Asking grown children to pay for housekeeping

rock22

Mister Jingles wrote: »

Spot on !

Unfortunately though there are many people in Ireland that are still mentally living back in them days and some arent even shy in admitting it either.

I have to agree. Using words like 'subsidising' in relation to a child indicates a strange attitude to parenthood. Do parents not understand that they have obligations to their children.?

If my daughter had a child and was trying to find a place to rent with her boyfriend i would be helping them , not crippling her with more demands.

Get her to help around the house, maybe even explain that it is a financial burden. But try to help her get her own place and on her own two feet. That she still needs this help at 24 rather than 18 is not really relevant.

SarahMollie

rock22 wrote: »

I have to agree. Using words like 'subsidising' in relation to a child indicates a strange attitude to parenthood. Do parents not understand that they have obligations to their children.?

If my daughter had a child and was trying to find a place to rent with her boyfriend i would be helping them , not crippling her with more demands.

Get her to help around the house, maybe even explain that it is a financial burden. But try to help her get her own place and on her own two feet. That she still needs this help at 24 rather than 18 is not really relevant.

People have obligations to their children until they turn 18/finish full time education.

After that, their obligation should be to make sure that these adults have the life skills and independence and confidence to stand on their own two feet and make their own way in the world. This includes ensuring they understand how much being an adult costs and the principal that everyone should pay their own way.

Anything else is just infantilizing them and does no long term good.

Big Bag of Chips

rock22 wrote: »

If my daughter had a child and was trying to find a place to rent with her boyfriend i would be helping them , not crippling her with more demands.

Asking for her to contribute €50 a week to the cost of feeding and sheltering her and her child is hardly "crippling" her! I'd be ashamed to think that my choices/demands, as a 24 year old working mother were crippling my parents. Ashamed.

That she still needs this help at 24 rather than 18 is not really relevant.

It is though. At 18 a 'child' is most likely in school or college and not really likely to have the means to provide for themselves to any great degree. A 24 year old adult, working full time should be expected to contribute to their own living costs. The man is not looking for market rent + utilities. He's asking for a contribution from the working adults who live in the house to the food they eat and the utilities they use.

Some families might be able to afford to support working adults until they're nearly 30. Not every family can. (Although most families even if they take a contribution, are in fact supporting their children by having them live at home for a very small fraction of the cost it would be to live somewhere else). There's a difference between 'supporting' and 'providing for'. The OP is providing for his children. To the point where he no longer has anything left in reserve for a rainy day. And if parents have exhausted all savings and available finances to provide for their children to go to college then of course those 'children' should contribute to their costs when they start earning.

It would seem your children have more disposable income than you do, OP, because you are picking up their tabs for all their necessities while they spend their money on their discretionaries. If that works for some families, that's their business and I wish them well. If it's not working for your family, then of course you are right to discuss it and look for changes.

El_Duderino 09

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

It is though. At 18 a 'child' is most likely in school or college and not really likely to have the means to provide for themselves to any great degree. A 24 year old adult, working full time should be expected to contribute to their own living costs. The man is not looking for market rent + utilities. He's asking for a contribution from the working adults who live in the house to the food they eat and the utilities they use.

More than they it sounds like the OP is looking for acknowledgement and some appreciation for the hard work and sacrifices he has made. At some point children transition to being independent and that process is delayed because of the lovely home the OP is providing free of charge/responsibility up to this point.

The OP could cut the cord completely and stand over their record to date as a hard-working, great provider. His children could appreciate that fact and offer to contribute something so the OP can enjoy them self once in a while.

infogiver

SarahMollie wrote: »

I disagree wtih this too. It shouldnt be about the parents and their needs/wants, it should be all about the adult children and their development.

I have friends who's parents actively discouraged them from moving out. It was nothing to do with money, and they werent asked to contribute, the parents simply wanted them at home. This is stiffing your children IMO.

In my experience, those who stayed at home that bit too long were stuck in a delayed adolescence. They didnt save any more money than those of us who were renting, they simply flittered it away. I often found them to be a bit naive in terms of money and looking after their own affairs. Not a good look on someone who is supposed to be an adult.

I realise some families will have particular circumstances and not everyone can afford rent in their early 20's due to current rent levels, but the principal of an adult paying towards their own upkeep is really important for the individuals own development, and being too soft or simply wanting them to stay at home for company or whatever is actually doing the child a disservice.

I agree entirely. When you bring your baby home from the hospital you accept that there is going to be a lot of worry and stress and concern as well as all the joy
Some parents don't accept this at all and in order to protect themselves from sleepless nights fight to prevent their children from progressing naturally all along the stages to making the break and moving out.
They want to be excused from the fear that grips you when your child doesn't answer their phone for a few hours etc and they interfere with romantic relationships and work situations instead of letting the child learn from experience

witchgirl26

I was talking to my mam about this the other day & her response was that a parents job is to turn their tiny little baby into a functioning adult.

If they're constantly being looked after by mammy & daddy & don't have to stand on their own two feet for anything then how will they be completely functioning adults? I'm not saying turfing them out is an answer but responsibilities and understanding that it's not all give, give, give from the parents and that they have to give back too.

scarepanda

When my little one is of age to be working etc, unless we're very very strapped for money, we won't be asking her for any financial contributions to the household. If she does end up living with us as an adult, as she gets on her feet, I would hope we would be in a situation to help her as much as we possibly could.
I don't understand the hardball mentality 'they need to learn to be financially responsible so they have to pay up' or 'living away from home will cost them more'. Surely your job as a parent from the time they are born is to show them how to be financially responsible and responsible in life in general? We never had to pay up, but my parents showed us how up be responsible for money from the time we could walk. My Mam in particular would give us money to run into the shop to get a loaf of bread and ask for the change back, even if it was only a couple of pence. We slag her about it now, but it did help us learn the value of money. When I got my first phone at 13 the deal was I had to buy it myself and buy my own credit etc, they have never paid for those expenses. I'm on my fourth car and have never had to take out a loan for them, iv always had enough savings. When I was in college in Ireland I worked my ass off to support myself, granted I was still living at home, but never asked my parents for any additional money. The only time they have helped me financially was when I was in college abroad and they paid for my rent. When I tried setting up a repayment plan we had an arguement because they wouldn't accept the money from me. They saw it that as my parents it was their responsibility to help me get started in life. They have also said numerous times that if we ever need financial help to go to them and they would do what they can for myself and my partner (especially for help with deposit for mortgage - it's lovely to have the offer, but we never intend on taking them up on it). They are not well off by any means, but saved hard, even when in reality they couldn't afford it.

SarahMollie

scarepanda wrote: »

When my little one is of age to be working etc, unless we're very very strapped for money, we won't be asking her for any financial contributions to the household. If she does end up living with us as an adult, as she gets on her feet, I would hope we would be in a situation to help her as much as we possibly could.
I don't understand the hardball mentality 'they need to learn to be financially responsible so they have to pay up' or 'living away from home will cost them more'. Surely your job as a parent from the time they are born is to show them how to be financially responsible and responsible in life in general? We never had to pay up, but my parents showed us how up be responsible for money from the time we could walk. My Mam in particular would give us money to run into the shop to get a loaf of bread and ask for the change back, even if it was only a couple of pence. We slag her about it now, but it did help us learn the value of money. When I got my first phone at 13 the deal was I had to buy it myself and buy my own credit etc, they have never paid for those expenses. I'm on my fourth car and have never had to take out a loan for them, iv always had enough savings. When I was in college in Ireland I worked my ass off to support myself, granted I was still living at home, but never asked my parents for any additional money. The only time they have helped me financially was when I was in college abroad and they paid for my rent. When I tried setting up a repayment plan we had an arguement because they wouldn't accept the money from me. They saw it that as my parents it was their responsibility to help me get started in life. They have also said numerous times that if we ever need financial help to go to them and they would do what they can for myself and my partner (especially for help with deposit for mortgage - it's lovely to have the offer, but we never intend on taking them up on it). They are not well off by any means, but saved hard, even when in reality they couldn't afford it.

Almost all of the examples that you've given are for a child who is either underage or still in education. My parents gave me the same level of support, actually more probably because I'm an only child so I was fairly indulged in terms of hobbies etc, and was given everything I needed to excel at education. I had an extremely nice life.

That doesn't mean that they weren't also completely right to transition me, so to speak, into adulthood by giving me a few responsibilities, and ultimately putting in place a plan to move out. I honestly believe that its because of this and not in spite of it, that I have become a fully functional adult instead of a 30 something child/adult hybrid, still living at home with my mammy doing my washing. I still have an extremely nice life, but now its all self funded.

No ones advocating making their childrens lives extremely difficult, asking for a small % of their income so that they have experience of paying their way is a very effective way of teaching young adults the value of money and gently introducing them to the concept of real life, grown up costs.

Big Bag of Chips

scarepanda wrote: »

When I was in college in Ireland I worked my ass off to support myself, granted I was still living at home, but never asked my parents for any additional money.

Support yourself in what way? Did you pay all your registration fees? Buy your own food while you lived at home? Did you buy all the things necessary to do your own washing and then do it? Paid for the electricity to heat the water for your showers? Bought oil/gas for the heating? Fuel for the fire?

I think it is only when we become parents ourselves we realise how much our parents have sacrificed and supported us through our lives. Living at home, while "working your ass off to support yourself" is a bit of a paradox if you are not handing up money at home. Just because you're not getting "pocket money" from your parents, doesn't mean you're supporting yourself.

And I'd imagine that's how the OP's children see it too. They probably feel they are "supporting themselves" in the sense that they are not looking for "additional money" from their parents but are forgetting everything their parents are providing for them, that any self respecting earning adult should be providing for themselves.

Edit: the OP has done everything for his children that your parents did for you. But now his children are adults. Still living at home,,showing no signs of becoming independent and resenting the fact that they may, as earning adults be asked to contribute to their living costs. You appreciate everything your parents have provided for you and offered you. The OP's children seem to expect it and take it for granted.

Electric Sheep

I think a lot of Irish parents use the "live at home for free" thing as a way of keeping their adult offspring living in their parents house for as long as possible because they can't face the idea of their kids growing up and not needing them.

currants

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I think a lot of Irish parents use the "live at home for free" thing as a way of keeping their adult offspring living in their parents house for as long as possible because they can't face the idea of their kids growing up and not needing them.

Yes, its suffocating and unhealthy for both parties. Keeping close emotional bonds shouldn't rely on financial support. This poor man is doing shift work in his 50's to support three perfectly healthy, highly educated adults. He should be buying his grandchild wendy houses and swings, not being left to put food in her mouth and a roof over her head when her mother is working and earning.
What happens if this man has a health crisis and cant work any longer? this leeching lifestyle is unfair to him and unsustainable for them all. If you are wealthy and can spare it I could understand it a bit better but would still think that level of dependancy in some one who is a parent themselves is pathetic. This man is not very wealthy, he's struggling, its shocking how callously his kids are behaving.

scarepanda

@sarahmollie, after I finished college I moved out pretty much as soon as I found work. But my brother lived at home for a good few years and the same thing applied to him. When we lived at home we did help out around the house even if we didn't contribute financially I.e giving up a set amount each week. My brother in particular, because he lived at home for so long would have bought/paid for stuff instead of paying 'rent'. Financially we saved and saved and my parents knew that and is what they ultimately wanted. Also, some people here are saying the the ops son/daughter still in college should be paying up so my examples of when I was in school/college still stand.

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

Support yourself in what way? 1) Did you pay all your registration fees? 2) Buy your own food while you lived at home? 3) Did you buy all the things necessary to do your own washing and then do it? 4) Paid for the electricity to heat the water for your showers? 5)Bought oil/gas for the heating? 6) Fuel for the fire?

1) all college related expenses were paid by me.
2) yes, I was a particularly fussy eater back in the day so used to buy and cook my own food
3) ha, if you only knew my mother! But to answer your question, no I didn't. But the reason I didn't do it wasn't because i was lazy or not arsed or taking advantage of my mother, it was to do with the dynamics of the household and my mother's role as housewife and being a typical Irish Mammy. Do you really think having to buy a box of washing powder will make a young person financially responsible?
4) no, that was part of living at home in my experience.
5) no oil or gas in the house
6) didn't pay for the turf, but did spend weeks in the bog turning, stacking and bringing home the turf for my parents and grandparents each year.

Look, I'm not saying my parents didn't make life as easy as possible for me, they did in whatever way they could, nor am I saying that they didn't Sacrifice anything to do that, especially when we were very young. What I am saying is that playing hardball when your child turns 18 doesn't make sense to me. My parents didn't do that. They thought us from a very early age how to be responsible, both financially and as an adult. They supported myself and my brother in whatever way they could, and still do to this day, despite neither of us living at home or needing financial help. Does that mean that were not financially responsible? Or don't value money as adults? Or understand how expensive it is to live outside the home? No it doesn't, we are both financially responsible, certainly value money and were never under any illusions as to how expensive renting and all that goes with it is - we didn't just get handed stuff and saw our parents struggle through when we were young.

Look, who's to say what approach is right? The way my parents reared us and how they treated us as young adults worked in my family. I would hope that I can teach my daughter the same lessons I was thought and afford her the same advantages as I was afforded when the time comes. That's just my opinion, I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

scarepanda

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

I think it is only when we become parents ourselves we realise how much our parents have sacrificed and supported us through our lives. Living at home, while "working your ass off to support yourself" is a bit of a paradox if you are not handing up money at home. Just because you're not getting "pocket money" from your parents, doesn't mean you're supporting yourself.

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

And I'd imagine that's how the OP's children see it too. They probably feel they are "supporting themselves" in the sense that they are not looking for "additional money" from their parents but are forgetting everything their parents are providing for them, that any self respecting earning adult should be providing for themselves.

Look we never got pocket money growing up - Earned everything we had even as children. Nothing was handed to us because my parents couldn't afford it. I supported myself in every way with the exception of rent/electricity bills from the time I got my first job at 13. Even if we wanted to pay rent or contribute to the household financially, our parents wouldn't take it. What they wanted for us was to save that money ourselves, understand how hard we had to work to save it and also how easy it was to spend it to.
I am a parent now and I am thinking in parent mode how I hope I'll be able to approach helping my daughter transition from child to adulthood when the time comes.

Big Bag of Chips

I don't think anyone is suggesting playing hardball once a child turns 18! Have you read the OP and his other posts? He has a 24 year old daughter, with a child, working and living at home and giving him abuse for suggesting she contributes €50 a week to the household costs. That is who we are replying to. And that is the only scenario that is relevant to this (his) thread.

groovyg

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting playing hardball once a child turns 18! Have you read the OP and his other posts? He has a 24 year old daughter, with a child, working and living at home and giving him abuse for suggesting she contributes €50 a week to the household costs. That is who we are replying to. And that is the only scenario that is relevant to this (his) thread.

The 24 year old whose child the Ops wife looked after while she went back to college to complete her final year and is now giving the dad abuse for asking for a contribution to live at home!! sorry but no matter how little she is earning I think its just plain ignorant and selfish that she doesn't want to contribute anything to the house or her folks who have provided alot for her when she needed them.

noel100 wrote: »

The daughter with child was getting money I don't know if she still is.
Her and boyfriend(father) want to rent but can't afford to. My wife minded her child while she finished her last year college as both were at college. They are slowly getting it together but has been great cost financialy and emotionally.

scarepanda

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

I don't think anyone is suggesting playing hardball once a child turns 18! Have you read the OP and his other posts? He has a 24 year old daughter, with a child, working and living at home and giving him abuse for suggesting she contributes €50 a week to the household costs. That is who we are replying to. And that is the only scenario that is relevant to this (his) thread.

I did read the OP. His eldest child should certainly find herself her own home - forget about paying up, just get her own home. She was responsible enough to have a child, she should provide for it as well. I'm not disputing this. But the youngest is still in college and shouldn't 'have to' in my opinion.
My response is to the general theme these threads take. They always knock people who's parents didn't ask them to pay up. That they would be 'ashamed' as young adults not to be contributing, that young adults that don't don't have any financial awareness. The point to my posts is that that's not always the way and that it's not fair to label everyone in the same way. The arrangement with my parents and the way they thought us to be financially responsible seems to be different to most others it seems.
It is a different situation if you have an older adult scratching their arse from one end of the year to the next expecting everything to be handed to them. However these type of threads are usually about young adults 18-25ish still trying to get started in life, finish school/college, getting their career going etc.

currants

scarepanda wrote: »

They always knock people who's parents didn't ask them to pay up. That they would be 'ashamed' as young adults not to be contributing, that young adults that don't don't have any financial awareness. The point to my posts is that that's not always the way and that it's not fair to label everyone in the same way. The arrangement with my parents and the way they thought us to be financially responsible seems to be different to most others it seems.
It is a different situation if you have an older adult scratching their arse from one end of the year to the next expecting everything to be handed to them. However these type of threads are usually about young adults 18-25ish still trying to get started in life, finish school/college, getting their career going etc.

Nobody said they should be ashamed of not contributing, lots of people said they should be ashamed of abusing a man who is struggling financially and asks them to contribute. I don't imagine that you would have verbally abused your parents if they had needed you to pay them housekeeping. Unfortunately the 18-25 yr olds who never pay housekeeping and don't appreciate their good fortunehave a tendency to turn into older adults who do sit about scratching their arse and expecting everything to be handed to them.
The youngest is repeating a subject at the OPs expense and therefore has plenty of time to earn a few quid to help him out, which she has agreed to. The work experience will stand to her after graduation also.

LegacyUser

You have worked hard over the past few years to support your children. You did shift work to put them through college. At this stage you have 3 adults living in your house. 2 of them are working full time and one of them has a baby.

At this stage you need to sit them down and tell that you no longer in a position to maintain 5 adults on your salary.

Show them the food bill, the esb, oil/gas bill, tv, phone and broadband bill. Show them what the rent is in a shared house near you on daft. Tell them unless you get a €100 a week from each of them they can move out. The girl with the child should be down on her knees to get all her food, bills and have a free baby sitting service for €100 a week.

The reality is you have been using you money to pay for you children education up to now. I am sure you have hardly any savings left and that your house might need some jobs doing to it.

I would sit down with the mother of the child and her boyfriend and ask them when are they planning to leave your home. I would just let her and him know that long term they are not going to be staying with you. You could say something like I plan to sell this house in a few years and buy somewhere smaller so we have some extra money when I retire.

I would also ask the other child who is working when they plan to move out.

Your not been mean doing this but you have to think of your own life long term. You don't want 3 adults living with you long term along with a child that one of them has.
At this stage you might like to do some work on your house, have a holiday or build up your savings again so you can have a nice retirement.

Big Bag of Chips

Your parents and what they did for you wouldn't be unique scarepanda. My parents did similar. I moved out of home at 21, having worked part time since 16 and never handed a penny towards the household. By 23 I had a mortgage and owned a house, outright, mortgage free before I was 30!

My parents weren't/aren't wealthy but they provided for and supported 5 children through school, college etc. Like your parents we are regularly offered money if we need it. Some of my siblings have needed money at different times, some of us are fortunate enough to not need it. But I know without question if I asked for money for something, it would be given without hesitation. It's what parents do. But, in turn, what 'children' are supposed to do is grow up and become independent, and not sponge of their parents good nature for years after they should be making their own way.

scarepanda

currants wrote:

Nobody said they should be ashamed of not contributing, lots of people said they should be ashamed of abusing a man who is struggling financially and asks them to contribute. I don't imagine that you would have verbally abused your parents if they had needed you to pay them housekeeping. Unfortunately the 18-25 yr olds who never pay housekeeping and don't appreciate their good fortunehave a tendency to turn into older adults who do sit about scratching their arse and expecting everything to be handed to them. The youngest is repeating a subject at the OPs expense and therefore has plenty of time to earn a few quid to help him out, which she has agreed to. The work experience will stand to her after graduation also.

Your right, I wouldn't have. I also wouldn't have to be asked to contribute if I knew my parents were struggling, especially if I was living at home.
Lots of people have said that they would be ashamed irrespective of their parents financial situation of not paying while living at home.
I agree with you to an extent the type of people who do end up scratching their arses, but surley this is something that should be dealt with before they turn 18/start working? People I know like this have always like it because they got handed everything even when young. It didn't just start when they reached adulthood, and paying up didn't always teach them financial responsibility either.
It's the attitude that they need to pay to learn is what irritates me and anyone who didn't pay doesn't know the value of money etc etc etc. For the record, the OPs working adult children should pay or move out because of their financial situation, I'm not convinced the youngest should while they are still in college. Passing their exams should be the main priority, not having a certain amount of money each week.
I guess iv experienced the transition of childhood to adulthood a different way than most.

Big Bag of Chips

scarepanda wrote: »

I guess iv experienced the transition of childhood to adulthood a different way than most.

I wouldn't say you have! I'd say a huge portion of young people did it that way. Especially people who were able to live at home for college. These threads are only ever posted about the minority who feels affronted at being asked to pay "rent" to sleep in their childhood bed. When in fact that's not what they're being asked at all.

scarepanda

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

I wouldn't say you have! I'd say a huge portion of young people did it that way. Especially people who were able to live at home for college. These threads are only ever posted about the minority who feels affronted at being asked to pay "rent" to sleep in their childhood bed. When in fact that's not what they're being asked at all.

I would hope I didn't! It would be a sad world if that was the case.
I know the OP in general is usually coming from that point of view, and I do truly sympathise with parents who are struggling financially with adult working children still living with them expecting to be looked after like children and not having the where with all to help out.
It's the high and mighty responce that they get that pisses me off. The general attitude that if you don't pay your parents, irrespective of their financial situation, or agreement/expectation that your basically not a functioning adult in Irish society. There's never any consideration that there may be a different expectation or arrangement in place and that people can still learn without having to pay up.

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

Living at home, while "working your ass off to support yourself" is a bit of a paradox if you are not handing up money at home. Just because you're not getting "pocket money" from your parents, doesn't mean you're supporting yourself.

These two sentences from you earlier are what got me so worked up - I didn't hand up money, I didn't pay rent, but I did work my arse off to support myself, to not be an added drain on my parents. I never said I was financially independent when I was in college, but that doesn't mean I wasn't able to support myself in that particular situation. If I wasn't going to college in my local town and had no choice but to rent, I wouldn't have had any issues affording it, I would just have had to prioritise different things.
My brother didn't pay when he was at home and he was 26 when he moved out. But the money he 'saved' by living at home has helped him set up his own business, part of which needs a big financial investment. Did living at home and not paying rent make him dependent on my parents? Did it mean that he didn't understand the value of money because he wasn't paying market value + bills? No it didn't, it just meant that he was afforded an opportunity by my parents to save and do something better than they had the chance to do when they were his age.

listermint

scarepanda wrote: »

I would hope I didn't! It would be a sad world if that was the case.
I know the OP in general is usually coming from that point of view, and I do truly sympathise with parents who are struggling financially with adult working children still living with them expecting to be looked after like children and not having the where with all to help out.
It's the high and mighty responce that they get that pisses me off. The general attitude that if you don't pay your parents, irrespective of their financial situation, or agreement/expectation that your basically not a functioning adult in Irish society. There's never any consideration that there may be a different expectation or arrangement in place and that people can still learn without having to pay up.



These two sentences from you earlier are what got me so worked up - I didn't hand up money, I didn't pay rent, but I did work my arse off to support myself, to not be an added drain on my parents. I never said I was financially independent when I was in college, but that doesn't mean I wasn't able to support myself in that particular situation. If I wasn't going to college in my local town and had no choice but to rent, I wouldn't have had any issues affording it, I would just have had to prioritise different things.
My brother didn't pay when he was at home and he was 26 when he moved out. But the money he 'saved' by living at home has helped him set up his own business, part of which needs a big financial investment. Did living at home and not paying rent make him dependent on my parents? Did it mean that he didn't understand the value of money because he wasn't paying market value + bills? No it didn't, it just meant that he was afforded an opportunity by my parents to save and do something better than they had the chance to do when they were his age.

Feels like you don't have a breeze what the ops life is like. It sounds like your parents could afford all this. Decent jobs and didn't have to go back shift work to put them through college when they were in their twenties

Get a grip young man

Ursus Horribilis

This seems to have turned into a debate but the general consensus is that yes, it's not unreasonable to ask grown up children who are now working to give something back to their parents. I mentioned earlier that when I was at college, it didn't even cross my mind that I was costing my parents so much money. One thing I am pretty confident of, though, is that if either of my parents had come to me at any stage and asked for a contribution from my job, I would have given them the money without a quibble. I have always had a good relationship with my parents and I wouldn't dream of abusing them from a height like the OP's kids have. That is what the fundamental issue is here.

Taltos

Mod Note
Sorry OP but it's time to close this thread and I hope you've gotten the answer you were seeking.
Unfortunately as posts continued to personalise the issue here (quite natural tbh) we're now in the territory of discussion and have moved from constructive advice, hence the move to close here.