DAO TBH. Thought I noticed a decock lever on them but never loaded or fired one.

The only p226s I've ever handled or shot had decockers but in fairness they were not the DAO.

Hobby farmer

Yeah, it's my understanding that where the P226 is issued to police, it's issued in Dao. I'm open to correction though.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616302#Comment_122616302

So who uses the DA/SA Sig?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122615534#Comment_122615534

H&K are certainly a quality manufacturer and I have previously advocated (perhaps naively) that the DF replace the Steyr with the HK416. The USP from what I’ve heard is an extremely durable and solid handgun, although getting somewhat dated with some police forces such as Denmark replacing them with the Sig P320.

Will we ever see a contract for Glocks for AGS? In a future united Ireland scenario, where the PSNI and AGS merge into a new all-Ireland force, the Glock 17s the PSNI use will be Home Office property do I can’t see them being just handed over. Also the PSNI use the good but (by the time of a united Ireland) dated Gen3 Glock 17.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616735#Comment_122616735

The 416 would seem a good choice. Anyone using them seems to love them. I remember being in Norway when they were not long after getting these and there were a lot of smiley happy faces to be seen.

As regards the Glocks and the PSNI situation and all Ireland, if it does happen then any transition on firearms would be slow enough and controlled. They would not just take all the Glocks back to some place in the UK. As you say they would have been well worn. There would be a planned handover or absorption of multiple assets. I suspect both forces, then combined, with select a contract following a merging period. The same process as you'd expect for power supply, prisons, post office, welfare, transport etc. In reality a logistical nightmare overall.

It could only benefit AGS as the more firearms that the state buys then the better deal and support they would get from any supplier.

I'm not sure whether Sig have the same EU manufacturing connections that they used to have in years gone by, maybe someone has more knowledge about that. There would be political issues I'm sure with any selection. I'd be fairly sure it would be Sig, Glock or H&K though.

I had a USP IN 40. A great gun and in 9mm too but its a bit old now and they have some better all rounders available like the P30 or the VP9 depending on configuration preference.

Grizzly 45

Before we discuss what would be issued to an officer in the new all Ireland police force.My question would be will this 32 county force be an armed or unarmed force?As this would have more implications for our great grandchildren in firearms ownership than what the future Irish police officer will be carrying as a duty side arm. It raises alot of intressing questions for our firearms laws like dealing with a diametrically opposed pro gunownership province,who have more privately held firearms than we do down South,have concealed carry permits,and people with serious paramilitary skills and still access to war material on both sides,and plenty still who aren't too enamoured with the idea of a shotgun wedding of the 4th green field back to Dublins rule .Lets square that particular circle first,possibly after the first 12July parade goes off peacefully in Dublin's O Connell St past the GPO?

The way things are going with garda rrecruitment and retention of personel being a major problem and the slow creep of the EU vine into our day to day lives.Dont be surprised if all the police forces are integrated into a EU wide police force.

Possibl in your old age if our "Garda"is from Germany or Poland or Spain or further afield and toting a full vest load out more suitable for a combat zone than rural ireland while driving a Humvee style patrol car, with som kind of smart fingerprint recognition saftey style caseless ammo blaster.

Manic Moran

Part 2

https://youtu.be/ZddZWFJ-iM8

It was a hell of a lot of fun.

As an interesting cultural comparison, even in the US it is somewhat frowned upon to wear military gear at competitions for perception reasons (outright prohibited in IPSC, for example), but in Finland, it’s highly encouraged. Most of their men are military reservists (conscription), and even those who aren’t, they want to be capable of fighting, so if you see footage of the locals shooting, many of them are wearing their issue kit. As a result, they had to be a little creative in their implementation on EU Directives limiting the availability of standard capacity magazines, but as you can see, all the competitors (barring the LARPers) had them, including those from other nations. The fine details of the local legislation are beyond my ken.

kowloon

Anyone have any other German importers they can recommend me? Thought I had my import sorted but they haven't been back in contact since I provided a letter of import from Justice. Waffentaxi never got back to me and Triebel only export guns bought from them. It's mad that the likes of UPS have brought stuff to my door in the past from the US but from a closer country inside the EU they won't touch a gun.

Grizzly 45

Keep hacking at waffentaxi until you get a answer. Ireland isn't on their favourite delivery routes because of our slow /awkward/not up to speed customs&excise who seem to screw up every delivery they are involved with.Otherwise you have DPD DeutschePost and their prices are ridicilous.

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637495#Comment_122637495

aI've had the full customs experience before. Fun times.

kowloon

I sent them another e-mail that I've run through Google translate. The person on the phone at Waffen Taxi doesn't speak English and my German doesn't exist.

dublincc2

Would I be correct to assume the ERU are the unit that uses the DA/SA P226? I am aware that only one unit has them and the rest are DAO (no decocker).

dublincc2

Also curious about the capacity of the Garda P226 DAO. Something seems to be off.

When Det Gda Colm Horkan (RIP) was murdered, it was mentioned that all 15 rounds were discharged from the P226 he was carrying, of which 11 hit his body. This is unusual, as the P226 has a magazine capacity of 15, and as far as I am aware all Gardaí who carry firearms do so with one loaded into the chamber. So in that case there should have been 16 rounds discharged.

Is it just the case that they insert the 15rd magazine and rack the slide leaving 14 in the mag? Or is the gun carried empty as in (as far as I’m aware the only country practicing this) Israel? If so, why do they not take advantage of the 15+1?

Uinseann_16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122967381#Comment_122967381

Quite simple , he loaded a mag and chambered a round and holstered it he didn't add one in the chamber beforehand

I would say that's just the way it goes same with army

Mellor

This is unusual, as the P226 has a magazine capacity of 15, and as far as I am aware all Gardaí who carry firearms do so with one loaded into the chamber. So in that case there should have been 16 rounds discharged.

It's really not unusual.
If your mag has a capacity of 15. Then it'll be far more common to carry 15 rounds.
Obvious you can chamber one, but I wouldn't expect that to the norm.

Grizzly 45

Or is the gun carried empty as in (as far as I’m aware the only country practicing this) Israel? If so, why do they not take advantage of the 15+1?

The only people in Israel who did carry on an empty chamber were Mossad "Kidon"[trans;Bayonet]hit teams,and it is a very well dated by todays standards technique too.The only reason they do/did this is because if they were going to terminate someone in some European or Middle East city back in the 70s /80s Israel also still at the time had a hodge podge mix of eclectic small arms as personal issued sidearms ,they would rely on whatever the local black market can supply or was a deniable firearm from where ever.

So you haven't got a lot of time to get intimate with the controls of some strange gun. Its a lot easier to carry on an empty chamber,saftey off, and as you approach the target rack the slide, POINT the gun at close range,and pull the trigger and keep walking to the car that just pulled up in front of you in the instant chaos and confusion of a gunshot and some guy lying dead on the pavement for a very quick trip to the nearest airport and flight out.

Not exactly a needed skill set as either an AGS armed PC Garda or an average Israeli city cop these days.

As for carrying "one up the spout" on the loaded mag.It depends on what your forces policy is on this issue.Usually decided by things like lawsuits on negligent discharges .Or "politics" well above your pay grade.

BSA International

If you need 15 rounds, you're in a serious world of hurt 🫣

One up the spout is Hollywood or war zone stuff

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122970784#Comment_122970784

Thar she blows, fuddlore ahoy…

If you need 15 rounds, you're in a serious world of hurt

Considering that the vast majority of armed police forces carry 2-3 mags(1 in the gun, 1-2 spare on the belt) and the norm for a modern centrefire handgun is 15+ rounds, it is far from unusual.

Aside from the obvious (ammunition needs in a serious incident), the fact is magazines are a mechanical device and suffer from degradation, damage, wear, etc which can impact their function.
I was at a shooting match on the continent about a decade ago, and there were a lot of police in attendance competing.
One in particular was there with his competition gun, and his duty firearm.
His comp gun had a significant malfunction and, after trying to clear it, he timed out on the stage.
With his comp gun off the table he shot the next stage of the match with his duty firearm. About mid way through he had another malfunction.

After finishing the stage and inspecting both guns post match 3 of his 6 mags(shared between both comp and duty guns) had defects which had caused the malfunctions. IIRC bent feed lips on 2, and the third I don't recall.

Magazines at the heel of the hunt are a disposable part of a firearm, and as such it is policy to carry at least one backup magazine(in the vast majority of police forces) to protect against the eventuality of a magazine related malfunction, in addition to the aforementioned potential for a single magazine worth of ammunition not being sufficient.
There are innumerable videos of and reports of shootings where the individual shot was reportedly unaffected by numerous bullet impacts, both from lack of marksmanship from the shooters involved and the relatively terminally inefficient nature of handgun rounds.

Famously 50 cent was shot 9 times and survived, if you had a 15 round magazine and multiple assailants that runs down fast.
Even more impressive was Master Sergeant Roy Benavidez, jaw broken, shot and bayonetted 37 times and survived, well earning the Medal of Honor.
Absolute units of history like Benavidez aside, 3 pistol mags is not unusual, and is indeed the normal amount for our nearest completely armed police force the PSNI, 1 in the gun and 2 spare in pouches on the belt.

One up the spout is Hollywood or war zone stuff

And on the loaded chamber, this was standard for carry firearms for a very long time.
Even back to the 1950s after he returned from Korea Jeff Cooper was lobbying for and training people to carry pistols(in particular 1911s) in condition 1(round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on).

The FBI, NYPD, LAPD, RCMP, PSNI, USMC, German Bundespolizei policies all note condition 1 carry(somewhat modified for Glocks and other safe action pistols without a manual safety) as the standard, and with a modern pistol designed either with manual or internal safeties and kept in a holster correctly designed for it, there is no danger in doing so.

"Hollywood or war zone stuff" indeed. 🙄

BSA International

Fudlore.

In your world maybe.

This Is a thread on Garda not America

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122970962#Comment_122970962

You can add the DEA to that list and DHS. I also have a buddy in the IDF, every defence or law enforcement unit in Israel carries handguns in condition 1. It's an old myth that they don't, as per Grizzly's explanation above.

JP22

Don’t know AGS SOP.

Back in day when I served in DF SOP was always to carry safe.

BAP, 2 mags and 18rds of 9mm ball, loaded with mag of 9 rds, chamber empty, just rack it and you’re ready to go.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122972397#Comment_122972397

The P35 Hi Power or BAP is a 13 shot mag,mag spring weakness aside,was there any particular reason to carry the mags underloaded by three? Just curious.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122970962#Comment_122970962

So the PSNI carry their Glock 17 Gen 3s with 1 in chamber? That would make for a total of 52 9mm rounds for every officer somewhat overkill even in the threat environment that NI has.

Soemwhat unrelated, do the PSNI carry hollow point 9mm or FMJ? I know that AGS use 115 grain FMJ round nose 9mm, which I was surprised at in this day and age.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122975519#Comment_122975519

So the PSNI carry their Glock 17 Gen 3s with 1 in chamber? That would make for a total of 52 9mm rounds for every officer somewhat overkill even in the threat environment that NI has.

It's actually the norm for most modern police agencies, not AGS evidently (outdated policy, shocker), but the vast majority.

If AGS do carry standard ball fmj 9mm that just reinforces their practices/policies being seriously outdated.

Cheaper though, which along with lack of ballistics knowledge is likely the reason if they do indeed carry ball.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122975519#Comment_122975519

Would it be standard to chamber one and pop another in the mag?

JP22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122974154#Comment_122974154

Hey Grizz.

To be honest, after serving 34 years, i have no idea. It was always 18rds split over two mags, I can only guess someone somewhere in higher places made this decision.

Sonic the Shaghog

Knowing the Irish government they'll chance their arm with a free crate of old wembleys sitting in some dusty underground UK bunker they'll get for cents a piece

Grizzly 45

On the Ball ammo .

Military thinking and following the Hauge Convention of 18??that prohibits any sort of hollow point,cut ,barbed,poisioned,gas tipped or otherwise ammunition being used in warfare by any Military force.This does NOT apply to police forces! They can use any type of ammo on civilians.

I remember a friend of the fam who was a SB man showing me his S&W .38 in the 90s and the ammo was lead .38Wadcutter!!!Closest thing to a Dum Dum round you could get.

So I would assume AGS is aware of a more modern choice of ammo for LE out there.