Catalan independence referendum, 2017

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Can you tell me please?

This will be good.

I am looking for you to educate us

bertie 56

How can you still post with so little knowledge about the subject ???

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There has never been a referendum on whether Catalonia is a nation. You are being deliberately misleading

Estatut d'Autonomia de Catalunya : 18 june 2006 : passed at a majority of 73,23 % by referendum.
Read the content :rolleyes:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There has never been a referendum on Catalan independence. Again, you are being deliberately misleading by trying to confuse a parliamentary based general elections with a referendum.

I'm afraid the confusion is in your side, I'm talking about elections and the political program of each party promoting independence .

Read the content of their programs :rolleyes:.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Interesting that you want to leave the European Union while simultaneously keeping a seat. Reminds me of Nigel Farage

Catalonia doesn't want to leave the EU, but if the new country has to , they will re-apply straight away.

Nigel Farage ? Catalonia has always been more pro-European than Spain.:D
Read the different results of the different EU elections over the years :rolleyes:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Laws passed legally yes, laws that are broken and circumvented as independence politicians have done. No.

You are once again wrong here .
All laws passed in the Catalan Parliament has been legal, and has been declared legal according to Catalan laws by Spain.
Spain has never pursued and convinced any Catalan politician for having broke a Catalan law.
Repeating over and over , at every page for the last 2 years , that " Catalonia broke their own rules " won't make it a true fact .
I've explain you this already , and you were never been able to prove me wrong with facts.

See this post for a memory refresh :
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107265445&postcount=1909
Read it :rolleyes:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Again, you are factually incorrect. There has been no vote on Catalan independence. None, nada. Sorry but fake and phoney referendums don’t count.

You haven't read my post properly .
I put it back here, so you can read it :rolleyes:

bertie 56 wrote: »

- Accept that , in or out of the Spanish law frame , an official referendum is needed NOW ( as voted repetitively by a large majority of Catalans )

For the rest , nothing new, you just forgot to mention " ballots boxes from Alibaba ":rolleyes:

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Interesting how the PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) is stepping back and keeping distances from all this mess.
They are more practical and are aiming for more MPs in Madrid after November general election.

About getting involved :

They don't know what they could win , but they know what they could loose ! :P

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

but they know what they could loose

That's what I said

lawred2

Nody wrote: »

Difference being Iceland already had a healthy trade and sit in the middle of nowhere so access is easy; Catalan would have locked down road access, no flight access etc. and even sea access would be restricted by Spanish Navy doing "inspections".

So yes, I'm saying they would be bullied to the point they would lose over 80% of the population in the first six months because they can't live off the land. Since a legal case would take years if not decades to go through all courts and appeals the final result is at best going to be academical value alone because the country of Catalan will no longer exist as it has been absorbed back into Spain (by force if necessary to prevent "terrorists" a safe haven).

That sounds all a bit fantastical. In essence you're saying that Spain would create a humanitarian crisis in the heart of the EU.

Delusional.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

How can you still post with so little knowledge about the subject ???



Estatut d'Autonomia de Catalunya : 18 june 2006 : passed at a majority of 73,23 % by referendum.
Read the content :rolleyes:





I'm afraid the confusion is in your side, I'm talking about elections and the political program of each party promoting independence .

Read the content of their programs :rolleyes:.





Catalonia doesn't want to leave the EU, but if the new country has to , they will re-apply straight away.

Nigel Farage ? Catalonia has always been more pro-European than Spain.:D
Read the different results of the different EU elections over the years :rolleyes:





You are once again wrong here .
All laws passed in the Catalan Parliament has been legal, and has been declared legal according to Catalan laws by Spain.
Spain has never pursued and convinced any Catalan politician for having broke a Catalan law.
Repeating over and over , at every page for the last 2 years , that " Catalonia broke their own rules " won't make it a true fact .
I've explain you this already , and you were never been able to prove me wrong with facts.

See this post for a memory refresh :
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107265445&postcount=1909
Read it :rolleyes:




You haven't read my post properly .
I put it back here, so you can read it :rolleyes:





For the rest , nothing new, you just forgot to mention " ballots boxes from Alibaba ":rolleyes:

None of these are referendums on independence. Just because one political party or combination of parties has more seats, this does not mean that a majority were in favour of independence. If all those parties were campaigning on independence then why isn’t there only one Independence Party? If everyone is in agreement and the only issue is independence then there should be on Independence Party but instead there are about twenty because they can’t even agree amongst themselves.

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

Funny how you dodge asking that question yourself since what a nation is seems to be such a massive deal to you given how much you bring it up.

For me this whole mess could be sorted out if both sides would sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution. But Madrid currently and has for some time preferred to act in a heavy handed way which has just served to inflame the situation.

It seems from the polls I have seen that things are slightly in favour of Catalonia staying in Spain I think 48-44 in terms of staying was the most recent one I saw. So I do not see why they are so worried about any referendum on independence. It looks like Madrid would win. Having said that clearly the margins are close either way and that for me means that the 2 sides really need to sit down and negotiate an adjustment in Catalonia's relationship with Spain to bring a proper resolution to the situation that is good for everyone be they Spanish or Catalan.

I never said Catalonia is a nation so why do you expect me to prove it?

As for a referendum on independence, they could have a legal referendum tomorrow but first need to pass a bill in the Catalan parliament with a 2/3 majority. This is what they have been unable to from the start and which kicked off the whole crisis because independence politicians have consistently broken their own laws.

is_that_so

eire4 wrote: »

Funny how you dodge asking that question yourself since what a nation is seems to be such a massive deal to you given how much you bring it up.

For me this whole mess could be sorted out if both sides would sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution. But Madrid currently and has for some time preferred to act in a heavy handed way which has just served to inflame the situation.

It seems from the polls I have seen that things are slightly in favour of Catalonia staying in Spain I think 48-44 in terms of staying was the most recent one I saw. So I do not see why they are so worried about any referendum on independence. It looks like Madrid would win. Having said that clearly the margins are close either way and that for me means that the 2 sides really need to sit down and negotiate an adjustment in Catalonia's relationship with Spain to bring a proper resolution to the situation that is good for everyone be they Spanish or Catalan.

Polls are now down to 47% for independence and likely to fall. Madrid will not sanction a legal referendum, certainly not in the way it's being demanded and economic issues and control offer the only realistic route.
Here's a piece from a couple of years ago on expenditure and investment. They do seem to have some grievances but necessarily what they believe or imagine.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/26/inenglish/1506410252_592782.html

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The Economic Intelligence Unit is just a magazine.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If everyone is in agreement and the only issue is independence then there should be on Independence Party but instead there are about twenty because they can’t even agree amongst themselves.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As for a referendum on independence, they could have a legal referendum tomorrow

Other proves , if needed, that there is a serious lack of knowledge about the subject ...

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As for a referendum on independence, they could have a legal referendum tomorrow but first need to pass a bill in the Catalan parliament with a 2/3 majority. This is what they have been unable to from the start and which kicked off the whole crisis because independence politicians have consistently broken their own laws.

Again ?

Why don't you read the posts that explain everything about the subject, instead of copying and paste always the same hoax ?


I know you don't speak Spanish or Catalan, and it is not straight forward to understand all the details , but everything has been explained to you many times already in plain English .( Yes, the links are in Spanish or Catalan, I didn't find any in English , sorry )



Once again :



The Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of majority to pass a bill .


They did it last time for the " Llei del referèndum d'autodeterminació de Catalunya " the 6th of Sept 2017 , and this way of passing the bill has been declared legal by the Spanish Tribunal Constitucional .
What do you want more ?
See here 2 pieces of paper : ( links already given . Please read them ! )


https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/po...713229236.html


https://www.ara.cat/politica/TC-decl...915008642.html


As said before too, this way of passing laws are used extensively by all parties in Spain too .
The Spanish Constitution has been modified the exact way , in " lectura unica "

( Reform of the Art 135 , the 26th of August 2011 ) .
Read the " Iniciativa " chapter on this link :


http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/reforma/segunda_reforma.htm


I let you do your homework about the " lectura unica " if you are interested .
One exemple of explanation ( In Spanish, sorry ...)

http://www.enciclopedia-juridica.com/d/procedimiento-de-lectura-%C3%BAnica/procedimiento-de-lectura-%C3%BAnica.htm


So now you know all that, please stop the hoax of the " 2/3 majority ".


I know that " they don't have the 2/3 required " is the perfect excuse and an easy answer to block the aspirations of the Catalans, but it is just legally not true .

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Again ?

Why don't you read the posts that explain everything about the subject, instead of copying and paste always the same hoax ?


I know you don't speak Spanish or Catalan, and it is not straight forward to understand all the details , but everything has been explained to you many times already in plain English .( Yes, the links are in Spanish or Catalan, I didn't find any in English , sorry )

Once again :

The Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of majority to pass a bill .


They did it last time for the " Llei del referèndum d'autodeterminació de Catalunya " the 6th of Sept 2017 , and this way of passing the bill has been declared legal by the Spanish Tribunal Constitucional .
What do you want more ?
See here 2 pieces of paper : ( links already given . Please read them ! )


https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/po...713229236.html

https://www.ara.cat/politica/TC-decl...915008642.html

As said before too, this way of passing laws are used extensively by all parties in Spain too .
The Spanish Constitution has been modified the exact way , in " lectura unica "

( Reform of the Art 135 , the 26th of August 2011 ) .
Read the " Iniciativa " chapter on this link :
http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/reforma/segunda_reforma.htm
I let you do your homework about the " lectura unica " if you are interested .
One exemple of explanation ( In Spanish, sorry ...)
http://www.enciclopedia-juridica.com/d/procedimiento-de-lectura-%C3%BAnica/procedimiento-de-lectura-%C3%BAnica.htm
So now you know all that, please stop the hoax of the " 2/3 majority ".
I know that " they don't have the 2/3 required " is the perfect excuse and an easy answer to block the aspirations of the Catalans, but it is just legally not true .

It is a simple statement of fact that article 56 of the Catalan Statute of Autonomy requires a two thirds majority to pass any legislation on independence. The link to the statute in English from the Catalan Parliaments own website is here where it clearly states:

The electoral system is regulated by an Act of Parliament approved by a final vote on the full text by a majority of two thirds of the Members of Parliament.

I don’t know what part of that isn’t clear but even if you don’t accept my word for it, The Economist, the magazine which you just referred to in your last post. An article from them here states:

Catalonia’s own autonomy statute, which Mr Puigdemont’s law would replace, can only be amended by a two-thirds majority of its parliament

Even Wikipedia, which you can go and edit yourself here states:

After being suspended, the law was finally declared void on 17 October, being also illegal according to the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia which requires a two third majority, 90 seats, in the Catalan parliament for any change to Catalonia's status.

So how is it that numerous news publications, the Statute of Autonomy, the Spanish Constitution, Judges, legal professionals and legal scholars have all got it wrong when they say a two thirds majority is required to pass any legislation on independence and you with your great legal mind have demolished all these experts opinions by copying and pasting unrelated random links and articles from around the internet?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I don’t know what part of that isn’t clear but even if you don’t accept my word for it, The Economist, the magazine which you just referred to in your last post. An article from them here states:
Even Wikipedia, which you can go and edit yourself here states:

Seriously now, that's all ? An article from an English financial magazine and an article of Wikipedia ?
I'm afraid you'll need a bit more of " meat " to convince people ....

- About the Economist : I don't deny they might do a good job on their field, the " economic stuff " , but let me have my doubts when they report something tricky like the Catalan legal system . I have strong doubts that they have a clue about the subject, TBH .

And no, I haven't " just referred to it in your last post " . I don't know what you are at, at imagining things like this ...

- Wikipedia : yep, exactly as you say : " which you can go and edit yourself " . ( and this doesn't ring a bell, no ? )

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It is a simple statement of fact that article 56 of the Catalan Statute of Autonomy requires a two thirds majority to pass any legislation on independence. The link to the statute in English from the Catalan Parliaments own website is here where it clearly states:

First, it's not the 56 , but the 56.2 ...

And yes,thank you, I'm well aware of it, since it's me you told which article it was , and where to find it , when you were lost at posting out-of-date articles from the out-of-date Statute from 1979 .

You remember ?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105934261&postcount=1671

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So how is it that numerous news publications, the Statute of Autonomy, the Spanish Constitution, Judges, legal professionals and legal scholars have all got it wrong when they say a two thirds majority is required to pass any legislation on independence and you with your great legal mind have demolished all these experts opinions by copying and pasting random links and articles from Catalonian nationalist and extremist news organisations?

Ah ? El Diario ? the website of El Congreso ? enciclopedia-juridica.com ? are " Catalonian nationalist and extremist news organisations " No me digas !

Back to serious : No, I never said that these law texts are wrong.

But what you have to understand is that the law texts works together. There is not one unique text that says everything.

The same way than " not everything is in the Constitution" , " everything is not in the Statute of Autonomy text "

One text can complete / amend /modifies another text without problems .
All law texts in all countries works like this.


All these law texts says two things :

1)- A way of passing a piece of legislation is through the 2/3 majority .

" A " way.

Not " THE ONLY" way ( and it is where you got lost...)

2) There is other ways to pass a piece of legislation . One of them is what is called " la lectura unica " .
It requires only a simple majority, and it's as legal as the other ways.

The fact that the Constitutionnal Court of Spain didn't sanction the " lectura unica " of the Catalan Parliement should ring a bell ( link provided already . Read it ! )

The fact that No Catalan politician has been convinced for having use the " lectura unica " should ring a bell . ( Believe me, if the Spanish judges would have something on that, they would have jump on it ! )

The fact that the Spanish Constitution has been modified using the " lectura unica " should ring a ( big ) bell too. ( link provided already . Read it ! )
Anfd when you think of it, honestly, don't you think they had an army of layers looking at all these details at the time ???

PS : This " lectura unica " way is not unique in Europe . Although slightly different, there is the Article 49.3 of the 1958 Constitution in France for their National Assembly for exemple .

So, once again, and again, the Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of majority to pass a bill .
They can use legally the " lectura unica "way , with a simple majority .

I strongly hope you got it all right this time ! ( because I'm not paid for that, you know... )

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

That's what I said

Me too, so I'm happy we finally agree on something .


Back to Euskal Herria. At the opposite of PNV, Jon Iñarritu ( EH Bildu ) doesn't count his time and energy to help the Catalans sorting out " the mess ", as you said. In the offices and in the street .



Another prove, if needed, that the Catalan independence movement is not a "bourgeoise " one, as some people short of arguments would say ... :rolleyes:

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Seriously now, that's all ? An article from an English financial magazine and an article of Wikipedia ?

I'm afraid you'll need a bit more of " meat " to convince people ....

- About the Economist : I don't deny they might do a good job on their field, the " economic stuff " , but let me have my doubts when they report something tricky like the Catalan legal system . I have strong doubts that they have a clue about the subject, TBH .

And no, I haven't " just referred to it in your last post " . I don't know what you are at, at imagining things like this ...

- Wikipedia : yep, exactly as you say : " which you can go and edit yourself " . ( and this doesn't ring a bell, no ? )



First, it's not the 56 , but the 56.2 ...

And yes,thank you, I'm well aware of it, since it's me you told which article it was , and where to find it , when you were lost at posting out-of-date articles from the out-of-date Statute from 1979 .

You remember ?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105934261&postcount=1671




Ah ? El Diario ? the website of El Congreso ? enciclopedia-juridica.com ? are " Catalonian nationalist and extremist news organisations " No me digas !

Back to serious : No, I never said that these law texts are wrong.No need to distort things here ...

What you have to understand is that the law texts works together. There is not one unique text that says everything.

The same way than " not everything is in the Constitution" ( Catalonia being recognize by Spain as a nation, for example ) , " everything is not in the Statute of Autonomy text "

One text can complete / amend /modifies another text without problems .

All law texts in all countries works like this.


All these law texts says two things :

1)- A way of passing a piece of legislation is through the 2/3 majority .

" A " way.

Not " THE ONLY" way ( and it is where you got lost...)

2) There is other ways to pass a piece of legislation . One of them is what is called " la lectura unica " , or " via express "

This way requires only a simple majority, and it's as legal as the other ways.

The fact that the Constitutionnal Court of Spain didn't sanction the " lectura unica " of the Catalan Parliement should ring a bell ( link provided already . Read it ! )

The fact that No Catalan politician has been convinced for having use the " lectura unica " should ring a bell . ( Believe me, if the Spanish judges would have something on that, they would have jump on it ! )

The fact that the Spanish Constitution has been modified using the " lectura unica " should ring a ( big ) bell too. ( link provided already . Read it ! )
And when you think of it, honestly, don't you think they had an army of layers looking at all these details at the time ???

PS : This " lectura unica " way is not unique in Europe . Although slightly different, there is the Article 49.3 of the 1958 Constitution in France for their National Assembly for exemple .

So, once again, and again, the Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of majority to pass a bill .
They can use legally the " lectura unica "way , with a simple majority .


I strongly hope you got it all right this time ! ( because I'm not paid for that, you know... jejeje ... )

I gave you the text to the Article 56 of the Statute of Autonomy. I've quoted and directed to you in plain English how a two thirds majority is required to hold a referendum on independence but you again refuse to accept reality and make illegible posts and other ramblings about unrelated legal text.

As I pointed out to you, if Wikipedia is wrong then you or some of your fellow supporters, who are all over the internet posting misleading and false information, should be jumping at the opportunity to correct the record on Wikipedia but I'm guessing that you won't be able to because facts are not on your side.

The link I provided is the 2006 statute but again you are trying to be deliberately misleading by saying I linked to an old statute. Here it is again, the link to Article 56 from the statute of autonomy is here https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/150259.pdf. This is the most recent version of the statute which is the same version I posted previously and it states:

The electoral system is regulated by an Act of Parliament approved by a final vote on the full text by a majority of two thirds of the Members of Parliament.

If you can show me a different statute, with amendments, that comes from the official Generalitat website and not some made up half copied half pasted text from a mishmash of Catalan nationalist websites then I will happily admit I was wrong. But reality is you won't be able to provide one because it doesn't exist.

saabsaab

Legalities or otherwise are a red herring. Ireland did not have a legal basis for 1916 or 1919. In fact the new state was not recognized by other states until after the Anglo-Irish treaty was ratified. Such is the way with the establishment of new states.

Catalan independence may follow a similar path.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

Legalities or otherwise are a red herring. Ireland did not have a legal basis for 1916 or 1919. In fact the new state was not recognized by other states until after the Anglo-Irish treaty was ratified. Such is the way with the establishment of new states.

Catalan independence may follow a similar path.

A red herring, is that an attempt to sound intelligent because it makes no sense? The other thing that makes no sense is when you trivialise Ireland’s struggle for independence by comparing British imperialism and hundreds of years of oppression, wiping out the native language and ethnic cleansing to modern day Spain where people in Catalonia have more autonomy than most other regions in the EU, where they have the right to speak the language they choose and enjoy the highest living standards in the country.

Btw, if you really knew your Irish history you would know that 1916 was brought about by the illegal actions of Carson and the Ulster covenant which bear more of a resemblance to the same actions carried out by independence politicians in Catalonia.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I gave you the text to the Article 56 of the Statute of Autonomy. I've quoted and directed to you in plain English how a two thirds majority is required to hold a referendum on independence but you again refuse to accept reality and make illegible posts and other ramblings about unrelated legal text.

Que fuerte.... !!! :eek:

All these links about the article 56.2 and the 2006 Statute of Autonomy were given by me in 2017 and it's me who explain to you how all this works ! ( and still does, by the way )

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

The only thing you gave here was a broken link towards the 1979 Statute !


I just note that you have nothing to backup your assertions , nothing , a part of Wiki and a magazine article...

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As I pointed out to you, if Wikipedia is wrong then you or some of your fellow supporters, who are all over the internet posting misleading and false information, should be jumping at the opportunity to correct the record on Wikipedia but I'm guessing that you won't be able to because facts are not on your side. .

Yes, sure... for having to change it again the day after because an obtuse unionist erased everything ...

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If you can show me a different statute, with amendments, that comes from the official Generalitat website and not some made up half copied half pasted text from a mishmash of Catalan nationalist websites then I will happily admit I was wrong. But reality is you won't be able to provide one because it doesn't exist.

" a mishmash of Catalan nationalist websites " : please stop spreading lies and being irrespectfull , thanks.



So you are saying that , if I show you an official text of law from the official website of the Generalitat , that cancel the article 56.2 from the Statute of Autonomy , you will " happily admit you were wrong " ?


Is that what you are saying ?



I'll tell you the answer straight away : No, you won't admit it !


If ever this official text existed, with proves and all, you won't admit you were wrong, I know that ...

First, in Catalan, you wouldn't even understand it, and even translated, you wouldn't even know at what it is related ...



So unless you prove me wrong on that one, there is no point really....


Anyway, I noted that you still have nothing as serious proves or facts to backup your assertions.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A red herring, is that an attempt to sound intelligent because it makes no sense? The other thing that makes no sense is when you trivialise Ireland’s struggle for independence by comparing British imperialism and hundreds of years of oppression, wiping out the native language and ethnic cleansing to modern day Spain where people in Catalonia have more autonomy than most other regions in the EU, where they have the right to speak the language they choose and enjoy the highest living standards in the country.

Btw, if you really knew your Irish history you would know that 1916 was brought about by the illegal actions of Carson and the Ulster covenant which bear more of a resemblance to the same actions carried out by independence politicians in Catalonia.

You accuse me of not making sense! Yes 0 there are comparisons but living standards and language were not factors in our revolution. Do you claim to know the reasons for 1916? Carson had little to do with the reasons for the rising!

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Que fuerte.... !!! :eek:

All these links about the article 56.2 and the 2006 Statute of Autonomy were given by me in 2017 and it's me who explain to you how all this works ! ( and still does, by the way )

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

The only thing you gave here was a broken link towards the 1979 Statute !


I just note that you have nothing to backup your assertions , nothing , a part of Wiki and a magazine article...







Yes, sure... for having to change it again the day after because an obtuse unionist erased everything ...






" a mishmash of Catalan nationalist websites " : please stop spreading lies and being irrespectfull , thanks.



So you are saying that , if I show you an official text of law from the official website of the Generalitat , that cancel the article 56.2 from the Statute of Autonomy , you will " happily admit you were wrong " ?


Is that what you are saying ?



I'll tell you the answer straight away : No, you won't admit it !


If ever this official text existed, with proves and all, you won't admit you were wrong, I know that ...

First, in Catalan, you wouldn't even understand it, and even translated, you wouldn't even know at what it is related ...



So unless you prove me wrong on that one, there is no point really....


Anyway, I noted that you still have nothing as serious proves or facts to backup your assertions.

Nothing wrong with the links I’ve posted. You do realise that other posters can just click on the link to see it works and proves what you’re saying is clearly not true and yes the independence movement in Catalonia is a nationalist movement based on an ethnic linguistic superiority with selfish economic motives.

So an obtuse unionist changed the Wikipedia page and you haven’t been able to change it back? Surely out of all those 2 million oppressed Catalans, some of them would have tried to correct it considering how they want to show the world how oppressed they are and considering the amount of propaganda they post online, Wikipedia is a very big website surely independence activists would have corrected this obvious error?

Yes I will admit I was wrong, now can you just post the link to the updated statute from the Generalitat website, not a badly formatted copy and paste but the actual link to the statute which shows the amendments to article 56 showing that a 2/3 majority is not required. Specifically the amended text to article 56. The links I provided were available on the Generalitat website in several languages so surely your more official updated version will be there also.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

You accuse me of not making sense! Yes 0 there are comparisons but living standards and language were not factors in our revolution. Do you claim to know the reasons for 1916? Carson had little to do with the reasons for the rising!

You need to use this mid term break to study for your Irish history leaving cert exam or things won’t go well for you come June.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You need to use this mid term break to study for your Irish history leaving cert exam or things won’t go well for you come June.

Smart ass comment.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the links I’ve posted. You do realise that other posters can just click on the link to see it works and proves what you’re saying is clearly not true

Yes, I think the ones that click on the links have a fair idea of what is going on , yes.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So an obtuse unionist changed the Wikipedia page and you haven’t been able to change it back? Surely out of all those 2 million oppressed Catalans, some of them would have tried to correct it considering how they want to show the world how oppressed they are and considering the amount of propaganda they post online, Wikipedia is a very big website surely independence activists would have corrected this obvious error?

Change " 2 Millions of Catalans " by " 40 Millions of Spaniards", you'll get the same result.


As a prove that your link can't be trusted : this obvious error doesn't appear on the more specific subject of the Law on the Referendum on Self-determination of Catalonia .



At the opposite, it clearly said that the Referendum Law was legal : " Some months later the Spanish Constitutional Court endorsed the reform of the Parliament regulation that allowed passing the law " .


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Self-determination_of_Catalonia


So,we have two pages of Wikipedia in English talking about the same thing, but saying the opposite.:D:D:D


So no, once again, your " proves " with Wikipedia clearly don't work !

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Yes I will admit I was wrong, now can you just post the link to the updated statute from the Generalitat website, not a badly formatted copy and paste but the actual link to the statute which shows the amendments to article 56 showing that a 2/3 majority is not required. Specifically the amended text to article 56. The links I provided were available on the Generalitat website in several languages so surely your more official updated version will be there also.

You are retreating there...
How do you want me to post a new or an update Statute ? There is none ...
The current Statute is the 2006 one , until the next one.

It doesn't make sense, it's like asking for the new future Irish Constitution ...:rolleyes:


You can only ask for new legal texts that are able to be decide by the Parliement.



So , to copy your idea : any legal text that went out of the Parliement, that amend the article 56 , and therefore shows that a 2/3 majority is not required .


Can you promise you will admit you were wrong ?
( I strongly doubt it !!! )

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes, I think the ones that click on the links have a fair idea of what is going on , yes.





Change " 2 Millions of Catalans " by " 40 Millions of Spaniards", you'll get the same result.


As a prove that your link can't be trusted : this obvious error doesn't appear on the more specific subject of the Law on the Referendum on Self-determination of Catalonia .



At the opposite, it clearly said that the Referendum Law was legal : " Some months later the Spanish Constitutional Court endorsed the reform of the Parliament regulation that allowed passing the law " .


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Self-determination_of_Catalonia


So,we have two pages of Wikipedia in English talking about the same thing, but saying the opposite.:D:D:D


So no, once again, your " proves " with Wikipedia clearly don't work !








You are retreating there...
How do you want me to post a new or an update Statute ? There is none ...
The current Statute is the 2006 one , until the next one.

It doesn't make sense, it's like asking for the new future Irish Constitution ...:rolleyes:


You can only ask for new legal texts that are able to be decide by the Parliement.



So , to copy your idea : any legal text that went out of the Parliement, that amend the article 56 , and therefore shows that a 2/3 majority is not required .


Can you promise you will admit you were wrong ?
( I strongly doubt it !!! )

That was a very long winded meaningless post but where is the Statute of Autonomy that doesn’t require the two thirds majority?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That was a very long winded meaningless post but where is the Statute of Autonomy that doesn’t require the two thirds majority?

You are clearly retreating there

bertie 56

eire4 wrote: »

Funny how you dodge asking that question yourself since what a nation is seems to be such a massive deal to you given how much you bring it up.

For me this whole mess could be sorted out if both sides would sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution. But Madrid currently and has for some time preferred to act in a heavy handed way which has just served to inflame the situation.

It seems from the polls I have seen that things are slightly in favour of Catalonia staying in Spain I think 48-44 in terms of staying was the most recent one I saw. So I do not see why they are so worried about any referendum on independence. It looks like Madrid would win. Having said that clearly the margins are close either way and that for me means that the 2 sides really need to sit down and negotiate an adjustment in Catalonia's relationship with Spain to bring a proper resolution to the situation that is good for everyone be they Spanish or Catalan.

I share your analyse . The actual problem is that in the Spanish side, they have more to win in terms of votes the 10th if they let the situation as it is, instead of sitting down around a table and start to talk.
That is the sad reality of it.
Yes, some negotiation is badly needed. Yes, Sanchez should accept the dialogue that Torra and the Catalan society are asking.
And yes, the best way is to organize a legal referendum, with a result accepted by everybody .
That's what the independentist side is trying to do for the last 10 years without success.
Will the new elected politicians change something about it after the 10th ?

I doubt it...

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

You are clearly retreating there . As I said, I knew that from the start ...


But to answer to your question , there is none ( wait, it's not finish...)


To continue and enhance your knowledge ( because last time you stopped there ) ,here are some more questions that you should ask :


- Is it possible to make a law that amend one or more articles of the Statute of Autonomy ? - YES -

- Is it possible to make a law that amend the article 56.2 related to the 2/3 majority ? - YES -

- Is it possible to pass this law legally in the Parliement ? - YES -

- Is this law legal regarding the Catalan laws ? - YES -

- Is it true that after this law , the 2/3 majority is not required ? - YES -

- Is the simple majority required instead ? - YES -

- Is this has ever been done ? - YES -

- Is this law , in what it contents, be stronger than the Statute of Autonomy , then ? - YES -

- Does this law goes above the Statute of Autonomy ? - YES -

- Is it an official law ? -YES -

- Is the law written in the Generalitat website ? - YES -

- Do you have the exact name and date and relevant articles of this law ? - YES -

- Can you provide it if I ask ? - YES - ( if asked politely - jejeje ...)

- Is there any press articles that talk about this law ? - YES -

- Is the press articles are from Spain too ? - YES -

- Is the law in English ? - NO -

Now you have some answers ...


From your side , do you have any other proves or facts , a part of the link of the financial magazine and the link of Wikipedia to prove your point ?


If no, I'm afraid we have to conclude by the following , once again :

The Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of majority to pass a law text , a simple majority is enough


Last thing : did you finally find the name of the school book about the " Erbro " river ,as you say, before I put it as " bulo " in the pile with the others ?

The only person who retreated is Carles Puidgemont.

Your posts make zero sense and are completely illegible.

You cannot amend a law that requires a two thirds majority by attempting to pass a law that says you only need a simple majority. By your logic, a party with only 1% of the seats could pass a law saying "we only need 1% of the parliamentary vote to pass our legislation"

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The only person who retreated is Carles Puidgemont.

Your posts make zero sense and are completely illegible.

You cannot amend a law that requires a two thirds majority by attempting to pass a law that says you only need a simple majority. By your logic, a party with only 1% of the seats could pass a law saying "we only need 1% of the parliamentary vote to pass our legislation"

You seem fond of saying others make zero sense when they don't agree with you!

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Your posts make zero sense and are completely illegible.

You cannot amend a law that requires a two thirds majority by attempting to pass a law that says you only need a simple majority. By your logic, a party with only 1% of the seats could pass a law saying "we only need 1% of the parliamentary vote to pass our legislation"

Well, sorry if you don't understand , I can't simplify more without finishing at a " Beano " level.


Since you pretend to know about Catalan laws , can you tell me if a legislation text can be pass in single majority in the Parliement ? And under which conditions ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, sorry if you don't understand , I can't simplify more without finishing at a " Beano " level.

Since you pretend to know about Catalan laws , can you tell me if a legislation text can be pass in single majority in the Parliement ? And under which conditions ?

Again, your post is incomprehensible.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

You seem fond of saying others make zero sense when they don't agree with you!

Have you tried to read any of @bertie_56 posts. Irrespective of the English, his posts are just rambling nonsense that he makes up as he goes along. Just take 5 mins and try and read our respective replies to one another and who comes across as more rational? This will give you and idea of what you're dealing with across Catalonia with independence advocates. Refusal to accept facts or rational argument.

If on the other hand you think I'm being unreasonable, which one of my posts do you not agree with or have I got wrong?