Denis Villeneuve’s Dune

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848124#Comment_121848124

Yes, but it's a slightly different beast from what I recall; more of a meditation on power and being trapped in your own myth. There's still plenty of courtroom chicanery, but you can get teh first nods towards the series getting very philsophical as it runs along.

Cordell

I would recommend all 6 books but indeed they get progressively philosophical (that is, weirder :)) and maybe a bit harder to read and follow.

TheIrishGrover

I enjoyed that. Maybe not as much as part one but that was at least partly down to my reaction to the SCALE of Part one immediately after Covid. It was a breath-taking example of what what a HUGE F*cking screen can bring.

Spoiler Warning

The bit where they they take down the ornithopter. Chani laughing running over to Paul. Then CRASH!!! it just explodes beside them.

It's been decades since I read the books but I did like how they made it more obvious how much the Bene Geserit manipulated the Fremen. It's in Part one as well so not a spoiler. It may be that I simply missed it initially (I was about 15 reading it initially and have MAYBE read it and Messiah once more in the subsequent 30+ years).

Spoiler Warning

Maybe not a spoiler but just in case: Did they alter Austin Butler's voice to sound like Stellan Skarsgard? Not only the gravelly-sounding voice but even the slight accent. I thought that was a nice touch. You definitely got the point that they were related.

My only real complaint was Christopher Walken. It kind of took you out of the moment:

I mean, you expect a bad Walken impression: "Muad... DIB???!!!"

So I really enjoyed this. I hope they get to do Messiah and am looking forward to the Bene Geserrit series.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846369#Comment_121846369

Isn't he tied to "Rendezvous with Rama"? Talk about the BEST director for the job... Might be good for everyone: He can do SCALE (Dune). He can so slow (Arrival). This would be both. Advertising execs would have the easiest sell: From the creator of 2001 and the director of Dune 1&2 and Arrival. Show scenes of the HUGE ship etc

RGARDINR

I saw it and really enjoyed it. 4 out of 5 for me. I think the last battle scene could of been 10 mins longer as just felt rushed for what it was.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848298#Comment_121848298

Yeah I recall mutterings he was attached to Rama - though the article I shared kinda hinted that Villeneuve was a bit pooped from big blockbuster shooting; so wouldn't be surprised if Dune 3 gets pushed out and Villeneuve takes a break with a small "one for me" project. He hasn't really done one like that since ... Prisoners? Sicario was a bang-bang thriller, maybe Enemy given it was predominantly straightforward. Either way he has made SciFi since Sicario onwards.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848124#Comment_121848124

I would say definitely read Messiah after the first.

Its a good completion of Paul's story arc.

johnny_ultimate

The film’s fine and improved in some regards over the original, but runs into two very personal issues for me: I don’t really care much for Villeneuve as a director, and - a more recent development - I’m not sure I really care for Dune either.

Villeneuve… it’s the same as ever for me, honestly. I just can’t warm to his films. I appreciate him as a very talented craftsman, but there’s just something sterile about his directorial style for me. Beautiful images often, but ones that keep me at an odd remove. Still think Arrival is the strongest of his big sci-fi titles, and that’s at least partially down to the source material being more intriguing IMO. I’m not going to pretend Lynch’s Dune doesn’t have a plethora of problems, but it has a potent sense of the strange and uncanny that I don’t think you get with Villeneuve’s pristine, somewhat chilly minimalism.

Dune… I dunno man. I’ve never read the book, but between the two cinematic adaptations I’m not convinced it’s something I’ll get around to. I think a lot of the storytelling is so built around lore dumps, convoluted naming conventions and prophecies that it just loses me somewhere along the way. This has more narrative momentum than the first, but it just loses me in proper nouns along the way. Some interesting ideas about religious fundamentalism, but feels like the real payoffs are still a film away. The story had a weird vibe of simultaneously being too rushed (some sequences felt like they cut off a few shots or even scenes too early) and over-egging some other stuff.

But credit where it’s due here too. I get the criticism that Timothee and Zendaya feel too much like modern teens in their performances here, but I did appreciate Chani’s character arc as the skeptic amid mounting religious fervour. Bardem as well delivered some much needed levity amid a film that very much takes itself ultra seriously even when it’s a bit ridiculous, and Austin Butler made for a fine, menacing villain. Some beautiful imagery, as expected: highlights include the floating ascent near the start of the film, and the firework illuminated hallway rendezvous. I do think Villeneuve and his team have a tendency to cut away too fast, but again he’s surrounded by an incredibly accomplished team of filmmakers. As much as Villeneuve’s films leave me cold, I can still appreciate this film’s compositional and visual direction being on a different level to the average contemporary spectacle movie.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848603#Comment_121848603

I had meant to mention how the one true innovation this film brought was showing fireworks ... that weren't fireworks. Dunno why but that little detail was something that really sold this idea that oh, it really is in this far-far future. lol

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848124#Comment_121848124

It's such a short book that it won't hurt to read it. I didn't particularly like it but it's a lot better than what comes after still.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847984#Comment_121847984

That's the thing though, you're not really remaking Messiah at that point. Like a lot of the interesting stuff from a film point of view happens in the 12 year gap. The war, the reaction of the great houses, Paul's visions coming to fruition. Messiah, as a book, brings you to the end of the story.

Like if they remake it as is, you'll have people going in expecting lots of action as the holy war starts but they get lots of talk about breeding programs, bringing people back from the dead and a bunch of politics. I don't think that film works as a fantasy/sci-fi blockbuster.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848603#Comment_121848603

'I haven't read the book but ... here's my opinion on it anyway' 😁

The two new films are very good but they're very much Villeneuve. A man who eschews dialogue for visual storytelling wherever he can. They give you a great flavour of the Dune universe, but there's so much more to it than these films.

If you forget about the films and take Dune as literary work alone, it's absolutely incredible and IMO one of the greatest Sci fi stories ever written. It's essential Sci Fi reading.

You can in no way form an opinion on the book series from these films as much as you could from the David Lynch film. Definitely give it a read sometime when you can.

johnny_ultimate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848787#Comment_121848787

Honestly I wish this film had less dialogue at times 😅

Obviously can’t comment on the book, but just based on the films I’m not super into some of the storytelling ideas being put forward. Whereas I was intrigued enough by the ideas in Arrival that I chased up Ted Chiang’s stories and thought they were incredible.

Never say never though - perhaps one of these years I’ll tackle Herbert’s book, and wouldn’t at all be surprised if the films can only go so far in adapting it. Though I know from reputation that the quality swiftly falls off a cliff after Messiah!

kerplun k

its an unmitigated masterpiece for me. I never would have imagined Dune would be up there with Star Wars, or LOTR, but here we are, 1 film away from bookending an epic tale over a trilogy of films.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848905#Comment_121848905

Indeed the films only go so far. He did an excellent job of adapting the book into films that worked for both readers and non-readers, but if you haven't read the book you are missing out, a lot more will make more sense if you know the backstory.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki_3px1wQio

Alternate cut...... [PAC]

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851642#Comment_121851642

It is ... quite something how well that fits into the vibe of Lynch's Dune!

I still maintain a fondness for that 80s version, even if its plot and faithfulness to the book was threadbare, it was a fabulous fever dream of a thing.

And it was about as close as we're likely to get to seeing a Navigator on the big screen; methinks Villeneuve's version will stay clear of those (not sure if we maybe saw them in part 1, at the start, behind the Emperor's spokesperson).

o1s1n

I have no shame in saying I absolutely love Lynch's Dune. Between the soundtrack, set design and cast it definitely has a lot going for it. After watching almost six hours of Villeneuve's Dune I'm also amazed Lynch managed to fit so much of the story into under two and a half hours.

I think there's actually a great film in there somewhere that Lynch could bring out if he were to do a properly edited directors cut. (not that he'd ever go anywhere near it! 😥)

johnny_ultimate

Yeah I saw Lynch’s Dune in the cinema a few years ago and it felt like a fever dream. So loud and odd. It’s all over the gaff narratively, but it’s very similar to this movie - to the point I got Deja vu as it hits so many similar scenes and narrative beats. This one just has space to actually develop scenes and ideas, whereas that crams everything into an unwieldy whole 😅

But as far as production design goes, there’s something viscerally weird about Lynch’s Dune, which the new version loses in favour of narrative coherency.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851918#Comment_121851918

His take on "the voice" as the trigger to fire Wielding guns was a massive mistake on his part. That and his panto Harkonnen's (not that Villeneuve isnt guilty of similar) made the movie look a bit silly. He also doesn't really tackle the deeper themes of Dune.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851973#Comment_121851973

Oh it's a completely superficial treatment of the story, and as you said the Weirding Modules was an odd choice, but it's a film whose appeal lies solely in its baroque, utterly sensual aesthetic. In some ways it front-loaded the more philsophhical, surrealist nature of the later novels.

Notable that the Westwood Studios video-game adaptations of Dune would use the 1984 film's aesthetic as its cue; man I do nostalgically miss those days of FMV cut-scenes, especially in the RTS genre. Commander Worf as Duke Atreides? Yes please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKrkmui9H3k

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851995#Comment_121851995

The art direction was great and you can see Villeneuve borrowed a fair bit from it too.

My introduction to Dune was Dune 2: Battle for Arrakis. I still say "battle of Arrakis" in my head every time I hear someone talk about Dune pt.II

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848454#Comment_121848454

With Villeneuve reportedly story boarding Dune since his teens, I'd hardly think you could say it wasn't for him.

El Duda

Dune: Part Two – 8.5/10

I think there are three levels on which one can enjoy this film:

1. As a piece of narrative story-telling. Being into the characters and being emotionally invested

2. As a piece of world building and atmosphere driven sci-fi

3. As a cinematic spectacle and shining example of progressive technical achievement

For me, it’s almost entirely 2 & 3. 

I’m shocked by how much George Lucas plagiarised the original novel(s). Star Wars is basically this but with a few specifics tweaked. The reason I bring this up as I think it is a great comparison in terms of characters and how much they resonate with the audience. Star Wars hit every one of the three levels I set out, especially number 1. You just believe the characters and you root for the rebellion from start to finish. When you find out that Vader is Luke’s Father you FEEL the impact etc…

Dune doesn’t reach that level at all imo. I have a great admiration for Timothée Chalamet, but I can’t help but feel like I want him to be a better actor than he is. When I’m watching Dune, I’m not seeing Paul Atreides. I’m seeing Timothée Chalamet. Instead of rooting for Paul and his character within the Dune story, I’m rooting for Timothée and hoping he proves his acting chops. When I say that Rebecca Ferguson is the best thing in these films, I mean the actor rather than the character of Lady Jessica.  

Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy jumped into my mind immediately after seeing it. Much like LOTR, Dune is a film that will be loved by many but despised by a vocal minority. It’s the sort of production that doesn’t come along very often. It will have huge longevity and its own loyal fandom who will utterly adore everything Dune related. I’ve been to the cinema over 100 times in the last 2 years (since it opened) and I’ve not seen anything like this. Despite that lack of ‘level 1’ enjoyment, it still resonated with me for a day or so afterwards. The world building and level of spectacle on show is just way too immense. I’m fully expecting my second viewing in iMax to blow my bloody socks off. 

Where most are enthralled by the spectacle, others won’t be able to get past their lack of connection to the story. Which is understandable. To not feel for the characters shows that there’s is something that isn’t working, and no amount of technical wizardry is going to solve that. 

Perhaps with further viewings and a deeper understanding of some of the rushed plot points, I will eventually connect with the story a bit more, but for now 2 out of 3 is more than enough for me.

pixelburp

Yet again (IIRC), Villeneuve has said there won't be a directors cut at all (not that that has stopped studios from pushing out "alternate" cuts under directors' noses), but interestingly cut scenes involve Tim Blake Nelson, who had been announced as cast but disappeared from the theatrical cut - no clue who he was meant to play - and Stephen McKinley Henderson, who remained a character in the back half of the book.

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/dune-2-cut-actors-deleted-scenes-released-stephen-mckinley-henderson-1235929610/

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854135#Comment_121854135

Can totally see Tim Blake Nelson as Hasimir Fenring. Had he and McKinley both been kept in the cut? The aftermath of the Paul V Feyd fight would have drawn more out of Walken.

I'd also hazard that had McKinley been kept in the cut? That much more could have been made of Atriedes honour and fealty, they care for their own.

kerplun k

went again today with my wife. I very rarely rewatch a film I’ve already seen and the last time I took a repeated trip to the cinema was The fellowship of the Ring. But I jumped at the chance to see again. It’s glorious. That opening line “he who controls the spice controls the universe”, sang in those vocals… man, it gave me goosebumps. It’s like a battle cry. It’s peak cinema.

Timmy C is so perfect as Paul, he’s exactly that charismatic type you genuinely believe in. For the 2nd time I walked out of the movie and had to remind myself this guy isn’t a protagonist. We’ll be looking back in years to come wondering how this film packed in so much talent. Butler, Chalamet, Zendaya, Pugh, Taylor-Joy… every one of them will be huge.

In terms of sequels, I think it’s up there with The Dark knight and Godfather Part 2.

buried

Enjoyed it and liked the fact it got a bit more weirder than the first one. But some of the story progression is a bit all over the shop and also highly rushed. For example, too much time was spent making an eegit out of Bardem's character it was hard to take his few non-eegity scenes seriously at all. Looks amazing and all that but the story progression let it down a good bit. I get they have to try to fit all the stuff in from the books and nobody really wants to be looking at a desert for 5 hours, so there is that. Been hearing all this noise from the likes of Christopher Nolan, putting this on par with "The Empire Strikes Back" though, Shtap, shtap, shtap.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859322#Comment_121859322

Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are probably out there on their own with the general public but Dune will certainly be in the level down. I'm talking about Terminator, Alien or Independence Day level following.

RoboRat

I read the first 3 books - are the last 3 worth reading? I needed a break as I read the first 3 one after another and i was going spice mad ;-p