"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

philstar · 07-03-2017 05:57PM

**QUESTION**

the kids that were found in the mass grave....did they die naturally?..or were they left to die?(neglected)

pilly · 07-03-2017 06:04PM

philstar wrote:

the kids that were found in the mass grave....did they die naturally?..or were they left to die?(neglected)

Nobody knows yet.

Daisy78 · 07-03-2017 06:05PM

[quote="What I want to know is.....

How were these homes funded through the time-period that the Tuam home was in operation?

In order for these prognoses to be arrived at. there must have been some outside medical personnel involved in treating them. Who were they? What did they know of the situation and who funded that?.[/quote]

Exactly. Who issued the death certificates? Did it never occur to medical personnel visiting the home that there was an inordinate number of infant deaths. These were educated people in a position of authority who would have garnered enough respect within the community had they taken the opportunity to question what was happening. To say nobody knew what was going on inside those walls is nonsense. Somebody knew. They just didn't care enough to do anything about it.

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 06:07PM

philstar wrote: »

**QUESTION**

the kids that were found in the mass grave....did they die naturally?..or were they left to die?(neglected)

Nobody knows who is there, how they died or what happened to them once they arrived at the home despite wild speculation.

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 06:09PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

north korean leader kim jong-un would not even get a look in at Ireland 2017 maybe Enda kenny can ask kim jong -un for sum hairstyle tips

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 06:15PM

philstar wrote:

the kids that were found in the mass grave....did they die naturally?..or were they left to die?(neglected)

The cause of death for some children was malnutrition.

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 06:21PM

kbannon wrote:

Nobody knows who is there, how they died or what happened to them once they arrived at the home despite wild speculation.

As to whether all 798 children are interred in the septic tank is at this moment not known . Caroline Corless listed the names of 798 children, their ages, cause and date of death. What wild speculation are you referring too?

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 06:32PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

As to whether all 798 children are interred in the septic tank is at this moment not known . Caroline Corless listed the names of 798 children, their ages, cause and date of death. What wild speculation are you referring too?

There have been loads of assumptions made in this and other threads ranging all the way up to murder.
The simple fact is that we don't currently know how the individual bodies died and to what extent this was caused or accelerated by either members of the cloth or their policies.

Colser · 07-03-2017 06:36PM

kbannon wrote: »

There have been loads of assumptions made in this and other threads ranging all the way up to murder.
The simple fact is that we don't currently know how the children died and to what extent this was caused or accelerated by either members of the cloth or their policies.

Just out of curiosity do you think that's it's more probable that the deaths were due to natural causes or due to neglect(or worse) ?

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 06:39PM

Colser wrote: »

Just out of curiosity do you think that's it's more probable that the deaths were due to natural causes or due to neglect(or worse) ?

They are suspicious but I don't know what happened exactly which is why I'm not yet wanting to scream for blood.

Colser · 07-03-2017 06:47PM

kbannon wrote: »

They are suspicious but I don't know what happened exactly which is why I'm not yet wanting to scream for blood.

None of us know exactly but given what we've heard over the years from "survivors" of these types of institutions surely you can accept that it's probable that the conditions and treatment of the mothers and their babies must have had horrific consequences?

gctest50 · 07-03-2017 06:59PM

Daisy78 wrote: »

Exactly. Who issued the death certificates? Did it never occur to medical personnel visiting the home that there was an inordinate number of infant deaths. These were educated people in a position of authority who would have garnered enough respect within the community had they taken the opportunity to question what was happening. To say nobody knew what was going on inside those walls is nonsense. Somebody knew. They just didn't care enough to do anything about it.

It wouldn't have been that easy for a doctor to raise an objection, be all tidied up next time he was around

- look at Aras Attracta - would probably have got nowhere without the video evidence, they even tried to get that blocked in the court

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 07:01PM

Colser wrote: »

None of us know exactly but given what we've heard over the years from "survivors" of these types of institutions surely you can accept that it's probable that the conditions and treatment of the mothers and their babies must have had horrific consequences?

I've read books. I've seen files. I know what went on in many of these hell-holes.
I'm still not going to make any wild assumptions despite your line of questioning.
The reality is that we don't know how many kids are down there and how or why they died.

07-03-2017 07:09PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

The cause of death for some children was malnutrition.

Is that on the death certificates? How many, or is that known?

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 07:10PM

gctest50 wrote: »

It wouldn't have been that easy for a doctor to raise an objection, be all tidied up next time he was around

- look at Aras Attracta - would probably have got nowhere without the video evidence, they even tried to get that blocked in the court

Very Well Said video evidence dos not lie the tried to block the video evidence as well that case was very nastyAras Attracta how many more and now we have Grace to to add to the tuam galway this is Disgusting

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 07:13PM

kbannon wrote:

There have been loads of assumptions made in this and other threads ranging all the way up to murder. The simple fact is that we don't currently know how the individual bodies died and to what extent this was caused or accelerated by either members of the cloth or their policies.

There is 798 death certs, do you not find the death certs truthful? One of the causes was malnutrition, insufficient food causing death. For that as a cause of death generally someone is cupable.

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 07:15PM

bubblypop wrote:

Is that on the death certificates? How many, or is that known?

Caroline Corless mentioned the cause of several of the deaths, malnutrition was mentioned as to the numbers I don't have the exact number. Ear infection was another cause of death.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2017 07:15PM

blinding wrote: »

Just out of curiosity ;

Where was the State ?

Where were FF/FG/Lab or what ever other political parties were around in those days ?

Did a lot of Babies die in those times from infections/tuberculosis/or other ailments that could be treated today .

By the way I am an atheist and have been since I was old enough to realise this religion stuff is well dodgy (13/14 made even before)

The catholic church is becoming a very handy scapegoat for so many of the ills of this country in the past . They are such a handy cop out for the political parties that were in power and the State .

I am not saying that the Catholic church are with-out blame . They have behaved very badly particularly those at the top that appear to have protected the Institution at all costs.

Look also at the Political parties and the State because you can be sure that the political parties were well aware of what was going on . To Irish political parties information was/is power and they made sure that they knew what was going on in Irish society .

The Catholic church are not without blame in Tuam. Just like they are not without blame in lots of institutions from Daingean to Letterfrack across many many years. However, since my first introduction to institutional abuse in 1992 when Christine Buckley went public and the floodgates opened, there has been a consistant attack on the Catholic church and that alone. I'm no defender of the church in any fashion, but any intelligent person would understand that the state and its minions facilitated all of this.

This thread is littered with understandable anger, but very little of it is directed at successive Governments that abdicated their social responsibilities. The political class stood by and let all this abuse happen by conveniently sweeping it under the carpet. The aided and abetted the church. I've read a lot of posts here that call for getting rid of the church, stripping it of its wealth and punishing it until it is crushed. I've no problem with that, but can we not do the same to the political class that facilitated it all. How about that? I'm not trying to complicate matters, but all of us as a 2017 society must step up and point the finger everywhere it needs to be pointed. Politicians need to stop crapping on with pathetic press releases expressing sadness. They need to stand up and say that previous administrations and the political class in general, failed victims of instutional abuse along with the Catholic church.

Furthermore, some ordinary people of a certain generation need to take a long hard look at themselves, because they too collaborated. I say this because of a story that was posted earlier in the thread about a girl from Galway who got pregnant in 1984 and was sent to Bessborough Mother and Baby home in Cork. It was a heart breaking story and I can relate to it because I was a teenager in 1984. What saddened me about it was the obvious differences in Irish society back then. I lived in a Dublin council estate that year and I distinctly remember a girl in her early 20s who had 2 kids and as they said back then, wasn't married or even living with the father(s). Didn't work either and I say that so as not to portray her as some kind of of supermam struggling with a job and bills. She was basically a welfare case. Its interesting that the girl from Galway was in UCG and went through a terrible ordeal, while the girl in a Dublin council estate on welfare, kept her kids.

07-03-2017 07:18PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Caroline Corless mentioned the cause of several of the deaths, malnutrition was mentioned as to the numbers I don't have the exact number. Ear infection was another cause of death.

Found it.
10 deaths

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 07:22PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

There is 798 death certs, do you not find the death certs truthful? One of the causes was malnutrition, insufficient food causing death. For that as a cause of death generally someone is cupable.

Firstly there were 796 certs.
Secondly, I reckon that there could be many of these being forgeries to aid the sale of babies scam they had going on.
Thirdly, I don't know whether the malnutrition was down to the mother, nuns, both or something else and would rather wait for the coroner to look at them before I decide how they died.

pilly · 07-03-2017 07:22PM

Grandeeod wrote:

Furthermore, some ordinary people of a certain generation need to take a long hard look at themselves, because they too collaborated. I say this because of a story that was posted earlier in the thread about a girl from Galway who got pregnant in 1984 and was sent to Bessborough Mother and Baby home in Cork. It was a heart breaking story and I can relate to it because I was a teenager in 1984. What saddened me about it was the obvious differences in Irish society back then. I lived in a Dublin council estate that year and I distinctly remember a girl in her early 20s who had 2 kids and as they said back then, wasn't married or even living with the father(s). Didn't work either and I say that so as not to portray her as some kind of of supermam struggling with a job and bills. She was basically a welfare case. Its interesting that the girl from Galway was in UCG and went through a terrible ordeal, while the girl in a Dublin council estate on welfare, kept her kids.

I would agree with this totally given that it was in the 80's. My son was born in Dublin in 1988 and I wasn't sent away by anyone.

There are a lot of people that won't accept any blame or responsibility for any of this.

However I do accept that the 40's and 50's were a different time.

07-03-2017 07:27PM

A friend of mine got pregnant in 1994 & she stayed in a mother and baby home in Dublin.
There were lots of Dublin girls in there, it did seem however that the nuns made sure you got a council property when you left. So maybe that's why.......

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 07:27PM

kbannon wrote:

Firstly there were 796 certs. Secondly, I reckon that there could be many of these being forgeries to aid the sale of babies scam they had going on. Thirdly, I don't know whether the malnutrition was down to the mother, nuns, both or something else and would rather wait for the coroner to look at them before I decide how they died.

Apologies I said 798 instead of 796. As for forgeries, you're just guessing. Lastly malnutrition is listed as a cause of death in several cases. Considering the nuns were recieveing payment for the care of these children they bear responsibility. Last I'm not very clued in on coroner techniques but I'm not sure if it is possible to determine malnutrition from the bones of very young children. Open to correction of course.

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 07:29PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

The Catholic church are not without blame in Tuam. Just like they are not without blame in lots of institutions from Daingean to Letterfrack across many many years. However, since my first introduction to institutional abuse in 1992 when Christine Buckley went public and the floodgates opened, there has been a consistant attack on the Catholic church and that alone. I'm no defender of the church in any fashion, but any intelligent person would understand that the state and its minions facilitated all of this.

This thread is littered with understandable anger, but very little of it is directed at successive Governments that abdicated their social responsibilities. The political class stood by and let all this abuse happen by conveniently sweeping it under the carpet. The aided and abetted the church. I've read a lot of posts here that call for getting rid of the church, stripping it of its wealth and punishing it until it is crushed. I've no problem with that, but can we not do the same to the political class that facilitated it all. How about that? I'm not trying to complicate matters, but all of us as a 2017 society must step up and point the finger everywhere it needs to be pointed. Politicians need to stop crapping on with pathetic press releases expressing sadness. They need to stand up and say that previous administrations and the political class in general, failed victims of instutional abuse along with the Catholic church.

Furthermore, some ordinary people of a certain generation need to take a long hard look at themselves, because they too collaborated. I say this because of a story that was posted earlier in the thread about a girl from Galway who got pregnant in 1984 and was sent to Bessborough Mother and Baby home in Cork. It was a heart breaking story and I can relate to it because I was a teenager in 1984. What saddened me about it was the obvious differences in Irish society back then. I lived in a Dublin council estate that year and I distinctly remember a girl in her early 20s who had 2 kids and as they said back then, wasn't married or even living with the father(s). Didn't work either and I say that so as not to portray her as some kind of of supermam struggling with a job and bills. She was basically a welfare case. Its interesting that the girl from Galway was in UCG and went through a terrible ordeal, while the girl in a Dublin council estate on welfare, kept her kids.

History shows most of the people who end up the likes of tuam galway mother and baby fostering home/industry where poor with no education/uiversity but the people who did this to poor where well educated thats why the got paid by the state this was power Jobs for the girls and boys in uniform

eviltwin · 07-03-2017 07:30PM

bubblypop wrote: »

A friend of mine got pregnant in 1994 & she stayed in a mother and baby home in Dublin.
There were lots of Dublin girls in there, it did seem however that the nuns made sure you got a council property when you left. So maybe that's why.......

1994!!!! That's the year before I got pregnant :eek::eek:

pilly · 07-03-2017 07:30PM

bubblypop wrote:

A friend of mine got pregnant in 1994 & she stayed in a mother and baby home in Dublin. There were lots of Dublin girls in there, it did seem however that the nuns made sure you got a council property when you left. So maybe that's why.......

What was the name of this home that existed in 1994. Back up that statement.

pilly · 07-03-2017 07:31PM

eviltwin wrote:

1994!!!! That's the year before I got pregnant

There were no such homes in 1994.

eviltwin · 07-03-2017 07:32PM

pilly wrote: »

There were no such homes in 1994.

The last one only closed in 1996

07-03-2017 07:33PM

pilly wrote: »

There were no such homes in 1994.

Yes there were.
In Dublin

07-03-2017 07:37PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Apologies I said 798 instead of 796. As for forgeries, you're just guessing. Lastly malnutrition is listed as a cause of death in several cases. Considering the nuns were recieveing payment for the care of these children they bear responsibility. Last I'm not very clued in on coroner techniques but I'm not sure if it is possible to determine malnutrition from the bones of very young children. Open to correction of course.

There were 10 deaths out of 796, listed as malnutrition.
And we don't know how long those children were in the homes or why they came to be there.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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