BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

XPS_Zero

magentis wrote: »

Speak for yourself there.My experience of bus eireann drivers has been nothing but positive.I support them 100% in what they are doing.A state sponsored race to the bottom is whats going on here.Just like in numerous other state/semi state companies.

This government has no problem wasting massive amounts of money on white elephant water meters,creating jobs for the boys,and td's lining their own pockets.But are prepared to let vital services decay.

But IM NOT speaking for myself IM QUOTING THEM on their own approach.

I've heard a dozen drivers on radio programmes being this up. Wasn't the same guy each time as they sounded nothing alike. Union spokespeople won't shut up about it either. Trying to throw people sick who are on 3 times or more less than you a week under the bus to save your overtime is pretty low
In fact they've been so good at this propaganda notion that it's all FTs fault they had Sean O Routke incredulous when Varadkar said a flat out "no" to means testing it to stop "people on 200 grand a year" using them, before he pointed out what ought to be obvious that only 4% of the country make over 100k a year and the red tape to means test them would cost more than it saved

The idea reminds me of the 13 pages out of 60 in the TrunpCare bill focused on stopping lottery winners apply for Medicare talk about focusing on a non issue

I can count on one hand number of positive experiences with HSE and DSP admin staff, they're all part of the same issue. Entitlement without any service ethos or gratitude or sense of how well they've got it in return

devnull wrote: »

The reason that the Bus Eireann Commercial arm services little places rather than being non stop is because of poor management not because of the fact they are forced to, this is yet another false narrative being pushed around by the unions.

Commercial Intercity routes between the main cities and Towns is regulated by the NTA who have a duty in law to operate on behalf of the public under the Transport Regulation Act. Their brief requires them to do these without favour to any operator, including Bus Eireann Expressway or any other commercial operator without the fear of what will happen if they don't give a party what they want.

For intercity routes there are two types of licenses
* Interurban - Intercity rotues that stop at many towns en-route
* Interurban Express - Limited Stop / Motorway Services or non stop services. (Non stop or very limited Dublin-Cork-Waterford etc)

The regulator allows two licenses of each type on every corridor which according to guidelines should be seperated by 30 minutes from that of any other operator which has the same type of license for the same route. These licenses are issued on a first come first issued basis and the first two operators to apply get the license, after both are gone no more can apply.

It is very important to note that Bus Eireann Expressway is considered a commercial operator and has the same rights as other commercial operators with this and they have no better or worse rights than other companies when it comes to cancelling or start routes, adding or removing stops or changing times of their buses etc. Note that Interurban and Interurban Express service are considered different services.

So why is Bus Eireann Expressway not operating hardly any express routes? Essentially commercial management of the company has been poor, when the motorway network was build BE management felt that there would not be demand for express or non stop services and had no interest in them and is widely believed to think that they would not be viable and would be a waste of money.

Other operators such as Citylink, GoBus, Aircoach etc felt differently and applied for the licenses and made the services a success and acording to information released by the National Transport Authority, managed to achieve a modal shift to public transport that in some cases such as Dublin to Cork, the non stop services from private enterprise resulted in up to a 60% increase of passengers taking public transport on the route.

The problem is that BE were late to this party since they by the time BE realised they made a mistake in not applying for the routes, all of the licenses on the main corridors were taken up,. Because of this Bus Eireann cannot register motorway services on a lot of routes - essentially they missed the boat.

Probably a similar problem to the PS worker mindeset
If you are used to managing a company that won't be allowed to fail you don't really have a commercial mindset so won't think innovativly the way say you would if running Aircoach


I certainly don't agree the state has no role providing services and neither do most people or political leaders the question is to what extent and how well managed

Heisenberg1

XPS_Zero wrote: »

"What do you mean I don't get overtime pay on sick days?????"

"Well ...you didn't actually do any overtime you're out sick..."

"But overtime should be calculated as part of my regular pay when deciding sick pay rate"

"But it's NOT regular pay that's the point"

(Blank stare - does not compute)

"Ah heare diz is n attack on de ordinary decent wuurkin class...err...erm...HEALTH N SAFETY...."

"Go back to work ffsake"

This was the most cringeworthy post I've read on boards ever. What were you thinking?

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I certainly don't agree the state has no role providing services and neither do most people or political leaders the question is to what extent and how well managed

Certainly I wouldn't like to see Bus Eireann go to the wall but carrying on as is, is not sustainable either and something has to change and the company has to give better value for money to the taxpayers and make better user of taxpayers money than they are at the moment since a lot is being wasted because of their working practices. and rotas which have to change as a matter of urgency.

The trouble is on one hand the Bus Eireann PSO side is supposed to be set up as a public service where the public come first but in reality it doesn't work out like that, the state transport companies are happy to do anything that suits the public if it suits them, but if it doesn't suit them and is for the greater good they are not interested, and then the unions turn around and accuse the privates of putting their own interests before that of the public.

This is where the public service element of BE is not working correctly, The whole idea of setting up a publicly owned company is that the interests of the public and the service to the public comes first, the problem in Ireland is normally this doesn't happen to the same degree it does in other countries, since if something improves the system as a whole disadvantages a state company, they are not keen on it being implemented.

For example using an overall map or journey planner with all operators on would be very beneficial for the customers and passengers and users of public transport. There is no reason for a public company to not do this, because a public company is set up to serve the public and this is in the interests of the public so they should do it.

horseburger

IE 222 wrote: »

Fully aware of PSO services it will take a lot more than a free bus to entice PO to take up all them services. It also require a massive increase in drivers ect. BE are by no means gods.

Your living in a fantasy world thinking once BE is gone PO won't start increasing prices soon after.
NTA can only control routes that companies are willing to serve. What happens when no company bids to run a service. They will get more money one way or another either by higher fares or high tax payer subsidies.

It's an integrated transport system the country is crying out for and desperately needs not a load of individual companies eventually doing there own thing.

I guess an example of this is the new Dublin Coach service to and from Dublin and Belfast, even though Aircoach and Bus Éireann / Translink Ulster Bus already serve both cities.

http://www.dublincoach.ie/news.php

http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M1-bus-belfast-dublin-city.php

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

I guess an example of this is the new Dublin Coach service to and from Dublin and Belfast.

Cross Border services are outside the jurisdiction of the National Transport Authority in almost every respect as has been covered in that thread over and over again. Since it is an intra-EU route it falls under EU rules.

Such a service would not be permitted if operated fully within Ireland because there are guidelines in place to make sure that it does not happen. It is no way related to any services operated within Ireland.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

Cross Border services are outside the jurisdiction of the National Transport Authority in almost every respect as has been covered in that thread over and over again. Since it is an intra-EU route it falls under EU rules.

Such a service would not be permitted if operated fully within Ireland because there are guidelines in place to make sure that it does not happen. It is no way related to any services operated within Ireland.

My point is, as you well know, that it is another company serving both cities, where there are already two other companies serving both locations, which is the point being made by IE 222, to whom I responded, who stated "It's an integrated transport system the country is crying out for and desperately needs not a load of individual companies eventually doing their own thing".

The example I gave is a valid example, of the the point that was made by IE 222

murphaph

Are you guys for real? Germany and Switzerland have the most integrated transport systems in the world probably and involve loads of private firms in their networks. You guys need to look beyond CIE for inspiration!

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

My point is, that it is another company serving both cities, where there are already two other companies serving both locations, which is the point being made by the person to whom I responded.

Your point is not relevant because there is nothing anyone in this state or in Northern Ireland can really do about it because they are required by EU law to apply EU principles for intra-EU routes and cannot apply their own rules because to do so would be a breach of said law.

If Belfast for example was in Ireland, there would not be a service similar to what Dublin Coach are operating because there are already two express operators on the route, Translink with the X2 and Aircoach with the 705X because two operators would already have Interurban Express operations.

Even if there was one operator Dublin Coach would not be able to operate at the times and locations that they are operating because the NTA have a clause in the guidelines to allow them to deny them a license for such service.

If you have an issue with cross-border services, unfortunately there is nothing in this country can do about it, I suggest that you contact your local MEP and get him to lobby the powers that be in Brussels who are responsible and passed such legislation into law.

My point is that the route you are quoting has no bearing on routes within Ireland because it's not even considered an Irish route.

murphaph

horseburger wrote: »

My point is, that it is another company serving both cities, where there are already two other companies serving both locations

But so what? Ryanair and Aer Lingus both fly Dublin-Berlin and I thank God they do. Keeps the fares in check.

On commercial routes that can survive without state intervention, competition will keep fares and service levels in check naturally.

Let as many operators as they want compete with each other on the main intercity routes. That means the taxpayer can stay completely out of them, which is a good thing.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

Your point is not relevant because there is nothing anyone in this state or in Northern Ireland can really do about it because they are required by EU law to apply EU principles for intra-EU routes and cannot apply their own rules because to do so would be a breach of said law.

If Belfast for example was in Ireland, there would not be a service similar to what Dublin Coach are operating at the times and locations that they are operating, because the NTA have a clause in the guidelines to allow them to deny them a license for such service.

If you have an issue with cross-border services, unfortunately there is nothing in this country can do about it, I suggest that you contact your local MEP and get him to lobby the powers that be in Brussels who are responsible and passed such legislation into law.

Stop attempting to distract from the valid point being made. The post I replied to made the point about different companies doing their own thing. Another company starting a service between both Dublin and Belfast is an example of that.

I experienced your attempts to misrepresent what I stated in a previous thread. Stop trying to do that here.

devnull

murphaph wrote: »

Let as many operators as they want compete with each other on the main intercity routes. That means the taxpayer can stay completely out of them, which is a good thing.

See the Dublin Coach thread as for why I feel de-regulation wouldn't work in this country, we need competition, but like the UK has proven, de-regulated competition with no regulation at all means that the public don't win out at the end of the day.

end of the road

Pkiernan wrote: »

Here's hoping every last driver is let go...
Then they can try getting a job in the real world.

wanting people to lose their job in the only world that is, because they are doing better then the person making the wish, says mor about the person making the wish, then it does about the people the person makes the wish against.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

Stop attempting to distract from the valid point being made.
.

The poster discussed something relating to the Irish Market and we have been discussing the Irish market, rules within Ireland and licensing etc based under the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009 which the NTA is bound in law to enact.

You then brought up a route that is an intra-EU route run under intra-EU regulations which the NTA can not apply their own rules and are bound by law to enact the laws of the European Union which have been passed in Brussels.

My point is, that it is another company serving both cities, where there are already two other companies serving both locations because EU law makes it possible for them to do so, no matter what any politician, be it here, Northern Ireland or the UK thinks of it.

If Belfast was in Republic of Ireland the NTA would have legislative power to turn down that route on the basis that there was already two licenses. Since they don't have any jurisdiction over it they cannot do that and that is why there is more than two operators.

Do you understand why comparing a route within Ireland under Irish Legislation with an intra-EU route under EU legislation is comparing two totally different things?

The post I replied to made the point about different companies doing their own thing. Another company starting a service between both Dublin and Belfast is an example of that.

Something which is only possible because the NTA are powerless to stop it and intra-EU routes are subject to EU law and not Irish law.

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

wanting people to lose their job in the only world that is, because they are doing better then the person making the wish, says mor about the person making the wish, then it does about the people the person makes the wish against.

There are excellent dedicated people working in BE for sure.

However being gouged by a group of well sinecured, well protected workforce also does tend stick in the craw of the average taxpayer.

Unfortunately there are those who blindly think that these are just ' working people trying to better themselves'without realising that their wages and costs are way out of line with competing services, and that they are backed by a group who see no problem trying to screw the ordinary person who uses the service and who is getting paid far less than the so called 'embattled drivers'.


You couldn't make this up- wake up Ireland, you are being gouged.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

The poster discussed something relating to the Irish Market and we have been discussing the Irish market, rules within Ireland and licensing etc based under the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009 which the NTA is bound in law to enact.

You then brought up a route that is an intra-EU route run under intra-EU regulations which the NTA can not apply their own rules and are bound by law to enact the laws of the European Union which have been passed in Brussels.

My point is, that it is another company serving both cities, where there are already two other companies serving both locations because EU law makes it possible for them to do so, no matter what any politician, be it here, Northern Ireland or the UK thinks of it.

If Belfast was in Republic of Ireland the NTA would have legislative power to turn down that route on the basis that there was already two licenses. Since they don't have any jurisdiction over it they cannot do that and that is why there is more than two operators.

Do you understand why comparing a route within Ireland under Irish Legislation with an intra-EU route under EU legislation is comparing two totally different things?



Something which is only possible because the NTA are powerless to stop it and intra-EU routes are subject to EU law and not Irish law.

Stop attempting to distract from the point being made. The example I gave is a valid one, in reply to the point being made about individual companies running separate services.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

Stop attempting to distract from the point being made. The example I gave is a valid one, in reply to the point being made about individual companies running separate services.

I'm not quite sure what relevance it has to a discussion about Bus Eireann, however, since regardless of what happens to Bus Eireann, the laws will still be the same since they are set at a European Level and there is nothing that anyone in this state can do about it even if they wanted to.

So it's really a mute point in this whole debate, the fact is that Dublin-Belfast cannot be considered as being representative of the public transport network and competition in the market or the market as a whole because of the fact it is special case where different rules, totally out of the control of our country, apply.

The NTA can and does limit operators on licensed services and ensures that there is no more than two operators of Interurban and Interurban Express services on a corridor for routes within Ireland. They are unable to do so for international routes because they do not have the power to do so in law because EU law applies.

I've not been following this much but saw D O'Leary on prime time there giving very few direct answers , so what is the real issue regards the pay element of their grievance? They want to be entitled to over time? He went on about "yellow pack" etc and racing to the bottom but offered nothing to back it up

end of the road

murphaph wrote: »

The state has no business actually operating transport services, especially bus services.

the state has absolutely every business in running transport that is paid for by the tax payer, to insure subsidies are kept low. i have witnessed nothing to convince me that moving to another model will allow us to keep the current level of subsidy, and the amount of services we currently have.

murphaph wrote: »

This can all be tendered out (following the German model or TfL model) and we gain private sector efficiency and maybe even a smile from the staff now and again.

private sector efficientsy didn't come to the uk railway, which in many areas is hugely inefficient more then br ever could have been. private sector efficientsy when it comes to subsidized services is in my view rare from my experience. the private sector efficientsy can be gained by operators opening routes at their own expence. i'm not bothered about a smile from the staff as long as they answer my questions (they always do i find) and drive the bus to it's destination (again, that is always done)

murphaph wrote: »

You just do it the German way.

NTA recognises a public service need for a bus route from x to y. NTA receives all the fares from the route. NTA says "we want an operator to run these services, with this level of punctuality, how much will you do it for?" Private companies tender for the route and the NTA selects an operator and contracts the route to them. The private operator never gets their hands on the fares, which are all returned to the NTA.

This stuff is tried and tested outside Ireland. It's not rocket science.

but that model is what IE222 is talking about.

murphaph wrote: »

Are you guys for real? Germany and Switzerland have the most integrated transport systems in the world probably and involve loads of private firms in their networks. You guys need to look beyond CIE for inspiration!

i can't speak for others but i certainly have looked for inspiration beyond CIE. however i still believe a publically owned company is the best way. i might be even willing to support a bunch of smaller publically owned companies. but as long as they are publically owned. i'm hoping the issues at bus eireann can be solved, so that we can continue to have a publically owned bus company.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

I've not been following this much but saw D O'Leary on prime time there giving very few direct answers , so what is the real issue regards the pay element of their grievance? They want to be entitled to over time? He went on about "yellow pack" etc and racing to the bottom but offered nothing to back it up

The company is on record as saying there are 1,378 full time drivers who last year worked an average of 1.6 hours overtime per day which equates to 1,636 full time equivalent drivers.

In 2016 the average driver paid hours were 9.4 and the average revenue generating driving time was 5.5 hours per day which allowed a signifcent number of drivers to increase their earnings to over €60,000.

The report says that in many cases, the senior, higher earning drivers have an easier schedule with less weekend work, and less actual revenue generating driving time than the people.

This gives the impression that the new entrants are doing the donkey work with more weekend work, harder schedules, less overtime and more driving hours whilst the people at the top of the tree are driving less, earning more, claiming more over-time, working on the nicer routes with the better schedules.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what relevance it has to a discussion about Bus Eireann, however, since regardless of what happens to Bus Eireann, the laws will still be the same since they are set at a European Level and there is nothing that anyone in this state can do about it even if they wanted to.

So it's really a mute point in this whole debate, the fact is that Dublin-Belfast cannot be considered as being representative of the public transport network and competition in the market or the market as a whole because of the fact it is special case where different rules, totally out of the control of our country, apply.

The NTA can and does limit operators on licensed services and ensures that there is no more than two operators of Interurban and Interurban Express services on a corridor for routes within Ireland. They are unable to do so for international routes because they do not have the power to do so in law because EU law applies.

It is very relevant, when the discussion about Bus Éireann also includes people posting comments here, hoping that Bus Éireann collapses, saying the drivers should be happy to be paid less, and calling then morons, saying they are striking for the pure fun of it, and saying that Bus Éireann routes should be operated by other companies, despite there being no assurance at all, that other companies would operate all the routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.

So considering that, I think it is relevant to discuss companies like Dublin Coach starting a new service between Dublin and Belfast.

It is more relevant than, for example in a recent discussion, where some posters, advocated the segregation of passengers, with regard to their reasons for using bus and rail services, describing passengers using services for "non essential journeys" and "frivolous journeys".

murphaph

end of the road wrote: »

i can't speak for others but i certainly have looked for inspiration beyond CIE. however i still believe a publically owned company is the best way. i might be even willing to support a bunch of smaller publically owned companies. but as long as they are publically owned. i'm hoping the issues at bus eireann can be solved, so that we can continue to have a publically owned bus company.

Lol. Yeah that's just what we need...A bunch of mini Bus Eireanns.

What else should we nationalise then?

oppenheimer1

horseburger wrote: »

It is very relevant when the discussion about Bus Éireann also includes people posting comments here, hoping that Bus Éireann collapses, saying the drivers should be happy to be paid less, and calling then morons, saying they are striking for the pure fun of it, and saying that Bus Éireann routes should be operated by other companies, despite there being no assurance at all, that other companies would operate all the routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.


So considering that, I think it is relevant to discuss companies like Dublin Coach starting a new service between Dublin and Belfast.

It is more relevant than a recent discussion, where some posters, advocated the segregation of passengers, with regard to their reasons for using bus and rail services, describing passengers using services for "non essential journeys" and "frivolous journeys".

While I wouldn't use that language myself, you have to question the collective intelligence of a group going on strike against an almost insolvent company.

But I suppose that they were looking for a pay rise at the start of the year tells you everything.

murphaph

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While I wouldn't use that language myself, you have to question the collective intelligence of a group going on strike against an almost insolvent company.

But I suppose that they were looking for a pay rise at the start of the year tells you everything.

We all know of course that they are banking on the taxpayer being shaken down again to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed.

centredivide

Was reading this thread tonight and felt I had to sign up to correct some nonsense being posted here, the NTA did not do half of this stuff that 'devnull' claimed.

- Luas Cross City : The RPA/TII were responsible for this. Detailed planning was done long before the NTA got going.
-Leap Card and all its related features: The RPA had this progressed long before the NTA came about. They only came in at the end.
-Wifi on CIE Transport - BE and IR trialled this before the NTA even mentioned it. Their idea, applied to NTA for funding.
- Real Time info - This was being progressed by the DOT and the companies before the NTA came about.
- Leap 90: Based on Dublin Buses well known T90.
- Onboard passenger info: Developed by the transport companies using their AVL systems , NTA only paid for it
- Increase in double deck buses in regional cities: BE proposed the purchase of these buses, in fact the NTA never funded the amount BE actually looked for!
- Easier to read timetables - They can't settle on the same format!
- 24 hour bus services - Dublin Bus idea but the NTA won't pay for it!
- Charging points: Irish Rail started this when the NTA wasn't around, BE followed (even on their own Expressway buses) and now Dublin Bus is following. Nothing to Do with the NTA.
- New Luas trams - part of cross city already mentioned
- returning of stored Irish Rail stock - Irish Rail are asking the NTA for money for this!

After that you are only left with some maps and signs so if that's all what they are good for, it's a waste of money!

devnull

Saying that Bus Éireann routes should be operated by other companies, despite there being no assurance at all, that other companies would operate all the routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.

There is no sure fire assurances of many things in life. The only things that are certain are that we are born and we die, there are things which are more likely than not, but there is nothing certain in life even if you appear to wish there was.

There is nothing to back-up your point, because operators have not had the chance to do what you are claiming yet, if they do have the chance and they don't fill the services and the NTA tenders for them and nobody is interested you can turn around and come back to this thread and say I am wrong and you are right and because I'm a honest person like that, I will say I am wrong and you are right.

So considering that, I think it is relevant to discuss companies like Dublin Coach starting a new service between Dublin and Belfast.

So basically on one hand your arguing that there is no assurances that companies will operate services then with the next part of your post you appear to be saying there is an example that other services are having three operators when two are enough?

My question to you is this - How do you feel about what Dublin Coach are doing, what do you feel should be done about it, if anything to help public transport in this country? You are bringing them up, I just want you to give me a bit of context and put meat on the bones.

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

the state has absolutely every business in running transport that is paid for by the tax payer, to insure subsidies are kept low. i have witnessed nothing to convince me that moving to another model will allow us to keep the current level of subsidy, and the amount of services we currently have.



private sector efficientsy didn't come to the uk railway, which in many areas is hugely inefficient more then br ever could have been. private sector efficientsy when it comes to subsidized services is in my view rare from my experience. the private sector efficientsy can be gained by operators opening routes at their own expence. i'm not bothered about a smile from the staff as long as they answer my questions (they always do i find) and drive the bus to it's destination (again, that is always done)



but that model is what IE222 is talking about.



i can't speak for others but i certainly have looked for inspiration beyond CIE. however i still believe a publically owned company is the best way. i might be even willing to support a bunch of smaller publically owned companies. but as long as they are publically owned. i'm hoping the issues at bus eireann can be solved, so that we can continue to have a publically owned bus company.

Sure sure you do,when you need a raise, John Q Taxpayer will pony up.


Sure you do.

XPS_Zero

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

This was the most cringeworthy post I've read on boards ever. What were you thinking?

You know that's not an actual argument right? One could it that kinda snarky stuff as a reply to any post, it's not really addressing anything I said. Try making an actual argument

I was thinking that demanding OT as part of sickpay is stupid?

...and anyone used to dealing with PS union heads knows that's exactly how they talk, and make everything health and safety even when it's nothing to do with it

devnull

centredivide wrote: »

- Luas Cross City : The RPA/TII were responsible for this. Detailed planning was done long before the NTA got going.

You do realise that opening a LUAS line involves more than just planning?

Leap Card and all its related features: The RPA had this progressed long before the NTA came about. They only came in at the end.

Because expanding it to about 10 other operators, adding Dublin Bikes functionality, rolling it out to commuter stations in Cork, devising a brand new ticketing system for private operators to use, rolling it out to five cities, creating a student version, creating a tourist version, creating one especially for language schools, moving paper tickets to smart-card, building a leap top up app is not really much is it? All of which was done by the NTA.

Wifi on CIE Transport - BE and IR trialled this before the NTA even mentioned it. Their idea, applied to NTA for funding.

Dublin Bus did trial it on the Airlink and Bus Eireann had a trial on their Expressway services yes, but the first vehicles with it on as standard were delivered and purchased by the NTA to a spec that was set by the NTA.

Real Time info - This was being progressed by the DOT and the companies before the NTA came about.

It was being progressed for years it was being talked about for many many many years, the fact is that like with a lot of projects at the time, there was always a lot in process but most people never saw

Leap 90: Based on Dublin Buses well known T90.

Travel 90 was a far inferior product for many people, myself included, it was subject to massive fraud in the early days when it was on magstripe ticket when someone put a piece of tape over the ticket to keep using it over and over again. I admit that the non magstripe ticket was better.

However like a lot of things before the NTA, there was no integration, it was criminal it took a regulator to launch a ticket which allowed discounted modal changes when two of the companies involved were sister companies of each other, this is exactly why the NTA was needed in the first place.

The T90 also had drawbacks, firstly you had to actively buy it and often especially towards the end it was very hard to find in shops and it was only valid on Dublin Bus services. Leap 90 is far better, everybody gets it, nobody has to do anything about it and it works on all modes.

Onboard passenger info: Developed by the transport companies using their AVL systems , NTA only paid for it.

NTA paid for it and I think you will find with Dublin City Council also paid for a considerable amount of work in order to roll out on street signs and a real time app. Once again, this was another system that was promised for many many many years but like others, magically only appeared when the NTA were on the scene.

Increase in double deck buses in regional cities: BE proposed the purchase of these buses, in fact the NTA never funded the amount BE actually looked for!

So you admit that without NTA funding, Bus Eireann would not have got the vehicles?

Easier to read timetables - They can't settle on the same format!

They have a whole PDF that was professionally designed for transport information that has yet not been implemented, I have no idea why this is but it was previously suggested there was pushback from operators about the erosion of their brand.

24 hour bus services - Dublin Bus idea but the NTA won't pay for it!

From what I have heard there is simply a disagreement with how much one party wants and the other party is willing to offer and the NTA want to push it but they have yet to agree terms. Unfortunately without knowing what each party is asking for it's hard to tell who is in te right here.

Charging points: Irish Rail started this when the NTA wasn't around, BE followed (even on their own Expressway buses) and now Dublin Bus is following. Nothing to Do with the NTA.

Considering the vehicles belong to the NTA, are being paid for by the NTA and are being ordered by the NTA, I'd be very surprised if they didn't have a say in the spec of them, normally people don't sign over a check for things they are buying without having a say of what they are getting.

After that you are only left with some maps and signs so if that's all what they are good for, it's a waste of money!

You believe that opening the Phoenix Park Tunnel is a waste of money, start visitor cards to encourage tourists is a waste of money, a journey planner allowing the public to plan journeys across all modes of operation is a waste of money, making Connolly Station wheelchair accessible and installing lifts at other stations is a waste of money?

You also believe fare capping is a waste of money, cycling and walking planners are a waste of money, commemorating 1916 with a special pass is a waste of money, Departure and Local Area Boards at Airports, Stations and high traffic areas to help tourists who may be lost is a waste of money,

You also appear to believe that LocaLink a Rural Transport Iniative to make sure people in rural areas can move about, you also believe that a successful track record in getting modal shift from the car to public transport is a waste of money, Maps and guides for major events such as St Patrick's Day are a waste of money,

If so I cannot help you.

The fact is that I look at what state things were in before the NTA were active and the state of things after and there is a huge world of difference, one of the biggest being that before the NTA we were always hearing of many many things were coming soon but the thing is, as many people learnt, when the companies are left to their own devices soon never comes 99% of the time.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

There is no sure fire assurances of many things in life. The only things that are certain are that we are born and we die, there are things which are more likely than not, but there is nothing certain in life even if you appear to wish there was.

There is nothing to back-up your point, because operators have not had the chance to do what you are claiming yet, if they do have the chance and they don't fill the services and the NTA tenders for them and nobody is interested you can turn around and come back to this thread and say I am wrong and you are right and because I'm a honest person like that, I will say I am wrong and you are right.



So basically on one hand your arguing that there is no assurances that companies will operate services then with the next part of your post you appear to be saying there is an example that other services are having three operators when two are enough?

My question to you is this - How do you feel about what Dublin Coach are doing, what do you feel should be done about it, if anything to help public transport in this country? You are bringing them up, I just want you to give me a bit of context and put meat on the bones.

Thanks for the philosophical contribution to the discussion.

I have a concern, about the introduction of services like this new Dublin Coach service, regarding whether or not other companies would serve intermediate towns, if they are to take over routes, that are currently operated by Bus Éireann, as advocated by people in this discussion.

If Bus Éireann does collapse, in the way some people in this discussion would like to see happen, one result will be that the passengers who get the Bus Éireann / Translink Ulster Bus services at Sprucefield, Newry and Banbridge, would have one less service to use, especially at night, where passengers from those locations take the services to Dublin Airport.

Another example, is the various towns served on the Dublin Derry number 33 bus, for example Monaghan, with regard to the proposed ending of the Derry Dublin service.

This new Dublin Coach service is another example of a service between cities, but not serving intermediate towns.

I have already stated, that the new service between Dublin and Belfast, is an example of what the poster, IE 22, was saying, about individual companies operating separate services. It is also another example of a service, between cities, avoiding intermediate towns.

XPS_Zero

centredivide wrote: »

Was reading this thread tonight and felt I had to sign up to correct some nonsense being posted here, the NTA did not do half of this stuff that 'devnull' claimed.

- Luas Cross City : The RPA/TII were responsible for this. Detailed planning was done long before the NTA got going.
-Leap Card and all its related features: The RPA had this progressed long before the NTA came about. They only came in at the end.
-Wifi on CIE Transport - BE and IR trialled this before the NTA even mentioned it. Their idea, applied to NTA for funding.
- Real Time info - This was being progressed by the DOT and the companies before the NTA came about.
- Leap 90: Based on Dublin Buses well known T90.
- Onboard passenger info: Developed by the transport companies using their AVL systems , NTA only paid for it
- Increase in double deck buses in regional cities: BE proposed the purchase of these buses, in fact the NTA never funded the amount BE actually looked for!
- Easier to read timetables - They can't settle on the same format!
- 24 hour bus services - Dublin Bus idea but the NTA won't pay for it!
- Charging points: Irish Rail started this when the NTA wasn't around, BE followed (even on their own Expressway buses) and now Dublin Bus is following. Nothing to Do with the NTA.
- New Luas trams - part of cross city already mentioned
- returning of stored Irish Rail stock - Irish Rail are asking the NTA for money for this!

After that you are only left with some maps and signs so if that's all what they are good for, it's a waste of money!

I clearly remember I think it was a guy called Kenny, IE sopokesman, pre NTA being asked why there was no wifi and he said technology changes so fast "we'd end up updating routers etc every few years"
This is the kind of answer they used to give
Think about DB before Network Direct and it's Deloitte report, BE before it's new routes. They had to be DRAGGED kicking n screaming into changing anything by outside pressure NTA and otherwise

It's amazing how much history's being rewritten to listen to many CIE staff all was golden age before the NTA came in but funny I have memory's from the 90s and 00s and I don't remember it being so great..