Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

lostinsuperfunk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827344#Comment_121827344

Would greatly appreciate if specific instances of councillors stalling and slowing down improvement projects could be posted here, e.g. links to public statements, council debates or tweets (I can think of one particular suspect but there must be more). It's time to put pressure on them while the elections are approaching. The city is grinding to a halt with car traffic, we need better bus routes and cycle lanes in the short term and some kind of mass transit as soon as possible.

Frostybrew

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41393686.html

Some more images that could hint at route selection. MacCurtain St. and Skehard road shown. This would suggest that the greenway route is not going to be used, going by the Skehard Road photo; and it would head towards Boreenmanna road.

Corkladddd!!

I've thought about this and can't fathom why the docklands is no longer the desired path as I thought it was a pre requisite for the planning and development we're all looking forward to and the only illogical answer I can come up with (forgetting our consistent lack of foresight and care/diligence) is that they're planning a second line.

Tivoli (New Bus/Rail Terminus?) → Eastern Gateway Bridge → Center Park Road → Intersection To Ballincollig Mahon Line → Turners Cross → Ballyphenane → Togher → Airport

All to be figured out is the Douglas to Blackpool Line and we're relatively set for our metro albeit some rail to the port is going to be required at some stage.

*I'll go back to my day dreams

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830915#Comment_121830915

Sorry I never responded to this. Yes it's difficult to present something that's shown in confidence, but I'll try and post up some of the public discussions. The live commentary of some of the council meetings by Eoin English on Twitter/X were very good for showing some of it. Not sure if he still does them.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122135793#Comment_122135793

I'd have thought it's more that parts of the Passage line aren't very accessible from the street and has long runs where it doesn't go near dense housing which makes it less useful for PT. Assuming the images are actually serious and they're not just creating unrealistic graphics cause they know it will never happen.

KrisW1001

These mockups do not represent a change of route. If you look at the LRT proposal maps, you can see that the tram does traverse MacCurtain Street before crossing the river onto Patrick Street, and also that it leaves the old railway alignment just north of Skehard Road. The proposed route from there to Mahon Point diverges from existing roads, and to be honest it always looked very "hand-wavey" on the original proposal map, especially as the Ballinure housing estate effectively blocks the kind of southward turn needed to get to the commercial developments at Mahon Point. (There isn't space at the CSO site). I suspect that in the final route they'll now carry on east on Skehard Road until the cemetary, then make a hook south and then west back through Mahon Point.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136607#Comment_122136607

Why though? Why not just stay on the original alignment until St. Michael's Drive and turn directly into Mahon Point from there?

KrisW1001

My guess it's there's two reasons. First, Skehard Road is a main arterial road, and it lies on a major spine in BusConnects, so a stop there is desirable. Unfortunately, there is not much space to build a properly accessible tram stop on the old rail alignment where it crosses Skehard Road. Any stop not at street level needs to be wheelchair accessible, and that may require lifts as well as ramps, and there's no room for that here. At Blackrock Road, the presence of the former railway station does provide the necessary space for a fully accessible stop.

The second reason is that I believe the planners did not want a conflict on the Mahon Link Road where the existing heavy car traffic would seriously delay the tram service, and if you run all the way down to St Michael's Drive, you have to then cross this road at its busiest point if you want to serve destinations in the Mahon Point commercial parks. An off-street routing from Skehard Road south to Mahon Point would not suffer this kind of contention, and would also allow the northern half of the office park to be served. The accessibility issues also apply to a stop here, but there would at least be room to address them; I think the bigger issue is traffic conflict.

BagofWeed

Cork being Cork It'll be the slowest light rail ever built.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138504#Comment_122138504

I'm not sure if you mean that the project will be slow, or the rail itself, but I just wanted to say that I've been impressed with the pace of the Cork commuter rail projects over the last year or two.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140421#Comment_122140421

Cork Commuter Rail has been done outside of the planning process. The Irish planning process is infrastructure kryptonite.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140421#Comment_122140421

That said, what is arguably the most significant Cork Commuter rail project of all - the double-tracking between Carrigtwohill and Midleton - still hasn’t started despite planning being granted and money (apparently) being on the table. My concern is that with the General Election due in Q1 next year, the minister is moving inexorably closer to lame duck territory.

TheSunIsShining

Ending in Mahon, with Rochestown, Passage and Douglas so close, seems very short sighted. Why not run it over the South Ring and then have a split with one route going to Passage/Monkstown (with the possibility of onward to Carrigaline) and the other spur routing back up the Rochestown Road to Douglas?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143849#Comment_122143849

The bigger the initial project is, the more likely it is to attract objections (and let's face it, the N28 experience world discourage anyone from proposing new infrastructure builds near Rochestown). But, there's nothing to stop an extension later, and the light rail will be popular once it opens, making it much harder for the NIMBYs to gain support..

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143849#Comment_122143849

A bigger project cost more money and takes longer to build. Consider this Phase 1 in the Cork LRT project.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143816#Comment_122143816

Maybe check some facts before going off on one? They only received permission from ABP in November.

Next Steps

A Railway Order application was granted by An Bord Pleanála in November 2023 to construct a proposed second rail track along the 10km railway line between Glounthaune and Midleton. Invitation to tender for construction works will issue in January 2024, with a construction start planned for summer 2024. This will enable twin-tracking to be completed by late 2026.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-area-commuter-rail/glounthaune-to-midleton-twin-track-project

Work is already underway on the signalling upgrade.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144404#Comment_122144404

Others here may also not have seen the type of foreshore harbour SPA objections on "environmental grounds" that can come through, the closer you get to the Rochestown Road. There's a reason the greenway turns to sh1t for a few hundred metres there, and it's down to not Council laziness!

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144717#Comment_122144717

Oddly aggressive response. I wasn't "going off on one" and I'm not sure which facts you think I failed to check. I just expressed concern. They said that the RFT would issue in January but I couldn't find any record of that on the etender site (that would be public right?) and it is now May. If the RFT hasn't even issued yet, the summer start date looks optimistic.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140421#Comment_122140421

That's because those initial projects are funded by the EU Covid recovery fund which has a hard deadline of the end of 2026 for projects to be delivered so that covers the resignalling, new platform at Kent and Midleton to Glounthaune dual tracking.

However the other elements like new stations, rolling stock, electrification and new depot are not funded and have no detailed plans.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143849#Comment_122143849

It's a good idea but Cork would be lucky to get the initial route done.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122166022#Comment_122166022

True. Very true. Wonder, being serious, if it will be built by even say 2040?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122166696#Comment_122166696

I don't see why not. We've loads of money.

The cost/benefit seems strong. I think it'll have high ridership.

It's great for the docklands development also.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122166696#Comment_122166696

I don't see it to be honest. The emerging preferred route was supposed to be revealed by the end of 2022, then it was deferred until July 2023 and then it was further deferred with hardly a word since. And that's just the first step in the process. It's not funded, and based on the backlash to BusConnects, the amount of nimbyism and objections will be off the charts if it ever does go for consultation/planning.

Between the painfully slow development of infrastructure in this country anyway, and the extreme nimbyism I can't see this happening for decades, if ever. Hope I'm wrong.

KrisW1001

The most contentious part of the original proposal was on Wilton Road, where it was decided (unfairly in my view) that all land-take should be from residences on one side of the road, leaving the other completely untouched. This kind of thing would leave them wide open to having the planning refused. However, the original propsal was to widen the road by 9 metres here: a second bus lane, plus two tram lanes, but I think this has been scaled back since, and there may now be a fairer distribution of the pain.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168242#Comment_122168242

Where was that plan published? I don't remember any detailed proposals involving a tram in the Wilton road.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171328#Comment_122171328

Was that not the bus lane proposal a good few years back? When the residents had marked out in their gardens how much land was being taken - houses impacted were on the church side of the road as I recall

KrisW1001

Yes, it's the 2019 proposal, but it wasn't just a bus lane. Residents were given two scenarios for CPO: one for a bus lane, and a second for a bus lane plus light rail. The route shown in the initial Cork LRT proposal goes right up Wilton Road… you really can't serve both UCC and CUH without going this way.

All land take was on one side of the road, which sounds like a recipe for disaster in planning as it can be easily argued to be unfairly placing all the negative impacts on one group of people while leaving others untroubled. Both sides of the street are equally set back from the current road; if anything the side that was to be untouched had more space than the side that wasn't... the cynic in me does note that the sacrificial side of the road is all residential, while the untouched one has a couple of businesses located on it, and homeowners can't write off their legal fees against taxes...

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171539#Comment_122171539

That was my memory, we've never seen much more than crayon route drawings from the NTA so I'm finding it hard to think that there were serious CPO discussions. Maybe some official trying to big up the plans to get people on board? There was plenty of misinformation going round back then too IIRC

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146092#Comment_122146092

Well, well, well…

The third project consists of upgrading the Glounthaune to Midleton line to create a twin track.

Iarnród Éireann said it expects a contract for this work to be awarded next month, and the project is expected to be completed by the end of 2026. The value of the contract is around €90m.

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0524/1450928-rail-stations-cork/

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176513#Comment_122176513

Yes, great news that the contract is expected to be awarded next month. But my points stand. Firstly, there was no evidence that anything was happening due to silence since their last update before Christmas. That was legitimate grounds for concern. Secondly, given that I simply stated that concern, your first reply to me was unnecessarily aggressive. We can discuss without acting like 16-year-olds.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176625#Comment_122176625

It wasn't in any way aggressive. I was making a simple point.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177156#Comment_122177156

I think most people would agree that the tone of “maybe check some facts before going off on one?” is provocative at best. Anyway, that’s that.

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41403353.html

An initial option suggested city-bound trams should turn right here, going down South Mall and into the south docks, avoiding the city's main street, and not taking in Kent Station.

But the council insisted the route should turn left and run through St Patrick’s St, cross St Patrick’s Bridge, and then down MacCurtain St to a hub at Kent Station, before crossing the Lee again via a new bridge into the south docks, and on to Mahon via a section of the Marina to Mahon greenway.

→ Interesting debate - the council’s point of view sounds more viable if it can be achieved

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188218#Comment_122188218

Agreed, would be more difficult but far better

pigtown

Not taking in Kent Station would be a mistake. Would it connect with any of the suburban stations otherwise?

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188647#Comment_122188647

I assume it would be a loop - so down South Mall, South Docks, new bridge to Kent, up McCurtain Street maybe, across Patrick's Bridge, up Patrick Street and join back to a common route at Washington Street?

Chris_5339762

Not taking in Kent Station would be absolutely outrageous. The only way they are going to help reduce traffic from the east is to better connect Kent to Cork via a nice reliable Luas - as currently the onward connections might as well not exist.

Leaving Kent Station out of Luas plans would be a disconnected-green-and-red-line-and-lets-not-link-to-Dublin-Airport level of stupid all over again.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188325#Comment_122188325

The article would be easy to follow if it had a little explainer map.

KrisW1001

Maps are dangerous at this point in a project.. it's too easy for people with an axe to grind to distribute a proposal drawing as if it were the final plan, and suddenly we're knee deep in objections.

From what I understand, the council proposal is that the tram line turns left at the Capitol, travels along Patrick St to the river, then crosses the bridge. At this point the tracks split: The city-bound track is routed along the quays, while the track for Kent continues along MacCurtain St, the tracks meet again somwhere around Penrose Wharf, both pass through the Kent Station site, and are then carried south on a new light rail bridge towards the Docklands.

The simpler option is that at the city end of Washington Street, both tram lines turn right, follow Grand Parade and South Mall, then cross the river somwhere to the east of City hall and continue into the Docklands.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188797#Comment_122188797

I actually don't see the point in doing the "simple" option you're describing. Maybe you could do a new pedestrian bridge over to Kennedy Quay from Kent where they'd reach the tram, but not connecting directly at Kent between suburban rail and Luas would appear to be a massive mistake as far as I'm concerned. We're around half way through integrating bus and rail at Kent and it's absolutely transformative, why would we propose another disconnected transport system?

KrisW1001

I agree. I only favour the "turn left" option promoted by Cork City Council that would bring the line across the North Channel and link directly with Kent Station.

The "simple" option is a minor cost-saving that would dramatically reduce the ridership of both the light rail line and the Cork commuter rail service.

Markcheese

To be honest , kent IS the important part of the city side ,docklands is a nice extra ,

It makes midleton, cobh and mallow routes work better ,

KrisW1001

Docklands is the future of Cork City. Go have a walk around there sometime and see just how much empty space there is there.. I only hope the city holds its nerve and insists on proper long-term habitable apartments being built.

... but then, we are dealing with the organisation that granted planning to the Elysian without requiring rubbish chutes (yep, "modern city living" means bringing your dripping bin bags down 17 floors in the lift..)

Corkladddd!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191300#Comment_122191300

Apartments designed by those who've never lived in apartments!

I'll continue to beat this drum but all apartment complexes need the following items in my view. Dedicated Storage Space (Bikes etc.), Integrated Waste Facilities, A common room for booking (social space) and a pick-up/drop off space for taxis and for moving!

Back on topic, I do think the docklands is necessary on the route and I'm not convinced that it only needs to be the current city side either, I think it needs to travel CPR or Monahan Road as I genuinely believe that we need to use the Luas to unlock the Stadium/Marina Park etc. as social spaces.

hans aus dtschl

Theoretically you could start by putting the tram down the docklands before anywhere else was completed, and expanding in either direction from there. It would be an inefficient way to run the project obviously but just saying it would be possible to unlock sustainable development in the docklands before anywhere else.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192606#Comment_122192606

But who would use it?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193332#Comment_122193332

People living or working in the new developments, wanting to connect to or from Kent. I know it's only a short stretch, but the convenience (and you'd hope integrated ticketing) would make it desirable. Again, an obviously inefficient way to develop the network

namloc1980

Any light rail line that doesn't incorporate Kent would be a dreadful move.

cgcsb

There should really be a 3 line system, ballincollig to mahon via south docks, a Wilton to Kent line and a Douglas to Blackpool line with an airport branch. You can't serve everything with one line.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193559#Comment_122193559

I wouldn't see many people in the docklands area being that interested in heading to Kent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying no one would be heading to Kent, but the vast majority would be heading to the City and onto UCC, etc.

The attraction of a connection to Kent would be more for commuters arriving into Kent to continue into the City Center, out to UCC, etc and vice versa.