"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

pilly

Tramore Tilly wrote:

I would think a fair few of the women in the institutions in the 90s would have been women who had babies and who were kept in the homes until old age. I know for example there was a mother and baby home down the road from me and the women in there when I was growing up would have had babies in the 60s and 70s but they were kept in there until the 90s. At that stage they were elderly and had no income homes or pension. Im not sure whether they even got the state pension?

I agree.

Colser

pilly wrote: »

Look bubblypop you seem to derive some sort of enjoyment out of riling people up, if that's your thing fine, carry on. I don't have to believe a word you say.

I have not been proven wrong. The links show a laundry existed with residents as old as 79 not that there were still young mothers with babies there.

There was no need for any girl to go into a home in 1996 as plenty of supports existed then.

What year do you think they closed Pilly?

Grandeeod

bubblypop wrote: »

My friend didn't suffer any abuse, I never said she did. It was 94, and I doubt any of the girls suffered any abuse.
They all looked happy enough to me

Ok. I'll take out the abuse part. No probs. By the early 90s anything related to the church was on their guard. But I'm talking to my wife here (baby 88) and know my own experience. (baby 92) This brings us back to the fact that if this home did as described here, until 1996, what kind of family did your friend have? Seriously? Ireland was already a vastly different place in 1994.

eviltwin

pilly wrote: »

Look bubblypop you seem to derive some sort of enjoyment out of riling people up, if that's your thing fine, carry on. I don't have to believe a word you say.

I have not been proven wrong. The links show a laundry existed with residents as old as 79 not that there were still young mothers with babies there.

There was no need for any girl to go into a home in 1996 as plenty of supports existed then.

I wouldn't say plenty of support, there was lone parents and 100 pounds towards a pram I remember but that was it. The wait for council housing was still a long one, at least a few years. There was no subsidies for childcare and the maintenance system was a joke. Definitely better than previous generations but an unplanned pregnancy was still devastating for a lot of women.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

Ok. I'll take out the abuse part. No probs. By the early 90s anything related to the church was on their guard. But I'm talking to my wife here (baby 88) and know my own experience. (baby 92) This brings us back to the fact that if this home did as described here, until 1996, what kind of family did your friend have? Seriously? Ireland was already a vastly different place in 1994.

Oh I know, I was surprised too when she went there but her mother was very much of the old school thinking. Didn't want the neighbours to know etc etc
There were many Dublin girls in there, I didn't get the impression that they were forced in. In fact, it seemed like they did it so they got council properties easier.

beauf

bubblypop wrote: »

There were 10 deaths out of 796, listed as malnutrition.
And we don't know how long those children were in the homes or why they came to be there.

How do we know the death certs are accurate.

Catherine Corless mentioned in the full video interview from a few years back, she had found official report from an inspector that described numerous children with malnutrition, and must have been concerned about it, to document it. But these reports did not seem to have been acted on.

Grandeeod

Colser wrote: »

What year do you think they closed Pilly?

In fairness Colser, we are in no doubt that the particular laundry closed in 1996. What's in doubt is the fact that it operated as a mother and baby home to young pregnant girls in the 90s.

eviltwin

Grandeeod wrote: »

Ok. I'll take out the abuse part. No probs. By the early 90s anything related to the church was on their guard. But I'm talking to my wife here (baby 88) and know my own experience. (baby 92) This brings us back to the fact that if this home did as described here, until 1996, what kind of family did your friend have? Seriously? Ireland was already a vastly different place in 1994.

My families response to my pregnancy in 1996 was to kick me out. I didn't talk to them for years. My lack of a husband was a huge disgrace to my mother who was very involved in the church. Ireland was a different place but some people still had attitudes rooted in the 50's.

neonsofa

eviltwin wrote: »

My families response to my pregnancy in 1996 was to kick me out. I didn't talk to them for years. My lack of a husband was a huge disgrace to my mother who was very involved in the church. Ireland was a different place but some people still had attitudes rooted in the 50's.

And some still do unfortunately.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Look bubblypop you seem to derive some sort of enjoyment out of riling people up, if that's your thing fine, carry on. I don't have to believe a word you say.

I have not been proven wrong. The links show a laundry existed with residents as old as 79 not that there were still young mothers with babies there.

There was no need for any girl to go into a home in 1996 as plenty of supports existed then.

Why does the fact that my friend was in a mother and baby home rile you up?

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Mam of 4

eviltwin wrote: »

My families response to my pregnancy in 1996 was to kick me out. I didn't talk to them for years. My lack of a husband was a huge disgrace to my mother who was very involved in the church. Ireland was a different place but some people still had attitudes rooted in the 50's.

I had my first child in 92 , and because I wasn't with the father of the baby at the time , more than one of the Nurses not so politely , told me that had I been their daughter , I would be in one of the homes and the baby put up for adoption . Luckily I had a family who stood by me , who just held their heads high when people looked down on me .

beauf

Mam of 4 wrote: »

..more than one of the Nurses not so politely , told me that had I been their daughter , I would be in one of the homes....

That doesn't mean they home still operated as mother and baby. Regardless of how nasty they were. Not that you were to know.

Mam of 4

beauf wrote: »

That doesn't mean they home still operated as mother and baby. Regardless of how nasty they were. Not that you were to know.

Well , what other home would they have been talking about ? A nurses home ?
Just stating my experience , wasn't saying it was the home in Dublin , just saying that there were still mother and baby homes operational in 92.

beauf

They could have lied.

I think we have learnt after one scandal after another, that just because some one is in a position of authority doesn't mean you can accept what they say as truth. I'm not saying they did or didn't exist. Just you can't accept what people say as truthful.

Grandeeod

Folks. I haven't come into this thread to get involved in any rows with people. I genuinely think very deeply about this issue. The first post I made here highlighted that certain generations should take a look at themselves and in a way its great to see that along with myself and others, we are emabarking on a route that highlights that, along with our own experiences.

It was the 1984 story that affected me, because it was a complete opposite to what I was witnessing that year. Fast forward to the 90s and a few of us here have differing views based on our experiences. Bottom line for me though is that any parent who encouraged a daughter into a home that existed in the 90s should be ashamed of themselves.

Grandeeod

Mam of 4 wrote: »

I had my first child in 92 , and because I wasn't with the father of the baby at the time , more than one of the Nurses not so politely , told me that had I been their daughter , I would be in one of the homes and the baby put up for adoption . Luckily I had a family who stood by me , who just held their heads high when people looked down on me .

What part of the country, generally? Honest question.

It just goes to show that no matter what we like to think about ourselves and our society now, it's really not that long ago that attitudes ( thankfully ) began to change.

vicwatson

This article sums it up for me

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/07/catholic-church-children-buried-at-tuam-ireland?CMP=share_btn_fb

Jelle1880

vicwatson wrote: »

This article sums it up for me

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/07/catholic-church-children-buried-at-tuam-ireland?CMP=share_btn_fb

I just wanted to post that.
Their mock outrage and shock fools nobody.

Mam of 4

beauf wrote: »

They could have lied.

I think we have learnt after one scandal after another, that just because some one is in a position of authority doesn't mean you can accept what they say as truth. I'm not saying they did or didn't exist. Just you can't accept what people say as truthful.

They didn't lie , I'm not the only one who knows these homes were still operational in the early 90's.

Grandeeod

vicwatson wrote: »

This article sums it up for me

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/07/catholic-church-children-buried-at-tuam-ireland?CMP=share_btn_fb

How do you feel about the states involvement? And just in case I get accused of a pro Catholic Church stance, they are responsible too. We must keep exploring the role of the state in matters like this. Its seems that a certain generation in Ireland blames the Catholic church for everything. While it may have influenced peoples beliefs, it didn't stop free thinkers breaking through. I'm concerned that there weren't many free thinkers beaking through in political circles.

The Rape of Lucretia

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Different time, different perspectives. It isnt really for us to judge from ours what was done in another.

smurgen

Grandeeod wrote: »

How do you feel about the states involvement? And just in case I get accused of a pro Catholic Church stance, they are responsible too. We must keep exploring the role of the state in matters like this. Its seems that a certain generation in Ireland blames the Catholic church for everything. While it may have influenced peoples beliefs, it didn't stop free thinkers breaking through. I'm concerned that there weren't many free thinkers beaking through in political circles.

Of course the state is to blame.that goes without question.any the church gets the blame all the time does it? Give me a ****ing break. The church never gets properly nailed like they should,the always weasel out and the tax payer gets nailed.this is especially galling because it was tax payers funds used to pay for theae instutions in the first place which were then later mis managed by the religious orders. For example,the magdeline laundry settlement compensation has not been fully paid by the religious orders and they are refusing to cooperate so the state has to make a larger contribution. The religious order responsible forthe tuam body dumpings are extremely weathly, i hope they get nailed for the entire cost!!!! http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital-group-1.3000231

Grandeeod

smurgen wrote: »

Of course the state is to blame.that goes without question.any the church gets the blame all the time does it? Give me a ****ing break. The church never gets properly nailed like they should,the always weasel out and the tax payer gets nailed.this is especially galling because it was tax payers funds used to pay for theae instutions in the first place which were then later mis managed by the religious orders. For example,the magdeline laundry settlement compensation has not been fully paid by the religious orders and they are refusing to cooperate so the state has to make a larger contribution. The religious order responsible forthe tuam body dumpings are extremely weathly, i hope they get nailed for the entire cost!!!! http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital-group-1.3000231

In 2014 on a similar thread here I made the very same point about the wealthy private hospital. As I said previously, I'm not here for a row. I haven't defended the Catholic Church and the tax payer wouldn't get nailed if the state did its job properly.

kylith

pilly wrote: »

Because it's not true. You can't just post lies and expect to get away with it. I and plenty of others around here had babies in the 90's and there were no homes.

You're wrong

http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/005021.html

THIS weekend marks the 20th anniversary of the closure of the last Magdalene Laundry in Ireland.

On September 25 1996, Ireland's final laundry, which was located on Sean MacDermott Street in Dublin and run by the Sisters of Our Lady, closed its doors for good.

pilly wrote: »

There was no need for any girl to go into a home in 1996 as plenty of supports existed then.

Just because there was no need doesn't mean that they didn't go. There was no need for girls to be sent there in the 60s either. While not as bad, it was still a scandal to be pregnant out of wedlock in the mid-90s.

nacho libre

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Different time, different perspectives. It isnt really for us to judge from ours what was done in another.

What nonsense. So any backward practice or atrocity committed in the past, before our time, we can't make a judgement on? I suspect you do it all the time when it suits your political viewpoint.

Tramore Tilly

eviltwin wrote: »

My families response to my pregnancy in 1996 was to kick me out. I didn't talk to them for years. My lack of a husband was a huge disgrace to my mother who was very involved in the church. Ireland was a different place but some people still had attitudes rooted in the 50's.

My friend was kicked out of her house in 1998 for similar reasons.

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The Rape of Lucretia

nacho libre wrote: »

What nonsense. So any backward practice or atrocity committed in the past, before our time, we can't make a judgement on? I suspect you do it all the time when it suits your political viewpoint.

We can only judge it from our viewpoint, and while bearing in mind that we cannot see it from their. They were no better nor worse than us, rather acting within the context of their time and what was considered correct to do. So we can say that we, now, would not do the same thing, we cannot condemn others for doing it in a different time - we would likely have done the same had we been in their shoes.