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Munster Team Talk Thread VI - Stander Up and Fight

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    #9812
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Here ya go:

    Tomtom364 wrote: »
    Current NIQs



    Botha

    Klyne - August 2019 Qualified

    Cloete

    Marshall - November 2019 Qualified

    Matthewson - No Contract

    Taute - No Contract


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    #9813
    Tomtom364
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭Tomtom364


    Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)
    Zzippy wrote: »
    He'll get a lot more though if Mathewson isn't here. Imagine John Cooney had signed for Connacht, then they signed a medical joker for Marmion and kept him on. Would Cooney have shone as he did, got a move to Ulster and played for Ireland? McCarthy was signed as a backup to Murray, not as a backup to a backup for Murray.



    Yes. And presumably it will not be granted past the end of the season, given the McCarthy move.


    Has this ever been stated?
    Was Cronin not given his new deal before McCarthy was signed?

    I'm not saying this wasn't the case I just think people are making far too much of a leap.

    McCarthy being signed from 3rd choice at Leinster to parachute into "2nd choice", which will have the most game time next season lets be honest, at Munster doesn't really make alot of sense.

    I for one hope Matthewson gets extended till the end of the season, He has been fantastic for Munster since joining and offered an option far far superior to the other scrum halves available. If he is also helping Cronin and the academy lads develop then even better.

    (Also, partly because on a personal level I hate seeing any player out of contract in March, very unlikely for them to pick anything up untill the following season and dosnt help them sell themselves.)

    I'd love for Munster to be able to hold onto him even just till Christmas next year as I think Cronin and McCarthy arnt enough for the first half of the season next year. It could take awhile for either of them to step up to the plate and Id much rather Munster dont lag behind in the League or Europe and end up playing catch up all season.

    Keeping Matthewson as an experienced general for the start of next season and to help to develop Cronin and McCarthy, particularly into the second half of next season when I'd really want one to of them to be taking over at 9 while Murray is at the 6 nations would be an ideal scenario in my opinion.


    And Ill say it outright, I don't care about Leinster having Fardy as a "second row", he should be resigned to get them past the world cup at the very least.
    And Ulster should have kept Pienaar.

    I appreciate the sentiment that the IRFU want to develop players for the national team, but you need people like this to bring in their experience to the clubs to help develop young players around them which in turn benefits the national team.
    And if it helps keep the Irish clubs more competitive and winning silverware, how is that a bad thing?


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    #9814
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Tomtom364 wrote: »
    Has this ever been stated?
    Was Cronin not given his new deal before McCarthy was signed?

    I'm not saying this wasn't the case I just think people are making far too much of a leap.

    McCarthy being signed from 3rd choice at Leinster to parachute into "2nd choice", which will have the most game time next season lets be honest, at Munster doesn't really make alot of sense.

    I for one hope Matthewson gets extended till the end of the season, He has been fantastic for Munster since joining and offered an option far far superior to the other scrum halves available. If he is also helping Cronin and the academy lads develop then even better.

    (Also, partly because on a personal level I hate seeing any player out of contract in March, very unlikely for them to pick anything up untill the following season and dosnt help them sell themselves.)

    I'd love for Munster to be able to hold onto him even just till Christmas next year as I think Cronin and McCarthy arnt enough for the first half of the season next year. It could take awhile for either of them to step up to the plate and Id much rather Munster dont lag behind in the League or Europe and end up playing catch up all season.

    Keeping Matthewson as an experienced general for the start of next season and to help to develop Cronin and McCarthy, particularly into the second half of next season when I'd really want one to of them to be taking over at 9 while Murray is at the 6 nations would be an ideal scenario in my opinion.

    And Ill say it outright, I don't care about Leinster having Fardy as a "second row", he should be resigned to get them past the world cup at the very least.
    And Ulster should have kept Pienaar.

    I appreciate the sentiment that the IRFU want to develop players for the national team, but you need people like this to bring in their experience to the clubs to help develop young players around them which in turn benefits the national team.
    And if it helps keep the Irish clubs more competitive and winning silverware, how is that a bad thing?
    I dont think Mathewson should be signed until end of season. If others are fit.
    Cronin and McCarthy and Stafford and Casey will all learn far more from playing games than by training with Mathewson.
    It isnt simply Cronin and McCarthy until christmas of next season. Its the two academy players as well.
    Its a world cup season. this is the best time to get younger players game time at pro14 with less pressure of other seasons/any time.
    Fardy isnt needed by Leinster and Ulster shouldnt have kept Pienaar. Players improve by playing games not training. Yes having an experienced player to learn from is important but gametime and learning on the pitch is the best way to improve.


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    #9815
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    Not sure where they're living, but he's said that he wants a contract of over a year somewhere so he can move them over rather than the current temporary contract.

    More than fair, really.


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    #9816
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I dont think Mathewson should be signed until end of season. If others are fit.
    Cronin and McCarthy and Stafford and Casey will all learn far more from playing games than by training with Mathewson.
    It isnt simply Cronin and McCarthy until christmas of next season. Its the two academy players as well.
    Its a world cup season. this is the best time to get younger players game time at pro14 with less pressure of other seasons/any time.
    Fardy isnt needed by Leinster and Ulster shouldnt have kept Pienaar. Players improve by playing games not training. Yes having an experienced player to learn from is important but gametime and learning on the pitch is the best way to improve.

    It's not just Pro 14 league games though. Could be looking at potential CC sf and potentially final (assuming Matthewson will be around for qf), Pro14 semi and final. Think if Murray gets injured there's a drop in form to next player. Williams seems to be dropped out of fold altogether.


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    #9817
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Eod100 wrote: »
    It's not just Pro 14 league games though. Could be looking at potential CC sf and potentially final (assuming Matthewson will be around for qf), Pro14 semi and final. Think if Murray gets injured there's a drop in form to next player. Williams seems to be dropped out of fold altogether.
    We have to trust our own players. There will always be a drop from Murray. Mathewson was signed as injury cover for Murray who is now back fit. we should use our own resources and let him go.


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    #9818
    Pepp1989
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Pepp1989


    If munster want to win anything this year I am confident it will only be done if alby is around.

    Far superior to what is there bar Murray and Murray is currently out of form.


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    #9819
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Mr Tickle wrote: »
    How about we release Mathewson. then we decide that Cronin isn't good enough so we need a new Scrum half.
    I hear Mathewson is out of contract.....

    Then develop another scrum half? I don't understand this seemingly unique Munster perspective that if an Irish trained player isn't good enough, you automatically look to import someone better. No other team in Ireland does this except for Connacht but there's a specific reason for that.

    Of course every team has NIQs and that's fine, there's scope for that. But Munster has a ridiculous amount as it is and it's being used to paper over the craps of a system which gives up on its academy players too early.

    If Mathewson is better than any scrumhalf Munster has, then develop better scrumhalves. There are plenty of available NIQs who are better than the incumbents in any number of positions across Irish rugby but it has always been the policy to limit these.


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    #9820
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    We have to trust our own players. There will always be a drop from Murray. Mathewson was signed as injury cover for Murray who is now back fit. we should use our own resources and let him go.

    That's grand in theory but don't think it has happened much all season. Seems odd decision to only do it towards business end of season with knock out games.


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    #9821
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    [quote="troyzer;109465341"

    Of course every team has NIQs and that's fine, there's scope for that. But Munster has a ridiculous amount as it is and it's being used to paper over the craps of a system which gives up on its academy players too early.

    If Mathewson is better than any scrumhalf Munster has, then develop better scrumhalves. There are plenty of available NIQs who are better than the incumbents in any number of positions across Irish rugby but it has always been the policy to limit these.[/quote]

    Ah come on that's an exaggeration. Leinster have JGP, Lowe, Fardy, Tomane. The latter 2 who have been capped with Aus. Not to mention Isa until lately. Don't think Munster are that out of step with other provinces. Operate under same rules too.


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    #9822
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)
    troyzer wrote: »
    Of course every team has NIQs and that's fine, there's scope for that. But Munster has a ridiculous amount as it is and it's being used to paper over the craps of a system which gives up on its academy players too early.

    I think this has been asked before, but which academy players that Munster gave up on do you think they regret releasing? I can't really think of too many.


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    #9823
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Ah come on that's an exaggeration. Leinster have JGP, Lowe, Fardy, Tomane. The latter 2 who have been capped with Aus. Not to mention Isa until lately. Don't think Munster are that out of step with other provinces. Operate under same rules too.

    Ulster only have 1: Coetzee

    Connacht have 3: Fainga'a, Butler, Godwin

    Leinster have 4: JGP, Fardy, Lowe and Tomane

    Munster have 6: Mathewson, Taute, Cloete, Botha, Kleyn and Marshall.

    So they are an outlier here. Not to mention that you can only have 1 scrumhalf on the pitch at a time and 2 in your 23. It's not like outside back or back row where you can have several in the team. Mathewson would be blocking someone.


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    #9824
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)
    troyzer wrote: »
    Ulster only have 1: Coetzee

    Connacht have 3: Fainga'a, Butler, Godwin

    Leinster have 4: JGP, Fardy, Lowe and Tomane

    Munster have 6: Mathewson, Taute, Cloete, Botha, Kleyn and Marshall.

    So they are an outlier here. Not to mention that you can only have 1 scrumhalf on the pitch at a time and 2 in your 23. It's not like outside back or back row where you can have several in the team. Mathewson would be blocking someone.

    You're conflating NIQ's and project players there, tho. Cloete, Kleyn and Marshall were signed when the rule was still 3 years.


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    #9825
    Mr Tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Return of the JJ
    troyzer wrote: »
    Ulster only have 1: Coetzee

    Connacht have 3: Fainga'a, Butler, Godwin

    Leinster have 4: JGP, Fardy, Lowe and Tomane

    Munster have 6: Mathewson, Taute, Cloete, Botha, Kleyn and Marshall.

    So they are an outlier here. Not to mention that you can only have 1 scrumhalf on the pitch at a time and 2 in your 23. It's not like outside back or back row where you can have several in the team. Mathewson would be blocking someone.

    Ok but before christmas next year two of those will be eligible. And as for giving up on academy players I'd like to point out Tadgh Tiberius Beirne and Tom Tiberius Farrell.
    in a position where you can only have two involved in a match day 23 Munster have had a nice string of homegrown talent for a long time.

    Connacht have Horowitz too just FYI.


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    #9826
    Stone Gossard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Stone Gossard


    The reality is that Munster were allowed sign players as projects...with the consent and probably direction from the IRFU. Taute will be gone by the seasons end... Kleyn becomes IQ before the world cup, Marshall afterwards.
    That means Botha is the only NIQ player on our books for next season... Cloete will be a project until he's IQ in 2020... Munster will have no problems keeping Alby next season as long as it's with the blessing of the IRFU


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    #9827
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    troyzer wrote: »
    Ulster only have 1: Coetzee

    Connacht have 3: Fainga'a, Butler, Godwin

    Leinster have 4: JGP, Fardy, Lowe and Tomane

    Munster have 6: Mathewson, Taute, Cloete, Kleyn and Marshall.

    So they are an outlier here. Not to mention that you can only have 1 scrumhalf on the pitch at a time and 2 in your 23. It's not like outside back or back row where you can have several in the team. Mathewson would be blocking someone.

    Not sure about outlier to be fair. As pointed out Cloete, Botha, Kleyn and Marshall all will be IE in time. Taute likely to be released.

    Could take a similar line and question Leinster supposedly having best academy in country and greater population to boot relying on NIQ like Fardy and Tomane?

    Think it's a fairly moot point with change of rules, IRFU are concentrating on bringing in IE players playing abroad like Haley and Addison.


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    #9828
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Botha is a capped Springbok so he's a NIE.


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    #9829
    Pepp1989
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Pepp1989


    troyzer wrote:
    Then develop another scrum half? I don't understand this seemingly unique Munster perspective that if an Irish trained player isn't good enough, you automatically look to import someone better. No other team in Ireland does this except for Connacht but there's a specific reason for that.


    You may want to look up the definition of unique.

    Everyone wants their province to do well and have the best players. Any munster fan not wanting Alby kept on must not have seen them play in a while.

    Up to the IRFU to make this decision in the national interest. Which they will.


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    #9830
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Pepp1989 wrote: »
    You may want to look up the definition of unique.

    Everyone wants their province to do well and have the best players. Any munster fan not wanting Alby kept on must not have seen them play in a while.

    Up to the IRFU to make this decision in the national interest. Which they will.
    Ive been at most Munster games in Limerick this season and dont want Alby kept on.
    Id rather we use our other 9s and keep an NIQ spot for a better time in another position.


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    #9831
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Botha is a capped Springbok so he's a NIE.

    You're right. Forgot he was capped by senior side.


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    #9832
    Pepp1989
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Pepp1989


    Agree to disagree then. Our other 9's excluding Murray don't come near him. And he offers a different style to Murray. We suffer a very noticeable drop down to the other 9's.

    Murray is currently showing the effect a 9 out of form can have on a whole team. It's a vital position.


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    #9833
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)
    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Ive been at most Munster games in Limerick this season and dont want Alby kept on.
    Id rather we use our other 9s and keep an NIQ spot for a better time in another position.

    You're in a very small minority.


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    #9834
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Ive been at most Munster games in Limerick this season and dont want Alby kept on.
    Id rather we use our other 9s and keep an NIQ spot for a better time in another position.

    What individual supporters might want regarding team recruitment or retention isn't of much importance or relevance let's be honest.


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    #9835
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Pepp1989 wrote: »
    Agree to disagree then. Our other 9's excluding Murray don't come near him. And he offers a different style to Murray. We suffer a very noticeable drop down to the other 9's.

    Murray is currently showing the effect a 9 out of form can have on a whole team. It's a vital position.
    It is important but when do Munster trust all the other scrum halves they have on their books then?
    There will always be a very noticeable drop down from a world class 9 to the rest in the squad. Murray makes virtually any team in the world.
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    You're in a very small minority.
    maybe i am but we should use our NIQs in other positions and not as a back up.
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    What individual supporters might want regarding team recruitment or retention isn't of much importance or relevance let's be honest.
    well close the forum then. sure whats the point .....


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    #9836
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    Stone Gossard wrote: »
    The reality is that Munster were allowed sign players as projects...with the consent and probably direction from the IRFU. Taute will be gone by the seasons end... Kleyn becomes IQ before the world cup, Marshall afterwards.
    That means Botha is the only NIQ player on our books for next season... Cloete will be a project until he's IQ in 2020... Munster will have no problems keeping Alby next season as long as it's with the blessing of the IRFU

    AFAIK there is no longer a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, they are looked at on a case by case basis by IRFU before approval is given. NIQ spots are supposed to add quality to a squad where there is a lack in a certain position, not to fulfil a backup role, and certainly not to fill a backup role which takes gametime away from the important role of developing young IQ players. Even if there was a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, it should be seen as a limit, not a target.

    Murray was injured, Mathewson was signed as emergency cover. Murray is fit, Mathewson should be gone. Cronin and McCarthy (next season) need as much gametime as possible to develop. Keep Duncan Williams on if ye need another experienced 9 in the squad, but there is no way IRFU should sanction an extension for Mathewson past this season.


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    #9837
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM
    The best case scenario might be Mathewson joining the coaching staff.


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    #9838
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Zzippy wrote: »
    AFAIK there is no longer a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, they are looked at on a case by case basis by IRFU before approval is given. NIQ spots are supposed to add quality to a squad where there is a lack in a certain position, not to fulfil a backup role, and certainly not to fill a backup role which takes gametime away from the important role of developing young IQ players. Even if there was a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, it should be seen as a limit, not a target.

    Murray was injured, Mathewson was signed as emergency cover. Murray is fit, Mathewson should be gone. Cronin and McCarthy (next season) need as much gametime as possible to develop. Keep Duncan Williams on if ye need another experienced 9 in the squad, but there is no way IRFU should sanction an extension for Mathewson past this season.

    Seeing as Williams was playing AIL when Munster were playing Kings, I'd be fairly surprised if he was kept on.


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    #9839
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Are Mathewson's family still in the south of France or back in NZ?
    Seen a few posts where he says he misses them, can't be easy on him or them.

    Thought I read a while back that they were in Australia.

    https://punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/mathewson-alby-munster-tough-family/


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    #9840
    Stone Gossard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭Stone Gossard


    Zzippy wrote: »
    AFAIK there is no longer a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, they are looked at on a case by case basis by IRFU before approval is given. NIQ spots are supposed to add quality to a squad where there is a lack in a certain position, not to fulfil a backup role, and certainly not to fill a backup role which takes gametime away from the important role of developing young IQ players. Even if there was a set no. of NIQ spots allowed, it should be seen as a limit, not a target.

    Murray was injured, Mathewson was signed as emergency cover. Murray is fit, Mathewson should be gone. Cronin and McCarthy (next season) need as much gametime as possible to develop. Keep Duncan Williams on if ye need another experienced 9 in the squad, but there is no way IRFU should sanction an extension for Mathewson past this season.

    Williams will be released... Cronin and McCarthy may be back up to both Murray and Alby...they would both get plenty of gametime next season if he was kept on...but who knows, it's all supposition at the moment


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    #9841
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,843 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Guess Who's Back, Back Again? JJ's Back, Tell a Friend
    Mathewson is the perfect complement to Murray, he seems to bring a lot of pace to the game which is something Munster can build on.

    Do Munster need to need two world class scrum halves with different styles. I would say yes, regardless of the whataboutery from the usual boys in blue.

    I hope we pony up the money and keep him, I wouldn't even say he's a step down from Murray, just a different style.


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