Denis Villeneuve’s Dune

gym_imposter

I watched the first one twice and it took a second viewing to realise I loved it, haven't seen this new effort yet

I hated Arrival

Shoog

Watched the first with my wife to prepare for the second yesterday. Saw the second and to be honest it was faultless and epic.

The only thing that didnt ring true to the book was stilgars fawning devotion to Paul but I suppose that was a devise to gloss over all the politics of the fremen.

Left open for third film, which given the fact that the war isn't even touch on in that, it's hard to see how you could make a compelling movie out a fairly turgid book. Hope they don't.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900273#Comment_121900273

The plot is fairly solid though and full of court intrigue and murder; even an atomic bomb or two. There's no reason why a little judicious writing couldn't make it more action packed. Maybe have the jihad still be going when the movie starts, the last holdouts still fighting the Fremen. The plot would somewhat hinge on getting Jason Momoa back mind you.

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900304#Comment_121900304

I'm fairly positive he knows that Duncan is part of the wider Dune Saga. He'll be back. Probably in the initial contract too.

("fairly positive... probably", yes, just to make clear - totally my opinion)

JustAPoorDreamer

Seen this twice in the Cinema and loved it both times.

I would really live to see a Dune series. That could be epic.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900971#Comment_121900971

I'm too lazy to check its status but there IS supposed to be a HBO series coming set centuries back and focusing on the Bene Gesserrit (sp) and their machinations.

JustAPoorDreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900998#Comment_121900998

Awe very good. Sounds cool. Will have a look see if I can find anything on it.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900971#Comment_121900971

The immaculately executed visuals and sound are the highlight of this movie, the fact that they do a good job of the narrative is a bonus.

How would that translate to a miniseries ?

JustAPoorDreamer

Well I looked it up and there is a series coming in the Autumn. Unfortunately I can still not post links 😞 .

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121901023#Comment_121901023

I'd be surprised if it is cos I'd have to imagine it got delayed by the Strike; apparently now called Dune: Prophecy.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900998#Comment_121900998

" the Bene Gesserrit (sp) and their machinations"

Would have more sex scenes than Pornhub.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882460#Comment_121882460

They are very poorly written and paced IMHO. That said I still bought and read every single one of them.

In terms of the prequels, the retconning is absolutely terrible.

In terms of the sequels, they jar with the later Frank books rather than flow from them into a congruent narrative.

I know it's not canon but my Duniverse is shaped far more by the Dune Encyclopedia than it is anything that Brian has had a hand in.

There is a compendium that includes a few short stories and the novella that was expanded into Dune, called IIRC the Road to Dune that is worth a read IMO, a whisper of Caladan seas is one of the stories that's stuck in my mind from that. I'd rather that story as the best of the Brian & Kevin collabs.

JustAPoorDreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121901058#Comment_121901058

https://screenrant.com/dune-prophecy-tv-spinoff-story-cast/#:~:text=Dune%3A%20Prophecy%2C%20originally%20called%20Dune,Jade%20Anouka%2C%20and%20Chris%20Mason.

Well there is the link anyway.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121901435#Comment_121901435

They are very poorly written and paced IMHO. That said I still bought and read every single one of them.

In terms of the prequels, the retconning is absolutely terrible.

In terms of the sequels, they jar with the later Frank books rather than flow from them into a congruent narrative.

I guess they have sold all the same if the books have continued through the years - so somebody must be enjoying them?

What was retconned out of curiosity?

I wonder if the HBO series will lift from those books then if it's also set in the past as a prequel. Presumably quality aside these events are "canon" to the lore...

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121902980#Comment_121902980

The Dune wiki has a fairly decent overview of the issues

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Discrepancies_between_Dune_novels

There's also a very decent post by a Reddit user that summarises the state of Brian & Kevin's take on the Duniverse and their insistence that their books are canon.

(Largely a [repost](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/hkoj1t/the_prequels_and_sequels_whats_wrong_with_them/fwvvw5d/?context=999).)

No, and I'll tell you a bunch of reasons why. Here's just a summary of the main things many fans think are wrong with the books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson:

1. They are [very](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/dnez5t/what_do_you_think_about_the_nonfrank_books_in_the/f5dly60/?context=3), [very](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/molarv/need_examples_of_bad_writing_in_the_prequels/gu5drpo/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [poorly](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/g9u41u/brian_herbert_exciting_press_releases_coming_soon/foxdrb8/?context=3) [written](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/f57j97/i_see_what_you_did_there_dune_the_machine_crusade/), tell inane stories, and are not worth reading in their own right, entirely aside from their connection to the Dune brand.

2. They fail to capture the substance (ideas, themes) or literary flavor of Frank Herbert's books, thereby diluting what makes the series special.

3. They directly contradict Frank Herbert's novels on an enormous number of points, some of them quite important. Whether this is because they don't know the original books well enough to maintain consistency, or they don't care about it, it shows disregard for the work.

4. They distort and misrepresent the established setting and characters.

5. They act as spoilers for the original books: along with points 3 and 4, this means reading them first detracts from the experience of reading the originals.

6. Despite all of this, Brian and Kevin have at times insisted that their books are canon, to the annoyance of fans, and have talked vaguely about having notes by Frank Herbert to bolster that claim (while also [admitting](https://www.goodreads.com/questions/2260-your-father-created-an-amazing-universe) that the books\* are not really based on those notes to any close or significant degree, and that [Frank Herbert's books are the real "canon"](https://twitter.com/DuneAuthor/status/1006225549868466176)).

7. In order to explain away some of the contradictions, one of Brian and Kevin's books, *Paul of Dune*, (nonsensically) suggests that the story told in Frank Herbert's books is not accurate, but a censored propaganda version, and that their version is the true one. Many fans consider this to be disrespectful to the originals.

If you want more detailed arguments or examples, lots of people have given them in the past.

(\* Apart from *Hunters/Sandworms of Dune*, which they say are based on FH's "Dune 7" notes, though Brian has admitted that it was more an "inspiration in a general concept" than a detailed outline, and that they invented or changed some of the main storylines and characters.)

On the other hand, I think Brian's *Dreamer of Dune* as well as *The Road to Dune* are essential for any fan who's interested in the background of how *Dune* came to be.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/hkoj1t/the_prequels_and_sequels_whats_wrong_with_them/fwvvw5d/?context=999

When the 1st of the Herbert/Anderson books was published I bought it and finished inside 2 days. The 1st one was actually ok, it's space opera Sci-fi, I wanted to support anything that lead to more Dune. Truth is that apart from 1 or 2 notable efforts, and those likely being the ones that Frank had written outlines or notes for, they don't flow or co-exist comfortably with Frank's work.

pixelburp

This weekend sees Dune at $495 million worldwide, surpassing the last movie (even if there are caveats there). I see no major releases coming that might see it drop too quickly, so it might yet settle at $600 million before it goes ... which would surely indicate a third will be greenlit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903243#Comment_121903243

That's quite a crazy summation, and quite depressing too. Sound a lot like Herbert jr. and Anderson are basically chancers who have gouged a valuable IP into the ground? Presumably both has done well off the movies causing a bump on book sales too.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907179#Comment_121907179

I haven't read the newer stuff but I know one of the major criticisms is it's very generic. You can say a lot of bad things about God Emperor but generic it ain't.

The newer stuff does things like write the Butlerian Jihad era as a cliche "Terminator style" war.

JP Liz V1

Dune 1 is on RTE1 tonight at 9.30pm

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907230#Comment_121907230

The newer stuff does things like write the Butlerian Jihad era as a cliche "Terminator style" war.

Ouch, that sucks. Presumably also involving Bob Atreides/Harkonnen/Corrino to keep that link, right?

expectationlost

was it an invasion force of the all the other old houses that appeared? would they not easily be able to wipe out the ships on the ground just like the last time?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915342#Comment_121915342

The most important aspect of Paul’s control, and his claim to power, is the line; “The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control of it”.

They let everyone know of the family atomic warheads being aimed at the sands of Arrakis, willing to destroy the spice themselves. Spice is the most valuable and important substance in the universe - enabling the guild navigators to complete faster-than-light travel - so the other houses wouldn’t dare push him into pulling the trigger. The other houses also don’t start the war - they’ve only come because the Harkonnens called upon them, claiming the Imperial Sardaukar are attacking. They arrive into the middle of this coup, and simply refuse to accept Paul’s sudden claim to the throne. He’s the one who then orders the Fremen to attack them.

ShagNastii

Loved it just as much a I loved the first. Timothée Chalamet and Zendaya are truly fantastic.

I said to my wife Chalamet is overly boyish and a bit weedy. He's by far the most commanding leading man I've seen in some time. Zendaya is a truly "bad ass" woman and it doesn't seem forced at all. The writing is just perfect.

All the characters are so brilliantly gauged. Butlers character was cool as hell. He was very OTT but I'm a bit disappointed they didn't even go further with this. Getting him earlier in the film doing even more heinous things would have been great.

Spon Farmer

I’m glad I waited until a I had time for a second look at Part 1 (which I enjoyed a lot more that at the cinema) and part 2 is excellent stuff.

I was very distracted by the Fremen eyes though. There was scenes where the blue was very bright on main characters and others were it was barely noticeable. And in crowd scenes there was definitely Freman with brown eyes. Is it a VFX goof or are not all Fremen blue eyed?

Why did Paul call on Jamis before going south? I thought having to kill him in Part One was to show that Paul’s visions are possible futures, not the future.

The director said he is considering a third film which I thought would be Dune Messiah but the ending felt like a “to be continued” .

is this where book 1 ends ?

PhiloCypher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121923354#Comment_121923354

On the eye thing I could be wrong but I think it's just the whites of the eyes that are meant to be blue . But I agree in certain scenes even that wasn't strong enough and they looked like they had normal eyes.

pixelburp

I think it also depends on how much spice you have ingested; the more you huff the bluer your eyes get, signifying dependence as it were.

KkomradeWarrior

Both films are so good.

Spon Farmer

Why does Paul choose the Princess over Chani ?

Was it because he had a vision? I don’t see the political gain since he had declared himself Emperor and any connections she had in the other houses were of no use as he was embarking on a holy war against them.

in the DUNE movie from 1984 Alia grows at an accelerated rate (or my memory is terrible). Does this happen in the book too? I know in the book that she is the one who Grandad Harkonen. Has Denis Villenvue said why he decided to cut the timespan from years to months?

Also, was Grandad Harkkonen aware that Jessica was his child ? the vision suggested he was aware but but nothing came of it.

It would have been cool if Walken and Elvis had more to do on screen but I suppose that was their part in the story.

Are Jessica and Chani the same in the books as in the film?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939870#Comment_121939870

The book is a little different on the ending with the Princess - the other houses aren't there in the book, and the finale 'deal' is a little more along the lines of horse-trading - so the Emperor's family still has a stake in the Empire through his daughter. I think that element still works well enough though. Even with the holy war on the other houses, it's a little politicking that gives Paul some element of a rightful claim to the throne. With the backing of the previous Emperor and his house he has some political legitimacy, rather than being presented as a despot staging a coup. He becomes the rightful successor as the Emperor's son in law.

Nope, Alia grows at a normal rate in the book. But she's fully adult mentally from the moment of Jessica drinking the water of life. So she's like a toddler, toddling around spouting the wisdom of many lives and freaking everyone out.

Nope, Baron Harkonnen wasn't aware of Jessica being his child.

Jessica is reasonably similar to the book. Chani is very different. She doesn't have much agency in the novel, so they used her as a way to externalise a lot of the book's internalized ideas. At first it jarred with me a little bit, just because it's a big change to see her leave, but actually I think it's a smart choice, and one of the things that further drives home the point that Herbert was trying to make. In the book there is no real drama to that moment of marrying Irulan - Paul immediately states aloud that he will marry Irulan purely for political convenience, while Chani is and remains his true partner. Kind of a mirror of how Duke Leto wasn't married to Jessica either, even though she was genuinely his love.

Spon Farmer

One last question.

In Part One, the Bene Gesserat Reverand Mother chastises Jessica for giving birth to a boy instead of a girl.

Later on Arakkis Leto mentions how Jessica gave him a son and that he is grateful for that.

Leto’s comment on its own is just, “by the way it is cool that our kid was is male” but taken with the first comment in it is obvious that Jessica did something to ensure a male heir and that Leto is acknowledging maybe how it was not something that was easily done even though he is pissed that Jessica is training Paul in “the Way”.

Did Jessica use her Bene Gessaret powers to will her first child into being male ? Or was there some medical procedure to ensure the child would be male ?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940894#Comment_121940894

Essentially yes. She can manipulate her own body and control if the child is xx or xy.

She used the same.skill to fight the poison in her initiation.