Munster Team Talk Thread VI - Stander Up and Fight

The Lost Sheep

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

shootermacg wrote: »

Mathewson is the perfect complement to Murray, he seems to bring a lot of pace to the game which is something Munster can build on.

Do Munster need to need two world class scrum halves with different styles. I would say yes, regardless of the whataboutery from the usual boys in blue.

I hope we pony up the money and keep him, I wouldn't even say he's a step down from Murray, just a different style.

He isnt world class and is certainly a step down from Murray regardless of being a different style player.

troyzer

I suppose there's two issues to unpack here.

Are Munster claiming he's necessary and that's why he needs to be kept? If so, this is clearly bull**** and it's indefensible. He was picked up for a specific reason which is now gone. He should be gone too.

Or, as we all suspect, it's because Munster just want to keep him on form. If that's the case, then I do genuinely think McCarthy should be giving the choice to reassess. He left his home province when it was clear that he'd be fighting for the 21 jersey. He's not an academy player, he's had European experience and he needs a **** load of Pro14 minutes right now to keep developing. If Alby is kept, he won't be getting that.

That aside, if Munster want to keep him as one of their NIQs (there is no hard limit of course but Munster are due to lose a few either due to being cut or becoming Irish eligible) then fine. But it does seem an awful waste of a limited NIQ slot to spend on a backup. The era of the project player is dead for the most part. Whereas before there was a clear distinction between an import who could play for Ireland one day and one who couldn't, now there isn't. Not really. And that means you have to use your NIQ slots much more carefully.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

It's only an awful waste of an NIE slot if there are other positions crying out for an NIE signing. Calling it BS and indefensible to re-sign a medical joker who has outperformed reasonable expectations is hysterical.

Is there a need in the following positions:

LH - No
Hooker - No
TH - Possibly
Lock - No
Backrow - No; Cloete and Botha are already signed.
FH - No
Centre - No; Taute will be let go and has already been replaced by Irish players.
Back three - No

Again, FWIW, I don't expect Mathewson to be retained beyond the season because a) Munster won't be allowed and/or b) Mathewson will receive a better offer elsewhere as Munster aren't going to break the bank to sign a backup player.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's only an awful waste of an NIE slot if there are other positions crying out for an NIE signing.

Is there a need in the following positions:

LH - No
Hooker - No
TH - Possibly
Lock - No
Backrow - No; Cloete and Botha are already signed.
FH - No
Centre - No; Taute will be let go and has already been replaced by Irish players.
Back three - No

What about when we get Joey back?

phog

Is Alby the first player to arrive at a club as injury cover and then to get a full contract?

Zzippy

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's only an awful waste of an NIE slot if there are other positions crying out for an NIE signing. Calling it BS and indefensible to re-sign a medical joker who has outperformed reasonable expectations is hysterical.

Is there a need in the following positions:

LH - No
Hooker - No
TH - Possibly
Lock - No
Backrow - No; Cloete and Botha are already signed.
FH - No
Centre - No; Taute will be let go and has already been replaced by Irish players.
Back three - No

Again, FWIW, I don't expect Mathewson to be retained beyond the season because a) Munster won't be allowed and/or b) Mathewson will receive a better offer elsewhere as Munster aren't going to break the bank to sign a backup player.

It's not BS in a case where a club has already signed a player for that exact position for the following season. Which is why he should not be kept beyond this season. If Munster had not signed McCarthy (and thereby seen to be developing Irish talent) then they would have a stronger case for keeping Mathewson. And again, even if there is a set no. of NIE slots per province, which is no longer certain, it is a limit, not a target, and certainly not ideal to be looking to fill as many NIE slots as allowed.

Eod100

Is he really on big bucks?

Shefwedfan

It is the same every season, some random foreign player....Munster NEED him...usual out rage, poor Munster, IRFU ganging up on them, XYZ

Moore was one of the most recent....what exactly would have happened Scannell if Moore was allowed to join?

Eod100

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It is the same every season, some random foreign player....Munster NEED him...usual out rage, poor Munster, IRFU ganging up on them, XYZ

Moore was one of the most recent....what exactly would have happened Scannell if Moore was allowed to join?

Haven't seen any of that on this forum to be fair.

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It is the same every season, some random foreign player....Munster NEED him...usual out rage, poor Munster, IRFU ganging up on them, XYZ

I presume you can provide plenty more examples since it seems to be such a common occurrence?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Moore was one of the most recent....what exactly would have happened Scannell if Moore was allowed to join?

And I'm sure I've said it before, but Nucifora is on record as saying he didn't block Munsters approach for Moore; Moore himself turned down Munster's offer.

EDIT: Yeeeeep, found it. Would still be interested in answer to my question below as well fwiw.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Anyone remember Stephen Moore and the up roar after Munster wasn't allowed sign him

aloooof wrote: »

And fwiw, Nucifora is on record as saying he didn't block the Stephen Moore deal, Moore just didn't accept Munster's offer.

What positions do you think it acceptable for Munster to sign an overseas player?

Tomtom364

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

phog wrote: »

Is Alby the first player to arrive at a club as injury cover and then to get a full contract?

No, Taute did exactly this.#

Arrive as injury cover in October until End of December, Extended to end of season. Get a 2 year Contract.... get a crippling knee injury and not be the same again

yerrahbah

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It is the same every season, some random foreign player....Munster NEED him...usual out rage, poor Munster, IRFU ganging up on them, XYZ

Moore was one of the most recent....what exactly would have happened Scannell if Moore was allowed to join?

An all black is hardly some random foreign player

Munster do not NEED him, but no denying he would be useful

Who is outraged and by what?

Who said poor Munster and that the IRFU are ganging up on them?

I'd imagine Scannell would have been just fine if Moore had joined.
Might have even picked up a thing or two

Ideally i'd like to keep Alby, Be handy to have around the RWC

Can't see it happening for the reasons Thomond said.

All this came from JvG being asked about Alby's contract and JvG saying he would like to keep him.

Well hes not exactly going to say that he doesnt want to keep him

Kirk Van Houten

No NIEs as back up players, since when has this been a directive or even something dreamt up those who keep reading Mole articles about squads.

Don't remember this being a "thing" when Tomane signed for Leinster or Liduk in Ulster or Botha in Munster. Does it only apply to scrum halfs????????

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

No NIEs as back up players, since when has this been a directive or even something dreamt up those who keep reading Mole articles about squads.

I actually agree with some of your points, but the constant Mole references are pretty condescending at this stage; just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically mean they've lifted their opinions from somewhere else.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Did the Mole not cover it in his article?

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

I'll awaited a detailed review in last season's numbers when Mole covers it in another article.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Seems a few posters are after reading the Moles article on Munsters squad and are now experts on squad depth and how many out halfs each province should have. If only they looked back one season for comparison, but then again I don't think the Mole covered that in his article.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The level of whataboutery and goal shifting by the MOLFs in this thread is just stunning.

I wonder what the next Mole article will be about.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Good thing Munster and the IRFU are looking at this and not some lads who have read an article from the Mole and know everything.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The whole Savea thing may help him make his mind up. But I'm sure all the Mole blog readers know better. ��������

Kirk Van Houten

aloooof wrote: »

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

No NIEs as back up players, since when has this been a directive or even something dreamt up those who keep reading Mole articles about squads.

I actually agree with some of your points, but the constant Mole references are pretty condescending at this stage; just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically mean they've lifted their opinions from somewhere else.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Did the Mole not cover it in his article?

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

I'll awaited a detailed review in last season's numbers when Mole covers it in another article.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Seems a few posters are after reading the Moles article on Munsters squad and are now experts on squad depth and how many out halfs each province should have. If only they looked back one season for comparison, but then again I don't think the Mole covered that in his article.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The level of whataboutery and goal shifting by the MOLFs in this thread is just stunning.

I wonder what the next Mole article will be about.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Good thing Munster and the IRFU are looking at this and not some lads who have read an article from the Mole and know everything.

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The whole Savea thing may help him make his mind up. But I'm sure all the Mole blog readers know better. ��������

Maybe it's because I've had to post many responses to that particular article
and people's interpretation of it which have been shown to be incorrect.

Shefwedfan

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Maybe it's because I've had to post many responses to that particular article
and people's interpretation of it which have been shown to be incorrect.

Please enlighten us to what the correct interpretation should be?

Kirk Van Houten

A NIE as a back up to a first choice international regular is a perfectly good idea that has been around since the early 00s. It allows for a continuity of standard when that international is unavailable and in a lot of cases is used to help develop players around them.

Freddie Puccarillo did it when Marcus and Bull were first choice for Ireland. Botha is doing it in the back row for next season with CJ going to be missing. He can take the heavy carrying load off other players and allow Wycherley and others to focus on their game. Leinster used it with Isa and now Tomane and even Fardy.

It seems some posters either lack knowledge of how the system works or choose to ignore it to further their argument.

Kirk Van Houten

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Maybe it's because I've had to post many responses to that particular article
and people's interpretation of it which have been shown to be incorrect.

Please enlighten us to what the correct interpretation should be?

Well not being able to count the number of half backs in each province for a starter or the whataboutery when pointing out how many senior out halfs Leinster had last season is the same as they bloated number Munster have this season. Little FACTS like that. But you work away.

awec

This is the Munster thread. Non-Munster supporting posters are welcome to post, but remember that it's going to be pro-Munster discussion and pontification or sly little jibes will not be tolerated.

If you can't contain yourself and keep it civil and constructive, don't post in this thread.

Shefwedfan

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

A NIE as a back up to a first choice international regular is a perfectly good idea that has been around since the early 00s. It allows for a continuity of standard when that international is unavailable and in a lot of cases is used to help develop players around them.

Freddie Puccarillo did it when Marcus and Bull were first choice for Ireland. Botha is doing it in the back row for next season with CJ going to be missing. He can take the heavy carrying load off other players and allow Wycherley and others to focus on their game. Leinster used it with Isa and now Tomane and even Fardy.

It seems some posters either lack knowledge of how the system works or choose to ignore it to further their argument.

That arguement would be good only that Munster signed a player as a back up already and he is arriving in the summer.



Dont care if he is irish/NZ/SA whatever, Munster do not need to sign another player as back up....it is just a waste of money and resources



Also saying cover is needed for WC doesn't make sense, any games will be against Pro 14 sides who will also have the majority of their squad gone as well......

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Well not being able to count the number of half backs in each province for a starter or the whataboutery when pointing out how many senior out halfs Leinster had last season is the same as they bloated number Munster have this season. Little FACTS like that. But you work away.

That's not really an interpretation is it?

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Please enlighten us to what the correct interpretation should be?

You seem to have a strong opinion on Munster's NIQ's, so could you please enlighten us to what positions you think it acceptable for Munster to sign an overseas player?

Caranica

Keatley was released but neither Hart nor Williams has been. Is that indicative of the lack of demand for those players or caution in case we lose Alby?

Squidgy Black

Deysel powered va JJ

aloooof wrote: »

You seem to have a strong opinion on Munster's NIQ's, so could you please enlighten us to what positions you think it acceptable for Munster to sign an overseas player?

I'm a Leinster fan, and I couldn't give a shíte where any province signs NIQs for in the end, but the one loose guideline would be try to sign them as cover for a position where there isn't sufficient Irish cover (of a decentish standard).

Munster don't have any gaping needs for cover at the moment (from a quick glance) that would require a specific NIQ signing, but I would say potentially a back 3, especially during a RWC year. A utility player that could cover centre too (taking into account Farrell being gone and Bleyendaal potentially getting injured again) would be a good shout.

Squidgy Black

Deysel powered va JJ

Caranica wrote: »

Keatley was released but neither Hart nor Williams has been. Is that indicative of the lack of demand for those players or caution in case we lose Alby?

Hart is linked with going back to France, deal pending with Biarritz.

awec

Caranica wrote: »

Keatley was released but neither Hart nor Williams has been. Is that indicative of the lack of demand for those players or caution in case we lose Alby?

Are they both mid-contract?

Kirk Van Houten

Caranica wrote: »

Keatley was released but neither Hart nor Williams has been. Is that indicative of the lack of demand for those players or caution in case we lose Alby?

Keatley has been allowed to leave early because Tyler is now fit again and they deemed they had enough cover available in Carbery JJ Tyler and Bill J. But if London Irish didn't have an injury crisis at 10 he would still be at Munster until the summer when he goes to Italy.

Hart is going back to France and Williams isnt likely to get a deal. He hasnt played for Munster for a number of months now. He doesn't feature in their medium to long term plans.

The idea of only needing three scrum halfs comes I believe because that's what Leinster have. Connacht for example have 5 senior scrum halfs on the books this season.

The Lost Sheep

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

awec wrote: »

Are they both mid-contract?

Duncan got an extension last time round until end of this season. and Hart was signed on 2 year deal.
Both contracts up end of the season

awec

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Duncan got an extension last time round until end of this season. and Hart was signed on 2 year deal.
Both contracts up end of the season

Then it'll not matter how in demand they are, Munster can let both go if they wish.

Kirk Van Houten

Guess Who's Back, Back Again? JJ's Back, Tell a Friend

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Keatley has been allowed to leave early because Tyler is now fit again and they deemed they had enough cover available in Carbery JJ Tyler and Bill J. But if London Irish didn't have an injury crisis at 10 he would still be at Munster until the summer when he goes to Italy.

Hart is going back to France and Williams isnt likely to get a deal. He hasnt played for Munster for a number of months now. He doesn't feature in their medium to long term plans.

The idea of only needing three scrum halfs comes I believe because that's what Leinster have. Connacht for example have 5 senior scrum halfs on the books this season.

4 senior and 1 academy

With Conor McKeon injured all season, Kerins not long back from injury. Marmion injured away with Ireland half the season.

In practical terms Connacht have had 2-2.5 scrumhalfs up until now this season

salmocab

I’m surprised anyone cares about this, Munster do not need him but he’s better than what they have and will have next season. If I was Mc Carthy I’d be very annoyed as I’d assume he was told he’d have a run at being second choice next season but that’s just one person put out.
Ireland have enough 9s getting game time with the starter at each province being an international along with Blade and soon to be JGP.
It would be nice to never to need any overseas players but that’s not likely to ever be the case.
This is a nothing argument in my opinion.