2018 Leaf

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

my current 32A EVSE is good to 60 Kwh within night rates . I see no reason why Im forced ( by Nissan ) to either install 3P ( and huge costs , and actually very difficult where I am ) or to degrade my single phase charging to 16A

You're not. There is the potential of a 22kW 3x32A option... which will charge just fine on single phase at 32A. You'll probably just have to pay the extra €1k or so.... same deal as the 6.6kW.... or.... they might make that standard. Either way you are still in a better position than the current leaf 6.6's 30A. Like I said it's a win-win.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

You're not. There is the potential of a 22kW 3x32A option... which will charge just fine on single phase at 32A. You'll probably just have to pay the extra €1k or so.... same deal as the 6.6kW.... or.... they might make that standard. Either way you are still in a better position than the current leaf 6.6's 30A. Like I said it's a win-win.

Ive not seen any speculation that the 2018 leaf will have 22KW charging ability

I have seen speculation that one option is 3P 11Kw but most speculation is that the options will be similar to the existing Leaf

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

my current 32A EVSE is good to 60 Kwh within night rates . I see no reason why Im forced ( by Nissan ) to either install 3P ( and huge costs , and actually very difficult where I am ) or to degrade my single phase charging to 16A

Exactly. Having to upgrade your supply or else your charging will be at half speed? Madness in any market that doesn't have 3 phase supply as standard (or cheap upgrade) to most homes!

And having more than 3.3kW charging as another €1000 option I guess depends on the pricing of the car. If included in the €25k and €30k for 40kWh and 60kWh respectively, then it's fine

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Ive not seen any speculation that the 2018 leaf will have 22KW charging ability

Renault designed a new 11kW and 22kW on-board charger for EVs. They are selling the 22kW units to Daimler for the new Smart EVs starting at the end of the year (currently they do not have three-phase charging).
Renault and Nissan both placed orders with suppliers for parts far exceeding the numbers required to fulfil the Daimler order... deliveries starting Q3.
So it could be for the Leaf...

I was also told by someone at Nissan that they would be taking advantage of the move to Type 2 offering three-phase support, but that it was up to the commercial side what form that would take.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. Having to upgrade your supply or else your charging will be at half speed? Madness in any market that doesn't have 3 phase supply as standard (or cheap upgrade) to most homes!

And having more than 3.3kW charging as another €1000 option I guess depends on the pricing of the car. If included in the €25k and €30k for 40kWh and 60kWh respectively, then it's fine

indeed, I have no problem if the higher single phase option is an optional extra, once its reasonable . My concern was the suggestion that the leaf would be 11Kw 3P and hence single phase using a single channel would be 11/3 kW

That would be madness

on the other hands a 22kW 3P with 7kw single phase as a optional extra would be a welcome addition

The future is DC, no denying that, they're rolling out 20 Kw CCS across Germany as well as higher powered units. I see no reason we can't do the same.

There's no denying the advantage of higher powered AC, ask any Zoe owner or even us 6.6 Kw Leaf owners. Even 6.6 Kw has saved me a lot of waiting around at fast chargers. Sure, on a longer motorway run DC is king but for everyone else not needing the shortest possible charge times, AC is a very good advantage to have at higher rates.

I hope the ESB do install 20 Kw DC points or even higher powered ones and put them in stupid places like shopping centres where people can leech all they want.

Anyway, our network is now over a year behind and it's likely that a private company will have to take over or set up their own network, I doubt the ESB will start installing more chargers until 2018 at the earliest and by then we'll be 2 years behind.

I hope what I heard is true that the German Car companies will be installing 350 Kw DC points this year in Ireland and a U.S company could be installing charge points in the coming year also, fingers crossed.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The future is DC, no denying that, they're rolling out 20 Kw CCS across Germany as well as higher powered units. I see no reason we can't do the same.

There's no denying the advantage of higher powered AC, ask any Zoe owner or even us 6.6 Kw Leaf owners. Even 6.6 Kw has saved me a lot of waiting around at fast chargers. Sure, on a longer motorway run DC is king but for everyone else not needing the shortest possible charge times, AC is a very good advantage to have at higher rates.

I hope the ESB do install 20 Kw DC points or even higher powered ones and put them in stupid places like shopping centres where people can leech all they want.

Anyway, our network is now over a year behind and it's likely that a private company will have to take over or set up their own network, I doubt the ESB will start installing more chargers until 2018 at the earliest and by then we'll be 2 years behind.

I hope what I heard is true that the German Car companies will be installing 350 Kw DC points this year in Ireland and a U.S company could be installing charge points in the coming year also, fingers crossed.

Mad_lad, destination style charging even to 22KW really just doesnt scale. if you talk to retail operations, while they are happy to participate in " pilot " spaces. they dont see the that they have any part to play if EV were say 50% of total cars

hence given the cost of urban land, how can anyone suggest that SCP style charging can scale to more then a handful of chargers in certain locations. Urban land is far too expensive to dedicate it to SCP parks, even leaving aside the fact that urban centres like DCC, are simply not going to promote centre urban parking spaces for private cars , EV charging or not, as to roadside SCPs, thats a dead end completely

As I said Boat_Mad, not everyone needs to charge in the shortest possible times. So we need chargers to cater for all circumstances and they obviously think differently than you in Germany if they are installing 20 odd Kw CCS points.

If someone is plugged in shopping for 1 hr and gets the guts of 20 Kwh worth of juice this is around 110 Kms of range. Which is better than someone plugged into a higher powered unit and preventing someone who needs a much faster charge while on a long trip from charging.

Yeah, we need many many chargers and faster and faster chargers, absolutely, I agree, but not everyone needs this, think of all the apartment owners, such as my brother who is not allowed install his charge point in his own Apartment space, he does not need a 100Kw + charger for a 1 Km round trip daily and he could plug in once a week when he goes shopping and that will be all he needs and still have enough for some pottering around and he won't have to waste time sitting at a fast charger which he already said he wouldn't be prepared to do weekly for his normal mileage but would do on a long trip. He said he would rather plug in while he shops , get in the car and drive off.

When I go on a longer trip and don't have to charge as fast as possible, for instance when I go to Blanch shopping centre, about 180 Kms round trip. I plug in and 2-2.5 hrs later have enough to get home, feck that waiting at the fast charger. I get in and drive home.

As I said, we need chargers to suit everyones requirements.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said Boat_Mad, not everyone needs to charge in the shortest possible times. So we need chargers to cater for all circumstances and they obviously think differently than you in Germany if they are installing 20 odd Kw CCS points.

If someone is plugged in shopping for 1 hr and gets the guts of 20 Kwh worth of juice this is around 110 Kms of range. Which is better than someone plugged into a higher powered unit and preventing someone who needs a much faster charge while on a long trip from charging.

Yeah, we need many many chargers and faster and faster chargers, absolutely, I agree, but not everyone needs this, think of all the apartment owners, such as my brother who is not allowed install his charge point in his own Apartment space, he does not need a 100Kw + charger for a 1 Km round trip daily and he could plug in once a week when he goes shopping and that will be all he needs and still have enough for some pottering around and he won't have to waste time sitting at a fast charger which he already said he wouldn't be prepared to do weekly for his normal mileage but would do on a long trip. He said he would rather plug in while he shops , get in the car and drive off.

When I go on a longer trip and don't have to charge as fast as possible, for instance when I go to Blanch shopping centre, about 180 Kms round trip. I plug in and 2-2.5 hrs later have enough to get home, feck that waiting at the fast charger. I get in and drive home.

As I said, we need chargers to suit everyones requirements.

my contention is not that SCP style charging is " useful ". Its that its entirely impractical. Today with tiny numbers of EVs , a few SCPS scattered around are fine and give the " illusion " that this is a reasonable charging process.


But the fact is , given EVS spend considerable time at SCPs ( i.e. more then FCP time ) , the whole solution simply doesnt scale . once you have many EVs all you are going to find is every SCP is busy !

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

But the fact is , given EVS spend considerable time at SCPs ( i.e. more then FCP time ) , the whole solution simply doesnt scale . once you have many EVs all you are going to find is every SCP is busy !

Perhaps, then - there doesn't have to be any wastage in that respect. It may be that SCP's have to be relocated to places where their usage is more appropriately utilised. In tandem with that, more investment to go into FCP network - with expansion of same...

Going forward there will be a mixture of older 50 kW FCPs and latest 150...350 kW FFCPs (effin' fast charge point). If the former still work they could be used as a medium speed charging for example if you wanted to stop for an hour to have a lunch during your across Europe stint or for older cars. Their pricing could be made more affordable than the latest units.

This is thinking that the chargers will be located at the M-way Services where there are also other services than just lecky. I'm agreeing with Boat that "hours of charging" charging points will probably disappear apart from domestic installations as otherwise every single car parking space would need one for enough to be available. The only exception are actual parking garages that locals can use to charge their cars overnight and pay for it if they don't have a dedicated charger. Thinking of a shopping centre or similar where most of the cars don't actually need a charge once the typical range is 300+ km how do you make the allocation to work at all so that only the cars that really need to charge will have a free charger available that is not used by somebody not actually charging.

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

Perhaps, then - there doesn't have to be any wastage in that respect. It may be that SCP's have to be relocated to places where their usage is more appropriately utilised. In tandem with that, more investment to go into FCP network - with expansion of same...

Not only that but the more people use the SCP network the more available the FCP network becomes for people who actually need it.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

Perhaps, then - there doesn't have to be any wastage in that respect. It may be that SCP's have to be relocated to places where their usage is more appropriately utilised. In tandem with that, more investment to go into FCP network - with expansion of same...

once you have a charging system where people , stay from lomg periods of time (ie > 30 mins) , you rapidly have a resource that simply spends a long time tied up with a single user. This is further compounded by the " destination " charging concept, ie you bugger off for a considerable period of time at the destination while the car is charging ( and potentially finished charging ) and taking up a " serialised , exclusive " resource

It simply cant scale , and it has no future in a future where significant amount of EVs are expected. The key to resource utilisation is speed of turnaround

Imagine 20-30 SCP points in a city with 5000 EVs , ridiculous

Private destination charging has a role , mainly as an incentive to get EVs to visit and stay , Public SCP has no future

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

Private destination charging has a role , mainly as an incentive to get EVs to visit and stay , Public SCP has no future

Agree with that

It's a long way away I would imagine, but it will only be huge sites like Junction 14, Junction 7, M1 stations etc spread around the country that will have charging facilities, all super fast chargers 0-100% in 3 - 4 mins, 50 or more chargers on the go, very little down time.

Street chargers,one off chargers have no place in the commercial world

Efficiencies of EV's will be well under 10kw per 100km, not the 15-20 we have now in normal driving @ 120kmh

4 mins on 500kwh charges will be common, it's all 99% of cars will need

It will all become about efficiency not battery size in the future.

I can't wait 😀

BoatMad

Efficiencies of EV's will be well under 10kw per 100km, not the 15-20 we have now in normal driving @ 120kmh

actyally as battery packs grow ( and thats inevitable ) , efficiency will be less of a consideration, if you have stacks of range , it matters little whether you are getting 15kWh or 14kWh in reality ( especially if you are paying to recharge by the minute !!!!)

Also as EVs take over less efficient forms of cars, SUVs, cross-overs, light trucks, we are likely to see an increased range of efficiencies .


Physics also sets lower barriers, so Cds under 0.24 are very hard to achieve , combined with frontal areas , and rolling resistance , electric motors efficiency has largely plateaued

unkel

thierry14 wrote: »

Efficiencies of EV's will be well under 10kw per 100km

That won't happen. The most efficient EVs are already with us or will be soon. Efficiency is almost as good as it gets, cars won't get any lighter with more safety equipment added over time and you can't do much better than the coefficient of drag of a Tesla Model S or Ioniq (both 0.24 and available today), or the Tesla Model 3 (0.21 and available soon)

Agree with the rest of your post

Water John

The battery is the tech that will change. Make take a few years, for the research to become working models.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

The battery is the tech that will change. Make take a few years, for the research to become working models.

agreed , the rest of the car is very boring technically

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

actyally as battery packs grow ( and thats inevitable ) , efficiency will be less of a consideration, if you have stacks of range , it matters little whether you are getting 15kWh or 14kWh in reality ( especially if you are paying to recharge by the minute !!!!)

Agreed, the efficiency difference between a Zoe and a Tesla Model X P100D is about 30%, which is less than the fuel consumption difference between their ICE equivalents.

Once the battery capacity satisfies the needs of the owner I doubt anyone is going to care much about efficiency, what does the Model X owner of the future care if a full battery is another euro or not?

At the moment though, it's still cheaper to spend the extra money on CFD and engineering to get the aero optimised than buy the extra battery capacity.

BoatMad

At the moment though, it's still cheaper to spend the extra money on CFD and engineering to get the aero optimised than buy the extra battery capacity.

agreed, mainly because we are in a battery shortage period , which is screwing with EV pricing ( possibly with the exception of Tesla of course )

I don't believe there's no future for slower charging, in fact it could be a case where 20-50 Kw DC chargers could be considered slow in the next 5-10 years.

As battery capacity grows there'll be much less individual use of the network however due to increased numbers demand will grow and I think we'll need many of both fast and slow charge points , though what will be considered slow in 5-10 years we might call fast today.

SCP's can be used by those who arrive into town and can't be bothered whether the car is charged in 3 mins or 2 hrs.

Water John

Battery weight and size to energy ratio will be the limit to battery size.
Unless that changes, don't see cars being bigger than 40/50 Kw in the near to middle future.

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

actyally as battery packs grow ( and thats inevitable ) , efficiency will be less of a consideration, if you have stacks of range , it matters little whether you are getting 15kWh or 14kWh in reality ( especially if you are paying to recharge by the minute !!!!)

Also as EVs take over less efficient forms of cars, SUVs, cross-overs, light trucks, we are likely to see an increased range of efficiencies .


Physics also sets lower barriers, so Cds under 0.24 are very hard to achieve , combined with frontal areas , and rolling resistance , electric motors efficiency has largely plateaued

It will be less of a consideration of course when battery packs grows larger, but we pay per unit of electricity and the more inefficient the EV's the more we pay and consumers are not going be happy with that

They will be more efficient, they'll have to be, market will dictate it

It will be a race to the bottom as always imo

40-50 Kwh isn't that bad at all if you can charge in 10 mins or less.

The speed the Ioniq charges compared to the 24 Kwh Leaf I thought was a very big deal. 33-90% in 25 mins and it's a larger battery, about 7 extra usable Kwh. If that was 5-10 mins then I think it would be amazing and means much less Kwh needed, however , having less capacity means more dependence on the network.

thierry14

cros13 wrote: »

Agreed, the efficiency difference between a Zoe and a Tesla Model X P100D is about 30%, which is less than the fuel consumption difference between their ICE equivalents.

Once the battery capacity satisfies the needs of the owner I doubt anyone is going to care much about efficiency, what does the Model X owner of the future care if a full battery is another euro or not?

At the moment though, it's still cheaper to spend the extra money on CFD and engineering to get the aero optimised than buy the extra battery capacity.

That is crazy

Only 30% between a 700bhp+ and a little Zoe, shocked at that

Comparable ICE is probably 300%

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

That is crazy

Only 30% between a 700bhp+ and a little Zoe, shocked at that

Comparable ICE is probably 300%

Yup... just to use the Ioniq for comparison:

Dual motor Model S averages 19-21kWh/100km and the Ioniq 14-16kWh/100km.
The extra motor increases the efficiency of the Model S vs it's RWD variants. Both by more efficient regen and by more efficiently applying power to road (constant speed motorway driving in the Model S P100D for example biases power toward the better gear ratio for the speed front motor unless traction issues are detected).

ethernet

Sky News is reporting that the Nissan factory in Sunderland (and Renault in France) has also been hit by the global cyber attacker that started yesterday. Details are sketchy now but one has the wonder that if it will have any effect on production or the legimatacy of the firmware installed on key components.

goz83

ethernet wrote: »

Sky News is reporting that the Nissan factory in Sunderland (and Renault in France) has also been hit by the global cyber attacker that started yesterday. Details are sketchy now but one has the wonder that if it will have any effect on production or the legimatacy of the firmware installed on key components.

The wide spread damage caused by these scrotes is unreal. They should be thrown into jail for the rest of their lives when caught.

who_ru

Wonder is there any info on what pricing for the new Leaf will be like. Are we also expecting a new Ioniq in 2018?

cros13

who_ru wrote: »

Wonder is there any info on what pricing for the new Leaf will be like.

Pretty much similar to the current pricing. Any 60kWh option coming later in 2018 would be priced higher than the current Leaf though.

who_ru wrote: »

Are we also expecting a new Ioniq in 2018?

Just a 30-40% higher capacity battery and some minor interior changes.