Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

BattleCorp

Attempting to segregate people never ends well.

I'm in favour of the vaccine (I've had it myself) but I'm not happy at all with the way the vaccine pass is going to be used to deny service to those who are unvaccinated.

otmmyboy2

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117650037#Comment_117650037

But the vaccine, as I stated, still allows you to get, spread, and die from covid!

The vaccine is not the silver bullet we have been originally told it is. The official line is now usually "it may lessen your chances of getting covid, and may lessen the symptoms if you do get it".

Thus why should people who don't want the vaccine be forced & coerced into it by denying them equal status with those who have it?

If you are so confident in the vaccine protecting you then why do others need to have it?

Same argument as to why people wear pathetically uncertified "fashion masks", which say on their packaging that they provide no benefit against covid 19, and insist that they are doing it to protect others?!

You aren't, you are simply regurgitating the same rhetoric that has been fed to you.

If you actually wanted to be safe you would wear a proper certified mask, with eye protection, and decon yourself, your groceries, your mask, etc after every trip into the outside world. But no, the virtue signalling fashion masks have it covered lol.

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117650054#Comment_117650054

And those restrictions are ok are they?

Religions - there are several who explicitly refuse all vaccinations, others which refuse some, others still which are refusing this, see my previous answer and do your own research outside the echo chamber.

Cultural - ok, so the aftermath of distrust in governments based on the heinous and atrocious acts they have perpetrated leading into being covid(not vaccinations as a whole) skeptic is not a culture? Actually it is, a culture of distrust with a solid base in reacting to past disgraceful acts by the same gov that says now that you can trust it, everything is fine!

Not sure how many Thalidomide victims are still around and kicking in Ireland but I'd be sure based on their experiences that they would be skeptical too, and with good reason.

Or in your opinion are they just "vax skeptic" too? 🙄

On the segregation front I'm sure everyone who has been discriminated against because you feel it to be a "practical approach" completely understands your lack of humanity, which I'm sure extends right up to the point where you are the one being discriminated against.

What other segregation would you be in favour of, since it it a practical approach?

Shopping? Public services? Outdoor dining? Public spaces?

Where exactly does your line extend to, their front doors?

Grizzly 45

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117650021#Comment_117650021

The above is not aimed at you personally Feisar .Its a statement of the groupthink that is befalling society these days.Yeah,they did,because they handed it away bit by bit,until it was too late to say or do anything,without risking your life and family. We already have some lunatic in the journal.ie advocating that unemployment benefits should be denied to anyone not vaccinated this week!Only a short step then to denying you enternce to a shop to buy food.

Tell ya what.Lets leave this topic until this time and date next year, and lets see what other rights we have and dont think twice about today have disappered by this date July 2022?After all Vaccine passports was a right wing conspiracy tinfoil hat wearing idiots fantasy this time last year,and now people are virtue signalling ab out how they have one .

Well enjoy your indoor dining and drinking. My advice dont sit too close to the windows.. Might catch a brick being flung in by one of the "covid undesireables".Which IS going to happen eventually.

otmmyboy2

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117650727#Comment_117650727

Indeed, never in the course of history has a country which has segregated people come off well after the fact.

Native Americans moved onto reservations & the Japanese in WW2 internment camps in the US, the first concentration camps by the Brits in the Boer war, the Nazis in WW2 with Jews, gypsies, ethnic minorities, religious orders, etc, the London Cage(only learned about that recently) by the British in WW2, the various African implementations(SA in particular in recent history).

I am completely in favour of anyone who wants, using that free will that Feisar disregards, to get the vaccine.

In fact I agree that some people may indeed benefit significantly from any increased protection it may provide.

However similarly I cannot agree with people who choose not to get it being legislated against in an attempt to increase vaccine uptake.

With this article I can only imagine the next steps being planned currently:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40343345.html

"Looking at 12-16 year olds" 🤮🤮🤮

I wonder will there be a push to get that age group vaccinated before schools reopen, and denying places to those who refuse to get the vaccine. That's my prediction for the future anyway.

Feisar

And those restrictions are ok are they? - Apologies, I meant as a general thing, i.e. speed limits

Religions - there are several who explicitly refuse all vaccinations, others which refuse some, others still which are refusing this, see my previous answer and do your own research outside the echo chamber. - I did a few google searches, it's a very limited number and in Ireland almost nil

Cultural - ok, so the aftermath of distrust in governments based on the heinous and atrocious acts they have perpetrated leading into being covid(not vaccinations as a whole) skeptic is not a culture? Actually it is, a culture of distrust with a solid base in reacting to past disgraceful acts by the same gov that says now that you can trust it, everything is fine! - You are twisting the definition of cultural as it applies to being a genuine reason not to get the vaccination to suit your argument

Not sure how many Thalidomide victims are still around and kicking in Ireland but I'd be sure based on their experiences that they would be skeptical too, and with good reason.

Or in your opinion are they just "vax skeptic" too? 🙄 - not relevant to the discussion at hand.

On the segregation front I'm sure everyone who has been discriminated against because you feel it to be a "practical approach" completely understands your lack of humanity, which I'm sure extends right up to the point where you are the one being discriminated against. - Right lets say you are a business owner, would you rather some people in now or wait till everyone is vaccinated. And yes I can be overly cold on these things and somewhat black and white. In terms of personal discrimination, I can't say to be honest. My wife went through a miscarriage which had complications. It meant several hospital trips on her own, well me outside. All the while the rules didn't seem to apply to travelers. That rankled.

This isn't a sympathy vote by the way, just something that happened that I'm using as am example.

What other segregation would you be in favour of, since it it a practical approach?

Shopping? Public services? Outdoor dining? Public spaces?

Where exactly does your line extend to, their front doors?

You are being overly dramatic here.

Feisar

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117651069#Comment_117651069

You could be right, you give an inch and the bastards will want the other 63,359.

Grizzly 45

 In terms of personal discrimination, I can't say to be honest. My wife went through a miscarriage which had complications. It meant several hospital trips on her own, well me outside. All the while the rules didn't seem to apply to travelers. That rankled.

Sorry to hear that bTW.

But as you can see it won't apply to them, as they know how to play the "RASCIST" card. So as they say when in Rome...

otmmyboy2

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117651139#Comment_117651139

A lot of business owners are actually refusing & delaying their reopening because they disagree with the vaccine segregation legislation.

Several are only doing outdoor dining for all. Were I in their position I wouldn't be discriminating against anyone, regardless of their private medical decisions.

My sympathy about your & your wife's predicament. Several friends had children in the course of the past year and a half and it was heartbreaking to see the fathers left outside and not being able to accompany their wife. That was and is utterly wrong and received a significant outcry and should never have been allowed to happen. On the traveler front might I suspect they didn't have the security numbers to prevent them?

Having seen their weddings and similar in marquees and guards leaning on their cars refusing to do anything I can well believe that your experience rankled too.

However in that case you were evidently treated differently than other group, and that rankled? Same thing is happening here realistically.

Everyone should be treated the same, not like second class citizens because of some arbitrary law, whether that covers being a traveler or being vaccinated.

On the final "being overly dramatic" front.

If I had been shouting on here a year ago about vaccine passports people would have called me a conspiracy theorist.

I was thus labelled several times over the past year and a half by family, friends and of course complete strangers on the internet. Among other such colourful things as "you want nurses to die" and being labelled a fascist too.

However since a lot of those "conspiracy theories" have now come true I am making my predictions for the future.

And you did not answer that last either. Is just discriminating against people with regards to travel and indoor dining ok?

Should it, in your view, extend further?

Where does your line end?

I am genuinely curious, since by your own admission you were discriminated against because you were not a traveler and thus could not accompany your wife. That was wrong, as is this form of discrimination, the only difference now being this doesn't affect you, and relates to dining.

So where does it end?

Dining? Schools? Shops? Filling stations? Domestic travel?

Feisar

Where does it end, in terms of restrictions? Luxuries would be a rough guideline. We could always look at it the other way, those without the vaccine aren't restricted, it's actually those with it that have additional privileges!

I've no problem admitting I can be overly zealous with a lack of empathy. Having said that, saying divided societies never flourish/leads to trouble and giving examples like the Jews in Germany or American Indian's is overly dramatic. - Not necessarily your comments

I can logically understand your points, well laid out that they were however I cannot make the emotional leap to your point of view.

otmmyboy2

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117651463#Comment_117651463

The devil in the details so, define all the luxuries? 😉

Not trying to be facetious with that but realistically that is an impossible thing to define with any measure of consistency?

And even if you did manage it then why should some be elevated above others?

Whether you look at it like a, and I am cringing as I type this, "vaccine bonus", or an unvaccinated penalty the result is the same - a two tier society.

I just cannot come around to the viewpoint that any kind of two tier society, regardless of the details of the segregation, is acceptable.

Hell, even if it was does that then mean there could be unvaccinated only restaurants which do indoor dining, etc?

Surely in that case if people are unwilling to mix with unvaccinated people then they only need to avoid those places.

If we are going the segregation route then is that the next step down the line? In other segregated countries those who were on either side had places they could go and the other side could not, will that happen here?

I rather doubt it because the stated goal is to get everyone to take the vaccine, so there will be no equaling of the playing field in that regard.

hiddenmongoose

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117650037#Comment_117650037

It's very selfish and narrow minded to get the benefit of the vaccination via everyone else getting it.......You mean the benefits of being a free person enjoying your normal rights? as opposed to not allowed to enjoy those rights unless you take the ''optional'' vaccine.

Lets all decide not to take it and remain in perpetual lockdown.......If the vaccine works and its all the fault of the unvaccinated then why is it that vaccinated people are testing positive and can transmit it? everyone being vaccinated wont end this..and you are also ignoring the whole natural immunity side. the vaccine isnt a silver bullet and non vaccinated people are not the sole cause of positive cases.

As for perpetual lockdowns well did you ever ask yourself was a lockdown a smart move in the first place...if the first lockdown was a success why did we need a second and if the first locdown was a failure why did we do a second? There were other options that could have been employed.

Grizzly 45

So as the 6/1 news this evening if you wish to dine with the vaccinated Ubermenschen.

You now must provide PHOTO ID and your phone number as well to bar staff or the Matrie D!!!

This is an actual first in the history of the Irish state...We have NEVER been asked or compelled to carry personal photo ID on us in this country in the course of normal day to day living to identify ourselves to arbitrary strangers or authority types.[And NO a drivers license is not an ID card or accepted as such in the EU] Quite scary how far in a matter of weeks this mission creep has gone.

From a digital Covid ID, ostensibly only for international travel, but now becoming an EU wide State identifier,and now our lot wanting you to provide " Big Bob and Burly Ben the doormen" with your phone number and passport!! Funny how the sacroscent Data protection and privacy laws can be blatantly ignored when it suits this govt. Scary times folks!

solarwinds

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117653692#Comment_117653692

Wouldn't it be handy if we could have all our id, medical records and covid passes all on one handy little card ?.

I wonder how long before that one is suggested again, because well it would be just so much handier than taking out numerous bits of paper. No more than Europe our own lot have a way of getting just what they want as well.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657938#Comment_117657938

Did we have to carry ID here in Black 47?🤔

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657975#Comment_117657975

Already happening with the green cert.The alothgrim can be modified to include a picture.Well why not introduce a social credit scoring like China as well?And introduce like what that clown in London Boris Johnston is being sold by some "experts"to tackle obesity,a social scoring on what food and drink you buy and how you much you exercise.So you are "rewarded"by your govt for losing weight....And on it goes...Just wondering how long it will be before they turn their attention on us gunowners ...Cant have the unvaxxed unclean ones armed now can we?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117651037#Comment_117651037

I’m not getting into the vaccine pass stuff. I don’t like how it’s handled at all FWIW. But to answer this question;

”If you are so confident in the vaccine protecting you then why do others need to have it?”

Vaccines for highly mutable only really work effectively when most people are protected.

Take MMR for example. Kids get vaccined against it. Infant mortality is a fraction of pre 20th century. But anti-vax lunatics refusing to protect their kids is still an issue for the population. As multiple unvaccinated people lead to mutations. And an unvax’d child could infect a vaccinated children with a strain.

I get that there is concerns about this fast tracked vax. People are right to question that. But on the other hand, time wasn’t a infinite luxury.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658217#Comment_117658217

I do believe we are heading to a increasingly homogenized world. Think Demolition Man or Equilibrium. It seemed mad and futuristic in Demo Man that salt and red meat were banned, now it looks like it's around the corner.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117663149#Comment_117663149

I never heard of Demo Man or Equilibrium before, (I'm guessing they are aimed at kids or the the type of adults that enjoy Star Wars) but I wouldn't worry about salt and/or red meat being banned in the real world at anytime, never mind the near future.

It's ridiculous to suggest it.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117659534#Comment_117659534

Not too many that I've talked to have no complaints about the vaccine pass stuff alright.

But in the case you mention above with highly mutatable viruses then the only solution would be vaccines up to herd immunity(which used to be ~ 70 percent I believe), but now nphet want 85-90%?

For something that is supposed to be optional I think that is rather a drastic uptick.

Particularly since the vaccine still does not prevent you from getting, carrying, passing on, or dying from, covid.

I really feel that the vaccine is viewed as a silver bullet by many, whereas the reality seems to be there is zero end in sight to all the legislative restrictions on people, regardless of vaccination status or coverage rate.

Understand that time was and is not an infinite luxury, but it goes both ways.

People could dine indoors during the pandemic previously, but now it is too dangerous even though most are now, supposedly anyway, safer because of the proportion of vaccinated people.

I could understand these kind of measures a year ago, maybe, when there were a lot more uncertains and there had been no real time to increase hospital capacity, etc.

But now a year on from that and a year and a half into covid restrictions and there still seems to be no end in sight, and worse restrictions are arguably getting worse.

Yes you can travel around the country now, whereas you couldn't before, but now something else has been taken away as a result.

People are already predicting another series of lockdowns around September/October when cold & flu season begins again, because covid cases(not necessarily deaths, just cases) will go up.

I have zero problem with those who want to get vaccinated, but I cannot countenance a segregated society, particularly based on something so fickle.

Not do I see any real end in sight to the covid laws and restrictions.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117663638#Comment_117663638

I think the heard immunity % required to eradicate a virus depends on the virus. But 85-90% is pretty typical for highly contagious diseases.

vaccines aren’t always 100% effective. You can still get the flu after the flu jab.

Seatbejrsbatent 100% effective either. You can still died or get hurt in a crash wearing a seatbelt.

I don’t think being less than 100% effective makes the vax useless, but many people online are carrying on like it is.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117663703#Comment_117663703

Not useless, but certainly is not the magical cure which, once they get up to whatever number they want, will eradicate the virus.

It isn't going to happen and what was discussed months ago needs to happen, a plan for living with covid which doesn't result in a continuing series of measures and other restrictions whenever cases go up, with zero action done to increase hospital capacity which is, supposedly, the reason for being concerned about cases.

If that is the problem then why haven't they fixed it. 🙄

If that is not the problem then figure out what is, but don't keep throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

otmmyboy2

Also this:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

Most estimates for covid are between 60-70% for herd immunity.

Not just vaccines, but also naturally acquired immunity(either naturally immune or having had covid already), so going for 90% of people vaccinated is still insanely high:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-herd-immunity-needs-90-of-people-to-be-vaccinated-hse-says-1.4628150

Not to mention the questions about the longevity that vaccines are effective for.

I mean if it is 6 months for example like the gov here estimate for post covid infection immunity then what, 6 month boosters for the rest of out lives?

No end to vaccine passes so in that case.

I just cannot see any end in sight to all the penal measures here.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117663352#Comment_117663352

Demolition Man is your typical 80s/90s action film. I wasn't on the marketing team so I don't know who they were focusing on. I'm not saying meat is getting banned next week. However there is a push in that direction.

Funny one on an ad board on the way into town, a few weeks about it was stop live export of anamils on the grounds of cruelty. That ad was replaced by an Aldi or Lidl one advertising steaks.

On adults enjoying Star Wars, a past time is a past time, watching a game of football or a film, one isn't better than the other. Unless one is actually playing and increasing fitness or working on a life skill it's just another way of putting in time.

Grizzly 45

God help him if we had suggested Minority report.🤣🤣

Banning meat...Hmmm lets see....We have Mr Bill Gates now being the biggest private farm landowner in the USA,and he has suggested that to reduce Greenhouse gases" we should look at making meat unaffordable and consider a more plant based diet

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bill-gates-beef-plant-based-alternatives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/05/bill-gates-climate-crisis-farmland

We then have others suggesting that a healthier option is start to eat bugs in "protein bars"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2283364/Grubs-Insects-packed-protein-calcium-minerals-imagine-ordering-mealworm-burger.html

Then we have the Exo Fascists the water melons suggesting that a climate tax on food is a good idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49281111

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/04/uk-health-professions-call-for-climate-tax-on-meat

Soylent Green anyone?😵

Yeah, they won't ban it, they'll just tax the **** out of it to force you to change as it becomes unaffordable.

Same as banning the import of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030...Just drive this expensive useless POS,while they still drive past you in their petrol powered Mercs...

All of course while you are living in your Communistic pod, owning nothing, and liking it under the "great reset"

Remember folks today is the day July 26th 2021 you have to bring your Covid tag and your passport to an Irish pub for a pint!!!😡

Had you said this a year ago,you would be labelled a tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy nutter. Yet today,and for the rest of your lives, this will be the new normal. So don't poo-poo "science fiction" as it has a nasty habit of becoming "Science FACT"

Grizzly 45

"On adults enjoying Star Wars, a past time is a past time, watching a game of football or a film, one isn't better than the other. Unless one is actually playing and increasing fitness or working on a life skill it's just another way of putting in time."

If you were to take a shallow look at it,then yes. "The bug eyed monsters "scenarios and scripts are the shallow end of the pool

Science fiction is actually a lot deeper than that.it is also a springboard and a "what if" scenario for ideas that might seem bizarre and outlandish to us now but do become factual as we progress in time.EG take Star Trek. the original series was aired the year I was born [1966].Who wasn't impressed by the enterprise's crews nifty flip-open communicator?Or Doc Mc Coys medical Trirecorder? Flip open phones are rather quaint these days.Zoom call programmes on them ...how long was the dream of seeing who you were talking to on a device a mainstay of science fiction? As for Bones tri recorder ... https://www.healthline.com/health-news/medical-device-used-in-star-trek-is-now-a-reality#How-the-winning-device-works

Anyone remembers as a kid being told "Those stupid TV games won't get you anywhere in life and they are time wasters!"? Nowadays a professional gamer can make more than a lawyer in some cases.

As well as being a disguised social commentary, like Demolition man, Minority report,Elysium,1984,Tthe shape of things to come, Brave new world, Soylent Green. Or a warning in satire of dictatorships or racism.1984, The Moon is a harsh mistress, Fahrenheit 451, District 9, Alien Nation.

In fact if you wanted to see science fiction handle all sorts of modern-day political and social topics bothering us in the early 21st century. I'd highly recommend Battlestar Galactica.

[Not the silly Big hair 1980s Tv series.] The four-season long one done in the Oughties. Everything from apartheid, suicide bombing,state-approved torture, revolutions, rebellions, genocide, invading different cultures,voter fraud, religious fanatism and civil war to dealing with gender differences and multi sexes was covered in that brilliant bit of Scifi TV. And it wasn't all lazers .They were still using firearms and HUMVEES as personal weapons and transport in some cases. So it was kind of normal too.

So to dismiss a now well established literary genre as just some "adults who haven't grown up or a "childish hobby" is the sign of a closed small mind.

Grizzly 45

Fun&games with Uncle Joe!!!

Can you guess what Sleepy Joe is saying in this clip? Millions of Americans cant figure it out either.!

I think it's "I've left your bike!/Mike/ Dyke? Or he is practising calling cattle for when he comes over to visit the relatives again.😜

https://trendingpolitics.com/no-one-knows-what-the-hell-biden-just-blurted-out-in-this-viral-clip-knab/?utm_source=ilmf&utm_medium=klaviyo&_kx=fFWAv12s_AYYvmCNsIAvgW5lp3kJrhV-dVnPkV85A8s%3D.XhZFkN

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664169#Comment_117664169

I have no interest in Demolition Man or Star Wars but I am interested in meat and I can tell you it's not getting banned anytime.

Fox News tried to spread some story recently that Joe Biden was trying to ban red meat and it was quickly exposed as another typical rubbish makey uppy story spun to discredit The President. Maybe that was where you got the idea from.

I can't imagine where you got the notion salt was going to be banned but it wouldn't surprise me if Fox News started that fantasy too.

Grizzly 45

THIS is where it actually came from

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9517669/Experts-say-Americans-cut-meat.html

And hey,if the Dems can "misspeak" on many subjects,Dont you think the Reps can be afforded the same courtesy?🤪 Ol Joe doesn't need to be discredited,he is doing that perfectly every day himself.

Rows Grower

President Biden has an approval rate of 53% after 6 months in the job, that is the most steady approval rating of any President since the end of WW11.

To claim he is discrediting himself everyday is balderdash and more likely to be a case of you projecting or reading too much far right propaganda.

You shouldn't fall into the trap of having a closed small mind, may the force be with you.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/26/politics/fact-check-biden-climate-plan-red-meat-hamburger/index.html

Grizzly 45

You know Rows there is a German saying." He who digs a pit for someone else falls into it themselves. And Boy oh boy did you fall into your own pit with your post above...🤣🤣🤣🤣 Suggestion..Go look in a mirror before you project and hit the keyboard,as everything you have said above reflects nicely about you as well .

And DO try and quote something believable as a news source, CNN that has its nose so far up Bidens old arse its pathetic at this stage. Heres the Gallup poll.. Its 50% for a start...https://news.gallup.com/poll/329384/presidential-approval-ratings-joe-biden.aspx