"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

please helpThank YOU

Esel wrote: »

When a girl or woman managed to escape from one of these hellholes but were unlucky enough to meet the Garda Síochána, they were generally transported back to the 'home'.

But that's all OK, because that was then and this is now.

this is like the nazi/Garda Siochana bring mother and baby/jews back to auschwitz concentration camp/tuam galway

please helpThank YOU

Noveight wrote: »

Not, it's not.



No, we're not.

I AM NOW GOING TO SAY SORRY ON BOARDS TO THE UNMARRIED WOMEN/ BABIES OF TUAM GALWAY FOR WHAT IRELAND DID TO YOU AND YOU BABIES. REST IN PEACE

sondagefaux

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

What is not, is those from one era, retrospectively judging those of a previous one that they were not or are not part of.

The fundamental legal standards that Irish people set for themselves and for the state are set out in the Constitution of Ireland, freely adopted by the Irish electorate by referendum in 1937.

The standards set out in the Constitution are the ones by which we should judge the actions of people in 1937 and subsequent years.

These are some of the standards adopted in 1937:

3 1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and,
as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and
vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

2° The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect
as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of
injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good
name, and property rights of every citizen.

Are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn't judge people by the standards they set for themselves? :eek:

sondagefaux

IMR (Infant Mortality Rates) for children born outside of marriage and overall infant mortality rates in Ireland and in England/Wales from 1923 to 1949.



Not only were infant mortality rates in Ireland for 'extramarital' children far higher than their counterparts in England/Wales throughout the period, the gap between infant mortality rates for 'extramarital' children and children generally in Ireland is huge compared to the gap between rates for both categories of children in England/Wales.

Clearly the Irish system of dealing with infant children born outside of marriage was far inferior to the systems in England/Wales, leading to many more infant deaths than would have happened if the Irish system hadn't been as harsh.

...the IMR for extramarital births is higher than that for births in the population as a whole. It also fluctuates widely. It only dips below 200 three times before 1945: 1939, 1944 and 1945 itself. An IMR of 200 means that one in every five infants born dies. On fifteen occasions between 1923 and 1950 the IMR is over 250 (one in four infants dies); some of those peaks are approaching one in three. During the same period the highest infant mortality for all births is 74 – 7% of infants in the wider population will die before reaching their first birthday.

Chart 2 also shows the international comparisons used in the annual reports, namely the IMR for “illegitimate infants” in Northern Ireland and for England/Wales (grey lines). Both are substantially lower than the Irish rate. The IMR for the towns/cities with population over 10,000 is also included (middle green line). The “illegitimate” IMR is still higher than that for Ireland’s largest cities.


Chart 3 – deaths of infants born outside marriage 1923-1952
Calculating IMRs for extramarital births by decade, the period 23-30 has an IMR of 301, 1931-40 has an IMR of 247 and 1941-1950 has an IMR of 205. Numbers of deaths not provided in the reports can be estimated from births and IMR – the numbers in the graph from 1942 to 1950 are estimated.

None of this information is new. It has long been said that the death rates in the Homes were three or four times higher than in the general population. Some institutions were worse and some were better, but taking the average a fifth or more of all infants born in institutions would die, and at the time this was regarded as excessively high, and was higher than the comparable rates in Northern Ireland and England/Wales.

The figures given here are freely available on the CSO website, so can all be checked (the 30s are especially straightforward given most of the data is in the summary.)

http://figaries.irishphilosophy.com/2017/03/03/infant-mortality-ireland/

Samaris

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I AM NOW GOING TO SAY SORRY ON BOARDS TO THE UNMARRIED WOMEN/ BABIES OF TUAM GALWAY FOR WHAT IRELAND DID TO YOU AND YOU BABIES. REST IN PEACE

Mod: Take off the capslock please.

maryishere

sondagefaux wrote: »

IMR (Infant Mortality Rates) for children born outside of marriage and overall infant mortality rates in Ireland and in England/Wales from 1923 to 1949.



Not only were infant mortality rates in Ireland for 'extramarital' children far higher than their counterparts in England/Wales throughout the period, the gap between infant mortality rates for 'extramarital' children and children generally in Ireland is huge compared to the gap between rates for both categories of children in England/Wales.

Clearly the Irish system of dealing with infant children born outside of marriage was far inferior to the systems in England/Wales, leading to many more infant deaths than would have happened if the Irish system hadn't been as harsh.

My own mother had such a hard time under the nuns that I sometimes wonder if we were fit for self-governance at all.

vicwatson

smurgen wrote: »

Of course the state is to blame.that goes without question.any the church gets the blame all the time does it? Give me a ****ing break. The church never gets properly nailed like they should,the always weasel out and the tax payer gets nailed.this is especially galling because it was tax payers funds used to pay for theae instutions in the first place which were then later mis managed by the religious orders. For example,the magdeline laundry settlement compensation has not been fully paid by the religious orders and they are refusing to cooperate so the state has to make a larger contribution. The religious order responsible forthe tuam body dumpings are extremely weathly, i hope they get nailed for the entire cost!!!! http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital-group-1.3000231

And this is happening today as we speak, if an extension is put on to a national school where the RC church are the board of management, who owns the new extention that the taxpayer has funded? similar a brand new school, are these buildings that we are paying for being put into the property books of the RC Church?

Hagar7

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Ireland is gone very back wards this is not a Modern Thinking Nation/ State our people are very old fashioned in their thinking and time maybe if we did rejoin England and let English run t our country that is what I think even my Grandmother said we where better off under the crown

Let England run Ireland,seriously?
A country that has done more damage to Ireland than any other country on this earth,no thanks.
They can also stick their NINA where the sun doesn't shine.

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

You are correct Robert, they didn't have to send family members to those places.
My Grandmother was born out of wedlock but her family rallied round her and her mother and supported them.The priests who turned up trying to get them for their abuse camps got short shift and had to run for their lives.

But they were strong minded people who didn't give a flying fock what the neighbours thought.
Many others unfortunately were more concerned about their image than about their own flesh and blood

Correct. I had an uncle, born in the 1940s, who was raised by his grandparents as their own, though it was, of course, known locally who his mother was...

However, I also know of two cases where young girls hid their pregnancies from their families until they went into labour. (Shawls were amazing!)

In both those cases, those poor girls were thrown out of their homes. Both they, and their babies, died of exposure not far from their parents home, where you might reasonably have expected them to be shown love and compassion.

Is it absolutely horrendous what went on in those homes? Absolutely! No excuses!

The thing is, though - it wasn't just in these homes that girls and their babies were mistreated. So, yes, society at large has some responsibility to bear, too.

Graces7 wrote: »

All unbaptised babies and eg suicides were buried in unconsecrated ground, called the killeeens.. no names . no memorials.

No heaven or hell;limbo. That idea was done away with

Some places have put up plaques and consecrated the ground. Many farmers refused to allow access.

Story of a midwife who did not want dying twin newborns to go there and baptised them.. the only name she could think of was Mary so they are both Mary on the gravestone .. the Abbey, Donegal Town

If the people who were so quick to bury babies in unconsecrated ground had bothered to check, they would have found that as far back as the time of St Thomas Acquinas, there was a belief in "Baptism of Desire" - meaning they should never have been buried in unconsecrated ground, if the people burying them had known the truth of the Religion they were meant to be teaching others...

freedominacup wrote: »

There's not a family in the country with clean hands on this one. The church is hugely culpable but it was aided and abetted by almost everyone from legislators to service suppliers to janitors not to mention the "families"of the poor unfortunate commited to these places . Far more people knew exactly what was going on but for any number of reasons choose to turn a blind eye.

The biggest driver of putting pregnant girls and young women in these places was protecting property. The bastard might have a claim. That term was only removed from legislation in the past decade or so. Let the family without sin cast the first stone. I know mine can't.

No. There are families who can hold their heads up, to be fair.

There were plenty of children raised as their own by their Grandparents, though, usually, they were passed off as "late" babies. (ie. Conceived during the menopause, or just before it!).

Having said that - as far back as the late 70s, early 80s, I remember my Mother, RIP, talking about the cruelty involved in the way these young girls were treated.
She had a friend that had been sent to one, and, to the day she died, she remained horrified at the way she was treated.

So, there is no question but that it was known, to some extent, at least, what was going on.

Exactly why some people chose to raise these babies as their own, and others wanted nothing to do with them, is something I don't pretend to know.

please helpThank YOU

We Ireland should build the Largest Monument We have ever Seen in Ireland so we never can forget the injustice like tuam galway Grace waterford Garda maurice mccabe good shepherd convent nora wall mcbrarty donegal and many more this should be built on o connell street and twice the height of the spike in dublin

infogiver

Tramore Tilly wrote: »

You think if I lived in the 1950s I would be happy that women were being beaten up and dead babies dumped in sewers? You think the time line of my existence has a bearing on the atrocities carried out? Do you feel the same about WW2 Concentration Camps? Do you feel the same about US segregation? They lived in different times so their crimes are not for us to judge? What those nuns did in those homes is inexcusable regardless of the era. They were sick cruel animals.

Why don't you answer my questions? Do you hate the ordinary people who stood around and allowed the concentration camps? Who voted for the Nazi party?the people who lived alongside the KKK? Worked for them? Played golf with them ? Did business with them?
Your concentrating all your bile on one small cog in a very big wheel because you lack the capacity to process the whole big picture.
Pour as much hyperbole on it as you like.
Your only going to get more frustrated as the whole story comes out.

infogiver

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

We Ireland should build the Largest Monument We have ever Seen in Ireland so we never can forget the injustice like tuam galway Grace waterford Garda maurice mccabe good shepherd convent nora wall mcbrarty donegal and many more

Posters here don't really care about Grace or want to hear about her.
Grace was abused very recently in a family home in clear sight of everyone including social services, not behind a big wall by the RCC.
That makes some people very very uncomfortable because it's difficult to find a bogeyman to blame.
So let's not discuss it. It's far easier and more self righteous to pass judgment on something that happened 50 years ago.

FrKurtFahrt

infogiver wrote: »

Posters here don't really care about Grace or want to hear about her.
Grace was abused very recently in a family home in clear sight of everyone including social services, not behind a big wall by the RCC.
That makes some people very very uncomfortable because it's difficult to find a bogeyman to blame.
So let's not discuss it. It's far easier and more self righteous to pass judgment on something that happened 50 years ago.

I'll discuss it with you, go ahead. I'm uncomfortable, yes, but disgusted. What is YOUR judgement of it all?

pilly

infogiver wrote:

Posters here don't really care about Grace or want to hear about her. Grace was abused very recently in a family home in clear sight of everyone including social services, not behind a big wall by the RCC. That makes some people very very uncomfortable because it's difficult to find a bogeyman to blame. So let's not discuss it. It's far easier and more self righteous to pass judgment on something that happened 50 years ago.

Speak for yourself.

It would be particularly interesting to see and read about people in the 1950s/60s/70s who spoke out against all this. There must have been Jim Gralton type people on the left highlighting this RCC-state collusion? Did the conservative, wealthy media keep silent?

And surely there are loads and loads of reports in those decades from the routine state inspections of these places? Who were the companies that benefitted from the labour of the women in these places? Are any of these companies still around today? Who were the politicians whom Charles Haughey said frequented the girls in these homes? That thought alone makes me shiver. So many questions.


The scale and duration of these crimes, the targeting and demonisation of people who were among the most vulnerable in our society, the comparatively enormous power and professed moral authority of the institutions of church and state which in collaboration perpetrated these crimes, and the numerous lives which have been denied even acknowledgement of the magnitude of these crimes - putting the name of the adoptive parents down as the birth parents is an evil on a heartbreaking scale, the theft of any possibility for the child to find its real parents - warrants a full truth and reconciliation public inquiry. Now.

The sole honourable option for the leaders of this state in 2017 is to give the gift of truth to these long-suffering Irish women and their children. If that means using dna testing or examining babies' bodies for abuse or whatever, it needs to be done. A great wrong - nay, a great evil - needs to be acknowledged, atoned for and rectified insofar as that is possible. The truth will set our society free, and it will be a stronger and better society for finally having the courage to face up to these crimes.

infogiver

pilly wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

Well where is the thread full of outrage for Grace? A living breathing person who was dumped by the state in a hell hole for 20 years where she was sexually and physically abused with the full knowledge of the HSE? The HSE and TUSLA actually lied to her mother any time she enquired about her and 11 paid employees of the state who knew of her plight CONTINUE to be paid by the state to this very day and the "foster" parents continue to enjoy complete anonymity, but hey, I suppose it's a bit too close to home, a bit too near the bone for some people.

maryishere

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be particularly interesting to see and read about people in the 1950s/60s/70s who spoke out against all this.

The Roman Catholic Church was very powerful in the 50's, 60's etc in Ireland. People forget how powerful. For example , look at the Fethard-on-Sea incident, where someone who dared stand up for herself, despite huge pressure from the Priests, had her whole community denounced and their businesses boycotted from the pulpit.
http://www.thejournal.ie/fethard-on-sea-boycott-2898080-Jul2016/

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It would be particularly interesting to see and read about people in the 1950s/60s/70s who spoke out against all this. There must have been Jim Gralton type people on the left highlighting this RCC-state collusion? Did the conservative, wealthy media keep silent?

And surely there are loads and loads of reports in those decades from the routine state inspections of these places? Who were the companies that benefitted from the labour of the women in these places? Are any of these companies still around today? Who were the politicians whom Charles Haughey said frequented the girls in these homes? That thought alone makes me shiver. So many questions.


The scale and duration of these crimes, the targeting and demonisation of people who were among the most vulnerable in our society, the comparatively enormous power and professed moral authority of the institutions of church and state which in collaboration perpetrated these crimes, and the numerous lives which have been denied even acknowledgement of the magnitude of these crimes - putting the name of the adoptive parents down as the birth parents is an evil on a heartbreaking scale, the theft of any possibility for the child to find its real parents - warrants a full truth and reconciliation public inquiry. Now.

The sole honourable option for the leaders of this state in 2017 is to give the gift of truth to these long-suffering Irish women and their children. If that means using dna testing or examining babies' bodies for abuse or whatever, it needs to be done. A great wrong - nay, a great evil - needs to be acknowledged, atoned for and rectified insofar as that is possible. The truth will set our society free, and it will be a stronger and better society for finally having the courage to face up to these crimes.

Excellent post and I agree entirely.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, and if Boards is even remotely representative of Irish public opinion, people don't really want an expansive investigation into what role all the organs of the State played in this grotesque horror.
That might reveal that Irish people on the whole were a harsh judgmental cold hearted race, and we wouldn't really like that.
No, please just jump to the bit where the evil RCC monsters are to blame and no one else thank you very much.

sondagefaux

infogiver wrote: »

Excellent post and I agree entirely.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, and if Boards is even remotely representative of Irish public opinion, people don't really want an expansive investigation into what role all the organs of the State played in this grotesque horror.
That might reveal that Irish people on the whole were a harsh judgmental cold hearted race, and we wouldn't really like that.
No, please just jump to the bit where the evil RCC monsters are to blame and no one else thank you very much.

Speak for yourself.

I want a thorough investigation into every aspect of these homes, including the state's role in facilitating and/or ignoring the abuses and crimes that were committed in them.

I also want to see criminal investigations launched into any alleged crimes that could still be prosecuted.

That includes Gardaí forcibly bringing girls back to homes if they'd run away.

If the investigations conclude that previous generations of Irish people (and many still alive today) were, in the main, 'a harsh judgmental cold hearted race' then so be it.

smurgen

infogiver wrote: »

Excellent post and I agree entirely.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, and if Boards is even remotely representative of Irish public opinion, people don't really want an expansive investigation into what role all the organs of the State played in this grotesque horror.
That might reveal that Irish people on the whole were a harsh judgmental cold hearted race, and we wouldn't really like that.
No, please just jump to the bit where the evil RCC monsters are to blame and no one else thank you very much.

You keep telling us what people want and people don't want and it always seems to not reflect reality.

infogiver

smurgen wrote: »

You keep telling us what people want and people don't want and it always seems to not reflect reality.

It's in my opinion,based on this thread, and many other threads on this and similar subjects I've participated in on boards.
Just my opinion.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

You know what KKKitty? People still judge single mothers. It hasn't gone away yet.

No, it hasn't. And here's another uncomfortable thought.

How much more "righteous" are the people (thankfully, fewer of them), who still look down on, or ignore, the children of unmarried mothers?

From the (grand)parents who want nothing to do with the child, and pressurise the mother to either have the child adopted, or aborted, to the fathers who refuse to support the child, or deny that it is their child?

True, the outlook for the mother and child is much better now than it was then, thankfully - and long overdue - but has the attitude that the child is unwelcome really changed?
What about the men who see unmarried mothers as what used to be known as a "good thing"?

Unfortunately, in some cases - attitudes haven't changed as much as they should have!

It a whole lot easier to condemn others, especially historically - than to take a long, hard look at our own society....

sondagefaux wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

I want a thorough investigation into every aspect of these homes, including the state's role in facilitating and/or ignoring the abuses and crimes that were committed in them.

I also want to see criminal investigations launched into any alleged crimes that could still be prosecuted.

That includes Gardaí forcibly bringing girls back to homes if they'd run away.

If the investigations conclude that previous generations of Irish people (and many still alive today) were, in the main, 'a harsh judgmental cold hearted race' then so be it.

I don't think that there's any question but that plenty of Irish people were harsh, judgemental, and cold-hearted.

I doubt if anyone would argue that point.

The thing is - when you talk about the Irish as a race - how many races, at that time, regarded unmarried motherhood as perfectly acceptable?

Note: I am not excusing what happened, or condoning it in any way - but the Irish were not the only race to try to hide the so-called "shame" of unmarried motherhood. For that matter, those Countries whose citizens "bought" these babies didn't seem to see anything wrong with people trafficking either.

I think what happened was beyond despicable - but to act as if Ireland was unique as a society in being cruel to unmarried mothers is just not realistic.

TLDR: Yes, Ireland should be ashamed of the way these women and babies were treated - but it is not alone. Other Countries were also disgustingly cruel...

Mountainsandh

infogiver wrote: »

Excellent post and I agree entirely.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, and if Boards is even remotely representative of Irish public opinion, people don't really want an expansive investigation into what role all the organs of the State played in this grotesque horror.
That might reveal that Irish people on the whole were a harsh judgmental cold hearted race, and we wouldn't really like that.
No, please just jump to the bit where the evil RCC monsters are to blame and no one else thank you very much.

We can't "get rid" of the State.

We can get rid of religious bodies, or at least shrivel down their power to the point where they should be harmless, so this is probably the number one priority on people's minds. For me anyway, it would be a paramount first step to be taken.
A difficult task, to reclaim education, health, etc... but it can be done.
Clean up State involved individuals out of positions of influence right after.
Prosecute all who need to be prosecuted as investigations will allow. Hopefully.

pedigree 6

maryishere wrote: »

The Roman Catholic Church was very powerful in the 50's, 60's etc in Ireland. People forget how powerful. For example , look at the Fethard-on-Sea incident, where someone who dared stand up for herself, despite huge pressure from the Priests, had her whole community denounced and their businesses boycotted from the pulpit.
http://www.thejournal.ie/fethard-on-sea-boycott-2898080-Jul2016/

In fairness it wasn't hard for the Catholic community to go along with what the priest preached from the pulpit.
The protestants were always looked at as outsiders of this country (especially rural Ireland ) even though families could be here for half a millennium.
Then throw in jealousy of farms or businesses and perceivation that somehow it doesn't belong to them and you can see how things could get petty and esculate.

The boycott ended when the local priest bought a packet of smokes in the local shop run by a protestant woman.

But Ireland was a horrific place.
Mixed marriages were forced by the Catholic church to bring up their children as Catholics. As apparently church of Ireland doesn't matter and you go to hell.

My mother was actually told that by the local parish priest one day.
She was playing with her sister outside the house on the road and the priest was walking by.
He stops and tells them that they should convert to Catholicism or otherwise they will go to hell.
This was in the 1950's.
She was 6 years old at the time and her sister 8. They ran into the house bawling.
Who says that to a child?

Oh this was absolutely some basket case of a country.

Cdosrun

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But by the standards of the time, society chose not to prosecute, whatever the letter of the law.
Today we would prosecute - hence the strong tone of many here. A retrospective moving of the goal posts is the hypocrisy and injustice to those of that era.

You are a total troll.
Many of us lived at the time and were in the homes.
It is sickening to read your posts.

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think that there's any question but that plenty of Irish people were harsh, judgemental, and cold-hearted.

I doubt if anyone would argue that point.



TLDR: Yes, Ireland should be ashamed of the way these women and babies were treated - but it is not alone. Other Countries were also disgustingly cruel...

Direct Provision
Aras Attracta
Grace
Garda McCabe

Do any other western countries have all of these?

please helpThank YOU

sondagefaux wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

I want a thorough investigation into every aspect of these homes, including the state's role in facilitating and/or ignoring the abuses and crimes that were committed in them.

I also want to see criminal investigations launched into any alleged crimes that could still be prosecuted.

That includes Gardaí forcibly bringing girls back to homes if they'd run away.

If the investigations conclude that previous generations of Irish people (and many still alive today) were, in the main, 'a harsh judgmental cold hearted race' then so be it.

Half of tuam in galway will be packing there bags for a lovely holiday in portlaoise prison

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

I still have some faith left and the only way I can reconcile it is by believing in God and not the church.

These acts were carried out by evil people full stop.

It's very hard for older people though as they feel they still have to go to mass to show their faith.

That is my way too and has been for decades. I was massively abused but learned to forgive and to trust God.

Nothing wrong with going to Mass either. Young folk do it too It is the way you live that matters.

Graces7

kbannon wrote: »

There are approx 800 certs but we don't yet know how many bodies.
AFAIK some of the ~1000 human trafficking sales were recorded as deaths in the cover up.


The state were inspecting these institutions so were partly culpable.
Anyhow, the RCC avails of tax breaks from us and yet still doesn't pay us the money it promised to. Any further compensation payable to the state by the church is also likely to be ignored.

No.They were very very good at the paperwork and had to be to export the babies. That is what has protected them; their great manipulative skill.

was not just Ireland involved you see.

Graces7

Neyite wrote: »

I hope criminal convictions would result from this - Gardai have already been called in so that's promising I guess?

I would love to see the orders assets seized and redistributed, but I'm talking about actual proof that would stand up in a court of law. Whether we like it or not, we do have due process in Ireland and we cant convict someone because we want to, we need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's unlikely that we can prove malnutrition and deliberate starvation from decades old bones alone. We might know it happened. We might hear anecdotal data, even witness statements but it might not be enough to convict.

We don't know yet if there are 796 bodies there. We know that's how many children supposedly died in the home and have no matching burial records but until the pit is properly processed we haven't a complete tally -maybe some of those recorded as died were really adopted. We just don't know yet.

We might have proof of fraudulent record keeping, but because the records were handed over to the Co Co when the home closed, the two organisations will just point the finger at each other and we will be none the wiser.

But we need something, and we need to do this right - the world is watching. The coalition of M&B home survivors estimate that as many as 7,000 could be buried across the country by the Homes. To put this into context, that estimate is more than double the total amount of people who died in the 9/11 terror attacks in the USA.

Time to get the finger out Pope Frank.

I logged on to Catholic Answers for the first time in months. They had picked up on the "it is a hoax" news item only. Then they tried to classify the bodies as aborted baby remains

I posted the news items in three places on the forum and left. I am quite sure from past experience that they will have deleted my posts.

Actually nothing to do with Pope Francis. Poor man.. wonder if he will still come here next year....