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The Jimbo Slice memorial thread, feat Nate Dogg - The new Off Topic thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94


    Well it's a harder progression. I'd imagine that if you can do this, you've probably maxed out the weight on the leg extension machine. Much like how a nordic curl offers more resistance than most leg curl machines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,034 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    But if you fail other exercises, the movement reverses, or you end the eccentric in a stable position, or you can let go.

    This move seams to me a combination of an unstable eccentric, where you can’t let go, with the leverage getting progressively harder. Leg extension feels like a better choice.


    Also thinker was unlucky that it didn’t just collapse into a flexed knee position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94


    If you're about to fail the rep, maybe you can just bend your hips and squat back up? I do see an argument for just doing the version in the other video where, it might be easier to bail on a failed rep. I've never tried the version in the injury video if I'm being honest.

    Ultimately any exercise can be dangerous if it's loaded beyond your ability. The issue with an exercise like the bodyweight leg extension is that it starts with a heavy eccentric lower, with your knee at a big mechanical disadvantage. This makes it potentially a good tool for someone with strong quads trying to make them even stronger. But I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner, just like I wouldn't have a beginner try 100kg on their first bench session.



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,034 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    I've never done it either, so this speculation. But I don't think you can just bend at the hips and bail quickly or safely. The load is somewhat resisting you. And sure, any move can be overloaded. But a supermax bench pins you in the bottom position with the normal ROM. The above is more like super max chest flys eccentrics on a flat bench. At some point 3/4s of the way through it pulls you into hyperextension before you can drop it.

    The other reason why I think the above is bad is the position of the lower leg. His whole weight is levering on the mid point of his calf. It feels like that might separate the knee a bit. I think that may be what happen actually. As if the load was jsut too much for his quads, I'd have thought the knee flexes (like a too heavy leg extension). But this looked like ACL went.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94


    Yeah fair points about the leverage if you fail, but I just think the injury risk is minimal if you're someone who is strong enough to treat this as a high rep accessory, staying away from failure. Like if you read his progression, I think it's not all that surprising how this happened:

    "So I decide to challenge myself a little more on these sissy squats. first I did few regular, too easy. Then I decide to lean backwards, still too easy. Then I start to add some weights on my chest, 10reps with 5kg, 8reps with 10kg, 5reps with 15kg, and 3 singles with 20kg, on my fourth repetisjon my left knee gave up."

    He said it was a dislocated knee and a partial ACL tear. You can see the guy's profile here: https://www.instagram.com/konrad.koziol/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,034 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    I think the specific injury might indicate knee separation thing I mentioned.

    If it was a strength/load issue. You’d expect to see a muscle/tendon fail. But the acl blowing means the knees must have pulled into grimness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ Black Sheep


    There's another horrible video going around of someone failing thumb push-ups. One or both thumbs suddenly gives way laterally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭ silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭ JayRoc




  • Registered Users Posts: 37,034 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Well it’s hardly a secret. The list of young bodybuilders dying from heart attacks or organ failure is grim.

    Mike Matarazzo - 48

    Nasser El Sonbaty - 47

    Anthony D’Arezzo - 44

    Rich Piana - 45

    Scott Milne - 45

    Greg Kovacs - 44

    Aleksandar Srdoc - 35

    Daniele Seccarecci - 33

    Andreas Münzer - 31

    Daniel Alexander - 29

    Dallas McCarver - 26

    Zyzz - 22

    Oli Cooney - 20




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭ JayRoc


    Steroids might be a factor, sure. They might not. I don't know and neither does anyone else here.


    That's all I'm saying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭ Dtp1979


    John Meadows, although I think he had an underlying issue



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ Black Sheep


    John Meadows dying is a real shame, he seems to have been one of those guys who was becoming iconic as a coach. A big part of it was his friendly personality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭ the baby bull elephant



    Actually just bought one of his cheaper programmes this weekend. Never run a proper bodybuilding one before so looking forward to it. He did seem like a really good guy and his band programme was absolutely brilliant for me during lockdown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94



    There's definitely a double standard in how deaths in strength sports are treated vs other ones. Significant number of footballers have died from cardiac events over the years. Steroid abuse probably does play a significant role for bodybuilding deaths, but there are also probably some that are just tragedies of young men dying before their time. Heart disease is the number one killer in western world, regardless if you're an athlete or not.

    https://voi.id/en/sports/58761/list-of-footballers-who-collapsed-due-to-heart-disease-christian-eriksen-fabrice-muamba-to-eri-irianto



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,034 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Well, we don’t know that it wasn’t aliens, evil spirits, or a simulation inside the matrix.

    But at the same time, many of the above had autopsies that showed all sorts of issues associated with hormone abuse - enlarged organs, leiver failure etc. So, lets say we can make some pretty strong estimates of why it happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭ silverharp


    I saw something that in an American study , Baseball had the best longevity and professional wrestling had the worst , worse then being a typical couch surfing American. The additional variables include recreational drugs, extreme eating and dieting, carrying sheer excess bulk over decades cant be good. Natty competition bodybuilding would most likely eat into longevity gains

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ Black Sheep


    It's all relative, but compared to to powerlifting, natural bodybuilding is pretty sustainable in training terms. There's a reason so many powerlifters transition to bodybuilding or begin to incorporate more and more of it into their training. Not even sure the dieting for competition is a negative, in the great scheme of things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ Black Sheep


    I've been dithering about really going all in on a pure bodybuilding programme for a few months. Before this I've always gone no further that what people would consider powerbuilding i.e My training was powerlifting but with lots of hypertrophy focused accessories. A few weeks ago I decided I would stop trying to ride two horses at once and go all-in on a bodypart split, high intensity approach. Not a John Meadows but with Paul Carter who, funnily enough, was a close friend of Meadows'.

    So anyway, I've just finished a neural phase of a few weeks where I've deliberately de-trained to a degree. Next week moving on to do some work.

    Still very conflicted about the whole thing, I think at this point I could programme the conjugate powerbuilding I was doing in my sleep, and I knew exactly what was going on, and I was getting results. The question now is will the next few months be a bust and I'll move back to what I was doing. I guess it's having the confidence to be prepared to waste that time to see if this works out for me.

    If I retained or improved aesthetics... Hard shorter workouts (On average down from 80 minutes to 50 minutes so far) and put less pressure on passive structures / reduced likelihood of injuries it would be worthwhile even if my top end strength tanked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94



    Where competition begins, health ends. Elite sport and health don't go together as a general rule. Haven't heard that baseball one before.

    As far as wrestling (assuming you mean WWE etc.) you have to take into account that many of those guys are abusing a lot more than just steroids. Massive amount of opiate abuse to deal with pain, sleeping pills, cocaine, etc. Steroids are just one factor, albeit an important one - but they're used and abused across the board in plenty of sports.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭ silverharp


    Powerlifting at the highest level is worse Im sure, you cant be healthy above ~130KG, I remember a quip from somewhere that if you wanted to make bodybuilding "safe" you would have a weight limit of ~90KG and body fat would need to be pegged at 10% or above but it would kill the business model in the same way reducing F1 to motorway speeds would kill racing.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ Black Sheep


    I don't really have an interest in contemporary bodybuilding as a sport - but its training methods have a wide application for the general training population and in other strength sports. Bodybuilding has gotten such a beating over the years online, in print and in the blogs, and yet it transpires that a lot of bodybuilder bro-science actually is very valid, from exercise selection through to programming choices around frequency, intensity, rep and set structures etc.

    It is interesting though, that people training various different ways admire Dorian Yates and the guys that have come after him in terms of what they achieved, in terms of packing on sheer muscle in absolute terms... But not many people actually aspire to look like that. Consistently if you ask people, even some bodybuilders from what I can see, who had the best physique they'll go decades back and talk about the likes of Mike Mentzer... I know this is something that is obviously the subject of a lot of debate and discussion within the sport too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94


    To be fair, we don't really have the research to assert that just being heavy in and of itself is detrimental. Research showing weight as an issue is almost always on people who are obese and non-exercisers. From a theoretical point of view, makes sense that heart would be under more stress even if the added weight is from muscle. But we also know that being overweight and fit can be healthier than lean with poor cardiovascular fitness ('fat but fit' phenomenon).

    I think best recommendation for health is to get strong but keep bodyfat at healthy levels and engage in cardiovacular exercise. And avoid 'special supplements'.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    I don’t think steroids are the biggest issue at all. It’s the other PEDs that bodybuilders take that are far more dangerous. I’m think of HGH, insulin and diuretics. Plus whatever they take to get really cut, I assume clenbuterol or some such


    The amount of muscle they carry is stressful but how quickly they cut fat and dry out for competition is even more stressful on the body. HGH doesn’t just grow muscle it also enlarged organs.


    Bodybuilding hasn’t been a healthy sport since the 70s when d Bol first arrived and started destroying livers

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    I’ve been fat but fit for, sometimes less fat, for the last 20 years. My blood levels are a constant amazement to my doctors. Cholesterol and triglycerides are bang on. Blood pressure is fine.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭ silverharp


    we are talking about a fairly rarified group of people, if I clocked everyone I had seen at my gym for a year I wouldnt see anyone this would apply to

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭ JayRoc




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭ Cill94


    There’s nobody in your gym who’s 90kg and 10-15% body fat? Thete are swathes of natural bodybuilders and powerlifters who fall into this category. Even some recreational crossfitters.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    I see people like that in every gym I’ve been in.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭ silverharp


    lol, no there is nobody who is 5% BF or who is over 130 or 140KG, 10%-15% is a safe range, below 10% people are most likely doing something that is unsustainable or using concoctions of one sort or another

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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