Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806392#Comment_121806392

Different technology, which is just emerging, so not in use 'all over Europe'. If you read the info in the link you'll see that trackless trams have emerged from high-speed rail technology. Versions of trackless trams have been in development for almost 20 years, but in 2017 the Chinese Rail Corporation, CRRC, introduced an autonomously guided tram, a significant advance of the design and technology known as Autonomous Rapid Transit (ART).

I've been on the Belfast Flyers, they are simple low-floor bendy busses and you do get thrown around a bit on them.

A dedicated rapid transit lane without rails can be equally effective as a light-rail corridor if it's properly policed. For years London buses have been fitted with cameras and any other vehicles recorded on the bus camera are issued with a fine, which currently stands at £160, or £80 if you pay within 14 days. The result is no one dares go in a bus lane in London.

This is from a 2004 report '900 cameras on buses and 500 roadside cameras patrol the city’s 700 bus lanes, issuing 100,000 summonses each year'

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806974#Comment_121806974

Outside of being smoother which is not really a barrier to using transport what exactly will they do that the Flyer or similar in Europe can do for a passenger ?

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121807006#Comment_121807006

It's all in the link I provided.

BTW, I'm not interested in discussing the pros and cons, I just posted a link to an emerging new Rapid Transit technology, which I thought might be of interest.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121807036#Comment_121807036

Ya I read the link and it provides nothing to suggest it does anything that the Flyer and other systems in Europe don't do. So I am asking you to explain what is so special about that to back up your claim that they are "not all over Europe"

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121807006#Comment_121807006

Some Towns/Cities are replacing them with real trams. They have a downside too.

spacetweek

“Trackless trams” is an oxymoron. It’s always recommended that you go with established technologies not “Gadgetbahn” stuff which always comes with lots of hype.

I remember when Wesley Johnston was discussing on his NI Roads site the Belfast Glider and he presented the capital and running costs for bus and tram versions and then said that the bus had been chosen because the running costs were lower. I rolled my eyes.

timmyntc

Trackless trams is one of those "silicon valley reinventing the bus again" type statements.

It is a bus with tracks. It is suggested it mostly has its own road lanes (bus lanes), and it is articulated. Like the Belfast glider, but tracks instead of wheels.

It is not a good replacement for rail, light or otherwise. If you would consider carving out corridors for this autonomous bendy bus, you might as well go the whole hog and just put down rails. At least then you won't have to charge the bus at every stop.

Sam Russell

Well Trolley buses were used in London from 1932 to 1862 to replace trams and were successful with fast acceleration and quieter than the trams they replaced and the then diesel buses. They carried 70 passengers rather than 52 passengers on the diesel buses. Currently Geneva operates trolley buses, and probably other cities.

Trolley buses run on rubber wheels and get power from dual o/h wires. Dedicated bus lanes would make them a very good alternative to trams.

KrisW1001

Trolleybuses are more efficient than trams when you have to deal with steep gradients. And because there are no rails, they don't require underground services to be cleared along the route.

They're in a kind of halfway house between BRT and Light Rail in terms of cost, efficiency and capacity.

Our love of double-decker buses makes them a non-starter in Ireland, though.

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809343#Comment_121809343

The tram leaving the airport in Geneve moves faster than most of our trains.

notJoeJoe

Personally I think trolleybuses would be a good idea for high intensity routes than battery-powered buses. (Also, double decker buses can be powered by overhead wires).

That being said though, there is more wear and tear associated with large heavy road vehicles like buses. If Cork operated a BRT instead of an LRT, the route would become littered with potholes and would regularly have to be resurfaced. Just setting in a pair of tram tracks would solve this issue because all the weight of the tram would be on the rails. Also, something that often isn't considered is the fact trams have far larger capacity than buses. If you are building a high-intensity transport link serving densely populated areas, you need something that can carry a lot of people.

Sam Russell

The choice of vehicle could be battery powered bus or O/H powered vehicle such as a trolley bus or BRT articulated bus - which would be a rubber tyred tram. Cost, utility, capacity, flexibility of route, etc. would drive the choice.

Dedicated lanes would solve the pothole problem. Tracks require substantial foundations. The Luas required basements to be filled in.

spacetweek

One more thing about trackless trams - "charging at every stop" is plain stupid. What's your dwell time at a stop, like 30 seconds? Even for a lot of stops (say 30) that would only be 15 minutes of charging. That'd wouldn't be a significant amount of charge.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817412#Comment_121817412

I dunno, i saw it in seville , there are sections of yhe route with no overhead wires , and sections with wires only over the stops, , i assume there are fully wired sections out of the city centre , buy i didn't see those,

KrisW1001

I think what you were looking at was a trolleybus system with some wire-free sections. The buses can still charge while on the move, but just not in certain areas. Adding higher capacity batteries has made trolleybuses a lot more flexible in cities that already had them, as now the buses can go further in areas without overhead power (all trolleybuses have had batteries since the beginning, the big change now is being able to use lightweight lithium batteries).

The "trackless tram" and electric bus systems are different: they have no overhead chaging at all between stops and rely on static charging at stops, which is a lot less reliable. It also means that they are running off battery 100% of the time which decreases the operational life of the batteries; an overhead-powered bus will only be running off battery for the short sections where there's no overhead lines - everywhere else, the overhead power is driving the bus and topping up its battery, if needed.

Markcheese

What i saw was definitely a tram , looked like a luas actually ( most light rail does) ran on steel tracks ,

Just googled it , caf urbo 2 , technically a light metro,

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818079#Comment_121818079

This system use to have overhead wires, but now they have replaced it by a combination of super-capacitors and lithium batteries, charged from overhead at stops.

It is worth noting that the line is only 2km long! It has just 4 trams and 5 stops. So I don't think this would translate to a a much longer tram in Cork. (Of course Seville has a Metro system too).

EV double decker buses are now on the roads of Dublin, so no chance of Trolleybuses system being built anywhere in Ireland now. Why go to the expense and planning objections of OHL for a trolleybus, when EV buses are now available and avoid those issues.

I've no doubt that the options for Cork are either regular tram like Luas or EV BRT if they decide to cheap out.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818079#Comment_121818079

That's correct. The Saville system has overhead wires in the suburbs but wireless in the city center. At each stop in the city, the pantograph rises to make contact with a power supply for a shot of charge while the passengers are getting on and off, there is no delay at the stop for charging.

The above system makes for an excellent mix of power supply which obviated the need to deface their beautiful city center with overhead cables.

niloc1951

bk wrote 'EV double decker buses are now on the roads of Dublin, so no chance of Trolleybuses system being built anywhere in Ireland now. '

They are hybrid not 100% EV's, see here https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/nta-launches-hybrid-buses-for-dublin-and-galway-city-services/

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820009#Comment_121820009

Those are older buses, the latest buses bought this year are full EV. 120 full EV buses coming this year, a total of 421 are on order, with a framework to buy 800 of them!

Basically all new buses bought for DB and BE city services since last year are full EV and will continue to be going forward.

They are Wrights Streetdeck Electroliner BEV, they are called the class EW with Dublin Bus and EWD with Bus Eireann. They have 340 kWh batteries.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/testing-and-training-on-dublins-electric-buses-under-way/

BTW These buses have already been operating on my local route here in Dublin for a couple of months now, I've been on them frequently!

So it would be hard to justify trolley buses with so many BEV buses hitting the streets now.

bk

I should also add that there are about 100 or so full battery electric single decker buses coming soon. They already operating the new bus service in Ahtlone (100% Electric service) and coming to Dublin soon with the new O orbital route.

https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/143233/irelands-first-all-electric-town-bus-service-launched-athlone/

It will only be a matter of time before both these single and Double Deckers end up operating in Cork on BE's regular city service.

KrisW1001

There is no free lunch: EV buses are more expensive, less energy efficient, slower, and have a shorter working life than trolleybuses.

Against that, the need for OHLE installation for trolleybuses would completely rule them out here in Ireland... unless you were to run the buses along some of the same streets as on-street Luas. Otherwise, it's a lot of costs, and one more thing for the NIMBYs to go after as "spoiling the view". They were a handy way for cities to reuse existing on-road tram infrastructure, but up here we just threw everything away when we closed the tramlines in Cork and Dublin.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820431#Comment_121820431

We didn't throw everything away 😂😉 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8973749,-8.4129976,3a,43.1y,247.55h,80t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDV1Cyna9JEseW7jgJIewcg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820476#Comment_121820476

I assume those tracks are 1.6 m gauge so might as well be binned. Luas is 4 ft 8 and half inches.

plodder

Article about the Seville (in sections) battery powered trams. Apparently, they used to have to disassemble the overhead lines every year for the Easter parade. Seems like a practical solution in particular sensitive situations. The system appears very similar to LUAS otherwise, down to the exact same 'ding ding' warning chime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acumulador_de_Carga_R%C3%A1pida

bk

The really nice thing about Luas and one of the major reasons for its success is how standardised it is. It uses probably the most successful Tram models, the Alstom Citadis which has been highly successful and is used in like 50 cities across Europe. But even more than that everything about it is very standard, standard gauge, 750v DC OHL, etc. so would be easy to buy new trams from different manufacturers if needed.

This has made it so easy to buy new trams, extend them, maintain them, etc.

It is a breath of fresh air from the weird quirks of the rest of our public transport system, that makes buying and maintaining it difficult. Just look at how much trouble it was to get a couple of extra ICR carriages! Irish garage rail, our own unique signalling system, incompatible with NI, etc. Double decker buses that are hard to electrify, while mainland Europe uses single deckers, etc.

In my mind if we want to have a decent system in Cork it has to be Luas. It is tried and tested in Dublin and Cork sized cities all over Europe use exactly that system, it was pretty much designed for that.

Other weird quirky systems would just end up being inferior and likely end up more trouble in the long term.

If they aren’t willing to pay for Luas, then it will just end up a EV BRT, like an EV version of the glider buses in Belfast and yes, that would be far inferior.

Kris, yes, there are trade offs of EV buses versus trolley buses, but clearly with 800 EV bus order, we are going all in on EV buses. And it makes sense, there is no way we could afford and deal with the public blowback of trying to put up hundreds of kilometres of OHL across Dublin and Cork for trolley bus, that just isn’t realistic. Much easier to just convert the Diesel buses to EV buses, even though it does have challenges.

Battery capacity is expanding quickly and prices dropping quickly, I expect to see Diesel buses all across Europe being replaced by BEV buses.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820651#Comment_121820651

A few sudays ago i Saw an older cyclist get his bike wheel stuck in the track in blackrock , hit rhe ground fairly hard - apparently not uncommon

niloc1951

Reply to Sam Russel post.

They're a piece of Victorian history, more likely an imperial measurement.

They were uncovered during a public realm improvement project and restored as a piece of the Cork tram network history, not to form part of any future tram network 😀

KrisW1001

@bk I completely agree. Nothing other than BEV buses is practical for us here.

Double deck buses make overhead electricity really difficult to use. Actually, just wait long enough and I'm sure someone will probably use that fact as an objection against Cork Luas (despite the relatively small number of 2-deck buses in the city, and the fact that Cork Luas is probably dead anyway).

If Dublin had a more extensive Luas on-street network in the city, then BEV trolleybuses could be used for in- motion charging on shared streets, but then, if Dublin has a more extensive Luas network in the city centre, buses of any kind would become rare in the centre, solving the problem a different way...

cgcsb

I'm hearing from the NTA(possible bias) that Cork City Council is 'hostile' to the project and is engaging in obfusticating tactics, i.e. going back over agreed points, moaning about parking revenue, moaning about road space, moaning about construction disruption, moaning about their role in project delivery etc. to the point that the NTA has more less thrown in the towel, and will move resources to other projects.

The NTA has increasingly taken a 'pick your battles' position, long fingerings things that they don't feel are winnable in the short term e.g. the south end of metro link and DART+Coastal south.

The council is also doing its best to scupper bus connects Cork.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822717#Comment_121822717

The NTA or TII?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822875#Comment_121822875

The NTA at this stage. TII are more of a build/maintain body

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822554#Comment_121822554

if Dublin has a more extensive Luas network in the city centre, buses of any kind would become rare in the centre, solving the problem a different way...

Yep, Amsterdam city bus fleet is just 160 vehicles, while Dublin is like 1,200! Both cities roughly the same size, the difference being Amsterdam as an extensive Tram and Metro network instead of heavily using buses.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822309#Comment_121822309

The Irish gauge is metric at 1.600 Metres. Dublin to Kingstown line was converted to Irish gauge in 1854 from the Std gauge of 4 ft 8.5 inches to allow integration with the Bray to Harcourt st line.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820651#Comment_121820651

They were 900 mm, chosen to be interoperable with the nearby Blackrock and Passage Railway at 3 ft 🤷🏻‍♂️ We've made some strange choices over the years.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822717#Comment_121822717

Not fully accurate info from NTA: the councilors are hostile, but the council themselves and engineering teams etc are not.

They do appear to be hostile on Bus Connects though from what I've seen.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823427#Comment_121823427

Yes I'd expect that's the case. They're probably used to dealing with Dublin councilors who might be also hostile but also well used to change amd perhaps a little more pragmatic.

hans aus dtschl

I don't think it's over yet in Cork, some councilors are being won over to the mindset of "infrastructure could be a good thing".

A lot of old-fashioned thinking around the place still unfortunately. Its taking time to turn things around.

bk

Anyone who knows what the Councillors in Cork are like would not be at all surprised!

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823480#Comment_121823480

Too late now I'd say, the NTA have moved resources off the project and there's currently no plan to continue working on a preferred route option or public consultation in the short term, its dead. Luas Finglas will likely benefit from this, community groups in finglas have been hassling their TDs to get it built quicker than the post 2030 timeline and there's no local or political opposition to the project. The NTA is choosing its battles. Its simply not worth fighting people to give them something, just move on from it. Revisit when the stakeholders mature and after the budget has been spent on infrastructure elsewhere and jealousy rears its head.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824571#Comment_121824571

If that’s true, it’s beyond astounding. Cork City Council, both elected and administrative, have managed to block €3 billion worth of national investment into public infrastructure in Cork City? There hasn’t even been any meaningful community or public objections to it yet, if anything the public and local media have broadly supported the project. I understand that could all change when the route is announced but I can’t get over the council scuppering the project at this stage. Ann Doherty was asking for businesses to buy into the project just this month, to be simultaneously filibustering behind the scenes would be the biggest scandal in local politics in a generation. I am still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor, I hope someone like Eoin English or Tripe and Drisheen are reading this.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825821#Comment_121825821

It's not Ann and her colleagues though, it's the elected representatives. Some of them are doing unbelievable damage to the council's own projects. Some of them are actively organising the public to block almost anything that's sustainable transport oriented. It's the same few names all the time and some of them even have vested business interests in selling car related stuff. They're fairly brazen about it too, not quite Mannix Flynn level stuff but not far off it.

I used to criticise Ann and her colleagues a lot previously, but I think they're working really hard now and are singing broadly the right songs.

Very disappointing to hear the NTA are moving on though, even if it is understandable.

KrisW1001

There are local elections coming up. If you see a politician out campaigning, make your opinions on this project known to them.

Their biggest vested interest is staying in a seat.

gooseman12

I do agree that there are a large number of vocal councilors fighting active and public transport projects.

But, I do believe these councilors have some very strong public support in this regards.

We have seen it everywhere with BusConnects, local groups of residents and businesses fighting tooth and nail on everything. Those councilors are just riding the wave of this opinion. The councilors are chasing votes and ultimately don't care where they are coming from.

There are still enough people out there around cork who live and die by their cars and looking at how cork is being developed this cohort is probably not getting any smaller anytime soon.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827189#Comment_121827189

That's partly true, some Councilors are very reasonable in explaining what you're saying.

However some Councilors in private are also just downright backwards: they are themselves the ones who live and die by their cars and are very much leading, rather than being led. The council meetings show them intervening in schemes which have little to no public pushback.

As KrisW1001 says, it's very worthwhile to actually discuss with them during canvassing. It doesn't even break down along party lines, which is interesting.

cgcsb

Although County Council is different from city, the mindset seems to be similar. This is what Cork councilors are up to with TII

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/cork/news/cork-county-council-to-write-to-transport-infrastructure-ireland-seeking-a-review-of-their-planning-policies-in-relation-to-national-routes/a1992328690.html

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822554#Comment_121822554

?? Dublin buses run under Luas wires all the time, no problem.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828318#Comment_121828318

“This is a real killer for one-off housing in rural Ireland,” said Cllr Carroll.

Tiny violins at the ready... 🎻

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823324#Comment_121823324

The Cork Tramway system was a 2'11" gauge. The Cork, Blackrock & Passage line, while originally the standard 5'3" gauge was converted to the narrow gauge 3'0" when it was extended to Crosshaven. The Muskery Railway was also a narrow gauge system 3'0". The Tram to Sundays Well traveled successfully on the Muskery line along Western Road as far as Victoria Cross Road, where it left the Muskery line and turned north to Wellington Bridge (now named Thomas Davis Bridge).

While there are metric equivalents to the original gauges, I don't see The Board of Trade of the UK, speaking in metric measurements in The Regulating the Gauge of Railways Act 1846

The 4'8½" is still the UK standard gauge which is equal to the 1435mm, or thereabouts, found throughout Europe. We're an outlier with our 5'3" (1600mm) gauge which is why we need special custom-made bogies on any rolling stock ordered.

Sam Russell

I do not want to drag this thread off topic by discussing railway gauge.

More info here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_Ireland