Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

Calina

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Not saying that all. I'm saying promotion prospects are a far better bet for securing a decent standard of living than relying on the pitiful pension for new entrants.

I don't know that I would agree, particularly in the context of attempting to afford to live in Dublin where the vast majority of civil service jobs are. If you want to pay clerical officers feck all, then the cost of living somewhere within an hour of work needs to be reasonable. If you are working in Dublin, it really is not. I spoke with AOs and DFAT 3rd secretaries who had no idea how they were going to fund living in Dublin given their salary versus rent.

Put simply, there are no guarantees with promotion and it takes far too long. I've left the Irish public service, and I have emigrated. But we would not be having this discussion if Dublin was not a shockingly expensive place to live with a comparatively poor quality of life for people on lower incomes.

Calina

pilly wrote: »

Try having no sick leave at all and it might make your own view more rosy.

I have to say this smacks of making certain assumptions about people working in the public sector. A lot of the people I worked with in the civil service - particularly the younger ones - had experience of life outside the civil service. Arguably some of them may be attracted by certain flexibilities that come with the CS and are willing to make certain other sacrifices. I came from working outside Ireland, and working in the private sector in Ireland. My personal view is that there are cultural issues with work in Ireland in general.

One of the key issues I see with Ireland is that we need, perhaps, to attract very bright people to the civil service to reach the top. But attitudes like this - assumptions that they don't live in the real world, or don't know what it's like for life to be hard - make enough people stop and think, you know, I can't be bothered being a political football or a public punching bag. IMO, civil service is not valued that much in Ireland.

However - and this is a big however - something which would benefit the entire working population of Dublin and not just the civil service - is doing something about the crazy cost of accommodation and the utterly appalling public transport.

Dublin is an unpleasant city to try and live/work in in terms of commuting and putting a roof over your head. I grew to hate it in the end. We wouldn't care too much about COs earning 21K if they could afford reasonable rent. But there's too much of this view that you have to earn the right to not be poverty stricken in Dublin.

I personally wouldn't do the work of a CO. But the way things are the only COs that can afford to live in Dublin need to have about 10 years experience. There's something seriously wrong with that.

jp101

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

In my 25 years in private sector roles, I got salary increases each year, way beyond the extend of a public sector salary scale.

That is quite an achievement, well done. My point is that the nature of the public sector pay scales is that the increment structure just means you have to turn up to get the next pay increase. The excellent, the average and the plain useless get the same pay increase.

uck51js9zml2yt

jp101 wrote: »

That is quite an achievement, well done. My point is that the nature of the public sector pay scales is that the increment structure just means you have to turn up to get the next pay increase. The excellent, the average and the plain useless get the same pay increase.

Annual reviews are now done and increments can be withheld.

AndrewJRenko

jp101 wrote: »

That is quite an achievement, well done. My point is that the nature of the public sector pay scales is that the increment structure just means you have to turn up to get the next pay increase. The excellent, the average and the plain useless get the same pay increase.

Not quite - Increments have been dependant on satisfactory performance reviews for some time now. And while the PMDS system is far from perfect, it's not really much better or much worse than similar systems across the private sector.

Rodin

boobycharlton wrote: »

Is there any way for a new CO to opt out of the pension scheme? I've just been hired and would be very interested if so.

No there isn't.

Rodin

vector wrote: »

The starting pay of a clerical officer in the public service (i.e. govt depts) is only 21k

This is managable, sure, if you live with your parents, or in the countryside (cheaper rent) but...

Question:
How could anyone in Dublin actually exist on this salary? Does PublicJobs.ie have difficulty filling Clerical officer positions in Dublin.
IS everyone at this grade actually also working at nighttime in another job to make ends meet?

Some googling suggests that in the UK there is a "London allowance" but not so here in Ireland?

What experience, qualification and educational achievement are required for that post?

pilly

Calina wrote:

I have to say this smacks of making certain assumptions about people working in the public sector. A lot of the people I worked with in the civil service - particularly the younger ones - had experience of life outside the civil service. Arguably some of them may be attracted by certain flexibilities that come with the CS and are willing to make certain other sacrifices. I came from working outside Ireland, and working in the private sector in Ireland. My personal view is that there are cultural issues with work in Ireland in general.

I agree with some of your views but I'm not making assumptions. I actually have friends in civil service who take sick leave like holidays. It may not apply to all civil servants but it does apply to a large amount of them as figures on sick leave persistently show.

The_Conductor

pilly wrote: »

I agree with some of your views but I'm not making assumptions. I actually have friends in civil service who take sick leave like holidays. It may not apply to all civil servants but it does apply to a large amount of them as figures on sick leave persistently show.

Which is why it was changed so that you are paid on the basis of a 7 day week- and if you are absent (legitimately or otherwise) on a Monday or a Friday- as you were last present in the office 3 days ago- totally irrespective of whether you have ever worked on a Saturday or a Sunday in your life, it is counted as 3 days sick leave- which requires an official signing off by a GP.........

In practice it means even people who are quite ill- will drag themselves into work on a Monday morning- potentially spreading whatever it is they have- as they will in all probability be sent home by their managers after a few hours anyway- but as they were in- they don't get hit with the 3 days sick leave rule.

If you have a long term illness which is subject to flare-ups- or are undergoing treatment which impairs your immune system- and shouldn't be around seriously ill people unneccessarily- this becomes a nightmare- you have both your own sickleave to worry about- and you also worry about the guy who was telling everyone yesterday that the winter vomitting bug is in his house- and has just gotten sick in a bin in the bathroom..........

People were taking the piss out of sick leave- certainly- however, the boot is firmly on the other foot- and you have people reporting for duty esp. on Monday and Fridays- as they are terrified of getting 3 days sick leave on their records..........

El Tarangu

Do the various PS departments have trouble filling CO positions at €21K?

If not, it would suggest that the pay is about right.

AndrewJRenko

pilly wrote: »

I actually have friends in civil service who take sick leave like holidays.

Do you ever have to submit a cert from a doctor on the 2nd day of your holidays?

Do you ever find that you've lost all holidays after several incidents of taking holidays?

pilly

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you ever have to submit a cert from a doctor on the 2nd day of your holidays?

Do you ever find that you've lost all holidays after several incidents of taking holidays?

No because I don't take sick leave.

granturismo

jp101 wrote: »

That is quite an achievement, well done. My point is that the nature of the public sector pay scales is that the increment structure just means you have to turn up to get the next pay increase. The excellent, the average and the plain useless get the same pay increase.

You do realise that those pay increments stop on reaching the top of the salary scale.

The plain and average are less likely to progress to the higher promotional grade to get onto the next salary scale.

The_Conductor

El Tarangu wrote: »

Do the various PS departments have trouble filling CO positions at €21K?

If not, it would suggest that the pay is about right.

There are a not insignificant number of people taking posts- turning up for a few days- and then just not turning up any longer- without any explanation being given. Its pretty endemic at the CO grade- less an issue- but still happening with EOs and AOs.

AndrewJRenko

pilly wrote: »

No because I don't take sick leave.

Do you ever take holidays?

LouD2016

pilly wrote: »

I agree with some of your views but I'm not making assumptions. I actually have friends in civil service who take sick leave like holidays. It may not apply to all civil servants but it does apply to a large amount of them as figures on sick leave persistently show.

You can only take 7 days uncertified sick leave over a period of 2 years before your pay & increment date is affected...so its not really that easy to use them as ''holidays''....

pilly

LouD2016 wrote: »

You can only take 7 days uncertified sick leave over a period of 2 years before your pay & increment date is affected...so its not really that easy to use them as ''holidays''....

Who said anything about uncertified sick leave. I've an aunt in the civil service who goes to the doctors gets a sick note for 2 weeks and jets off to the sun.

And that's not the only person I know who does similar.

granturismo

pilly wrote: »

Who said anything about uncertified sick leave. I've an aunt in the civil service who goes to the doctors gets a sick note for 2 weeks and jets off to the sun.

And that's not the only person I know who does similar.

Thats a GP issue not a public sector failing. Any employer presented with a sick cert has to honour it.

pilly

granturismo wrote:

Thats a GP issue not a public sector failing. Any employer presented with a sick cert has to honour it.

That wasn't my point. It is a public sector failing because staff are paid for too much sick leave. My initial point was in reply to a poster complaining that they hadn't got enough paid sick leave. In the private sector the majority of companies pay zero.

jp101

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not quite - Increments have been dependant on satisfactory performance reviews for some time now. And while the PMDS system is far from perfect, it's not really much better or much worse than similar systems across the private sector.

Out of curiosity how many increments are not given. I have limited experience but have never seen any. Are there any stats on this?

El Tarangu

The_Conductor wrote: »

There are a not insignificant number of people taking posts- turning up for a few days- and then just not turning up any longer- without any explanation being given. Its pretty endemic at the CO grade- less an issue- but still happening with EOs and AOs.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily a clear indicator that COs are underpaid; I imagine that many organisations that recruit several hundred people in one go might see a few walk-outs in the first few days.

Lux23

When I started out as an EO, I was coming out with just over €1600 a month so I don't understand how any CO could pay rent and bills in Dublin. Its a pathetic wage.

pilly

Lux23 wrote: »

When I started out as an EO, I was coming out with just over €1600 a month so I don't understand how any CO could pay rent and bills in Dublin. Its a pathetic wage.

Share a house, 400-500 per month, it's simple, like the rest of people on minimum wage.

Lux23

pilly wrote: »

Share a house, 400-500 per month, it's simple, like the rest of people on minimum wage.

I share with my partner and we pay about 400 each a month so it is not that bad. Lots of my friends are paying an average of 700 a month to live in fairly average rooms.

But let me do the maths for you. My wage was 1600 and I was 32 so I had legacy debts that had increased when I was unemployed.

Rent - 400 -500 (pay it by the week so some months it works out more)
Loan - 200
Electricity - 40
TV/Broadband - 40
Mobile - 30
Health insurance - 35 (cheapest one I could get)
Travel - 120
Groceries/lunch/toiletries - 200
Bins - 20
Clothes - 20/30 (Rarely buy any clothes)

So that would leave me with about a 100 a week for anything else like going out, taxis, savings, birthdays etc.

I wasn't exactly living the life of reilly on that wage and I was lucky my rent was so low.

pilly

Lux23 wrote: »

I share with my partner and we pay about 400 each a month so it is not that bad. Lots of my friends are paying an average of 700 a month to live in fairly average rooms.

But let me do the maths for you. My wage was 1600 and I was 32 so I had legacy debts that had increased when I was unemployed.

Rent - 400 -500 (pay it by the week so some months it works out more)
Loan - 200
Electricity - 40
TV/Broadband - 40
Mobile - 30
Health insurance - 35 (cheapest one I could get)
Travel - 120
Groceries/lunch/toiletries - 200
Bins - 20
Clothes - 20/30 (Rarely buy any clothes)

So that would leave me with about a 100 a week for anything else like going out, taxis, savings, birthdays etc.

I wasn't exactly living the life of reilly on that wage and I was lucky my rent was so low.

I can do maths, thank you very much and I've lived on social welfare so I know what it's like to live on a low income.

I never said it was enjoyable to live on that money, all I said was it was possible.

€100 a week extra is plenty of money by the way.

Arcade_Tryer

pilly wrote: »

I can do maths, thank you very much and I've lived on social welfare so I know what it's like to live on a low income.

I never said it was enjoyable to live on that money, all I said was it was possible.

€100 a week extra is plenty of money by the way.

So you want workers to live unenjoyable lives? What exactly is your problem with people defending low pay? The Clerical Officer role, while not requiring third level education, is still a skilled position. The application process is also more stringent than many private sector and graduate level jobs. But obviously because it's the public sector, workers should be punished, right?

Lux23

pilly wrote: »

I can do maths, thank you very much and I've lived on social welfare so I know what it's like to live on a low income.

I never said it was enjoyable to live on that money, all I said was it was possible.

€100 a week extra is plenty of money by the way.

It really isn't. I am now nearly 35, have no savings and a bank wouldn't lend to me anyway. If I was to get pregnant I probably couldn't continue with the pregnancy. My skill set is relatively niche so there aren't lots of jobs out there either. There are some perks to the Public Sector but where I am we are expected to work overtime - I worked 13 extra hours over the last two weeks and yes I will get about 11 hours of that as flexitime but to be honest what good is time off if you have no money to spend?

fg1406

ive worked as a CO in Dublin but left to go back down the country as I couldn't survive on the wage. Also many COs like I was, are graduates. My dept hired 3 COs over the past 2 years and all 3 had a minimum level 8 degree, with 1 also having a masters. Also promotion opportunities are limited and have been for 10 years due to recruitment ban. This also means that the few promotions that are advertised are heavily over subscribed.

AndrewJRenko

pilly wrote: »

That wasn't my point. It is a public sector failing because staff are paid for too much sick leave. My initial point was in reply to a poster complaining that they hadn't got enough paid sick leave. In the private sector the majority of companies pay zero.

Most decent employers pay decent sick leave. It sounds like you've spent too much time hanging round crap employers.

THis is YOUR failing. You know specific details of this kind of fraud and you haven't done anything about it? You should be reporting this to the Secretary General of the relevant Department immediately (if it is actually happening).

pilly

pilly wrote: »

That wasn't my point. It is a public sector failing because staff are paid for too much sick leave. My initial point was in reply to a poster complaining that they hadn't got enough paid sick leave. In the private sector the majority of companies pay zero.

I've worked in the private sector all my life. Nearly 25 years, at companies ranging from household names to small start-ups. I've never once been deducted pay for time off sick and I've never once been asked for a doctor's note.

The standard response to any medical issue, including an issue with a child, is "take as much time as you need". That's what good employers do and it's why good employees work for them.

I accept my experience might not be typical but I doubt the majority of private companies don't pay employees on sick leave, and certainly not if they have been signed off by a doctor.