Catalan independence referendum, 2017

Barna77

marieholmfan wrote: »

The Catalans are learning that freedom must be bought with blood.

Independentistas are pretty much waiting until some fool throws him/herself under a police van and get killed to have a martyr.

is_that_so

bertie 56 wrote: »

Every registered voter of Catalonia was invited to vote, and there is no law in Spain or Catalonia that invalidate a referendum based on the turnout.

It was declared illegal in advance, which the national government can do. Low turnout does remove credibility straight off. 90% of the 40% who voted opted for yes. Current support is 47% in favour, which is down on where it was. Given the divisive nature of it it's not a number you'd expect to change very much.

is_that_so

bertie 56 wrote: »

After a week of demonstrations, and the disproportionate use of violence by the Police , here is the toll :


- 579 people got hurt , one is between life and death, another one in intensive care after being run over by a police van.

- 4 people lost an eye , due to the extensive illegal use of the prohibited rubber bullets by the police.

- 179 people arrested and detained, one of them being a journalist ( from El Pais ).

- 21 people ( more ! ) are in jail.



Freedom of press :



58 journalists has been hurt so far , despite wearing clear Hi-vi vests with " PRESS " signs on them. Some testimonies and videos show clearly that these signs doesn't prevent the kicks of police batons.

One photo-journalist ( El Pais ) has been violently arrested Thursday doing his job.
He was taking pictures of a violent beating of a young man by the police at the time. Some colleagues around him weren't able to avoid the arrest, despite showing that he was a journalist on duty. We don't know yet if the pictures has been erased by the police in his camera .
( For more information * : Google search : ccma.cat - key words : detingut-un-fotoperiodista-de-el-pais-mentre-cobria-els-aldarulls-a-la-via-laietana )

A complain has been made by the European Federation of Journalists and the International Federation of Journalists to the Council of Europe about the journalists situation .
(for full report * : Google search : media.cat - key words : recompte-agressions-periodistes-protestes-sentencia )



Freedom of expression - rights to demonstrate :


The website of Tsunami Democratic has been closed this week by the Spanish High Court for " terrorism."

Tsunami Democratic is the online platform that coordinate the demonstrations in Catalonia since Monday ( although being older than that )

Their veto is civil and non violent disobedience from the beginning ,and the movement is now made of 330.000 members , growing every day...

It has been lauched this Monday at a big scale by a video of Pep Guardiola ( Manchester City soccer trainer ) and ask for a dialogue between Catalonia and Spain , rejecting the violence. The video has been seen by more than 1.3M people . ( Search* Google with key words : "Pep Guardiola - tsunami" ).


A new mirror site has opened instantaneously identical at the previous one , and still with a chapter of non-violence and a link to dowload the app. ( that is the first " terrorist " web site that I see with a chapter on non-violence , by the way ! ).( Search* Google with key words " tsunami democratic github " )


Alerted on this abusive website closure, the European Commission has urged the Spanish authorities to "find the balance" between "guaranteeing freedom of expression and maintaining public order and security" after the Spanish National Court has ordered the closure of the website of the Democratic Tsunami.


More information on Democratic Tsunami , with the title : " Catalonia has created a new kind of online activism. Everyone should pay attention"

( in English, with a nerd / tech part : Search * Google wired.co.uk - key words " barcelonia-riots-catalonia-protests-news ".)


Freedom of expression again, the Communidad of Madrid has asked today to the Spanish Government the ban of all Madrid demonstrations on solidarity with Catalonia and in favor of dialogue.


Dialogue : After a call Monday, a call yesterday and a call today form Torra to propose to sit around a table , Sanchez still hasn't pick up the phone yet. ( and it's not a metaphor ...)









( * to conform with the new rules of the " Politics " forum about link posting , I won't post anymore the full link , but enough to find it . Please drop me a PM if you can't find one or more of those : no problem for me to give them fully in PM . Sorry about that ).

It's a money and autonomy thing basically. That's the only place dialogue would come. If they are serious about independence they also need to make people aware that it is effectively a Catexit.

marieholmfan

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So I’ll ask again. When was Catalonia a nation?

It is now and has always been a nation. The presence of Falangist Settlers from Castille and very welcome immigrants from North Africa (who almost to a man and woman support Catalonian independence) doesn't change that fact.

EagererBeaver

Barna77 wrote: »

Independentistas are pretty much waiting until some fool throws him/herself under a police van and get killed to have a martyr.

There's a clip of an absolute twat of a father brining his kids out to stand out in front of a police van and when the cops get out to tell him to **** off the cry is "hi ha nens!"

Don't bring your kids to a potential riot is usually fairly solid parenting advice.

EagererBeaver

marieholmfan wrote: »

It is now and has always been a nation. The presence of Falangist Settlers from Castille and very welcome immigrants from North Africa (who almost to a man and woman support Catalonian independence) doesn't change that fact.

Falangist settlers from Castille! I've heard it all now!

Immigration from the rest of Spain is what has driven Catalunya's economic success and prosperity!

I was at the demo on Friday evening at Gran Via con Passeig de Gràcia. There was a lad (in his 60s at least) carrying a sign that said "Imagine if Hitler won the war. Our reality is that Franco did". So wrong on so many levels.

This trend of trying to claim exclusive victimhood of Franco is a worrying, increasing characteristic of the independence movement in Catalunya.

Hector Savage

EagererBeaver wrote: »

There's a clip of an absolute twat of a father brining his kids out to stand out in front of a police van and when the cops get out to tell him to **** off the cry is "hi ha nens!"

Don't bring your kids to a potential riot is usually fairly solid parenting advice.

The poor kids, being brainwashed into this crap.

EagererBeaver

marieholmfan wrote: »

It is now and has always been a nation. The presence of Falangist Settlers from Castille and very welcome immigrants from North Africa (who almost to a man and woman support Catalonian independence) doesn't change that fact.

You have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever. Zero.

marieholmfan

EagererBeaver wrote: »

You have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever. Zero.

What on earth makes you say that?

marieholmfan

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Falangist settlers from Castille! I've heard it all now!

Immigration from the rest of Spain is what has driven Catalunya's economic success and prosperity!

I was at the demo on Friday evening at Gran Via con Passeig de Gràcia. There was a lad (in his 60s at least) carrying a sign that said "Imagine if Hitler won the war. Our reality is that Franco did". So wrong on so many levels.

This trend of trying to claim exclusive victimhood of Franco is a worrying, increasing character of the independence movement in Catalunya.

You have zero evidence for that. None, Nada.

Barna77

Hector Savage wrote: »

The poor kids, being brainwashed into this crap.

They are brainwashed at school already

EagererBeaver

marieholmfan wrote: »

What on earth makes you say that?

Well no, I do, because it's been written about. Extensively.

Also, the vast majority of internal Spanish migration to Catalunya has been from Aragon, Valencia, Murcia and Andalucía, so i have absolutely no idea who the **** these swarms of Castilian Falangists you're banging on about are.

Rather, is it perhaps more likely that you don't have a clue what you're talking about and are just here posting nonsense about an issue that you don't quite comprehend or understand?

Hector Savage

Barna77 wrote: »

They are brainwashed at school already

Don't I know it !

I have 2 kids in the school system here!!

:mad::mad:

Barna77

Hector Savage wrote: »

Don't I know it !

I have 2 kids in the school system here!!

:mad::mad:

I moved before they brainwashed me. So I am a fascist pig now.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I was at the demo on Friday evening at Gran Via con Passeig de Gràcia. There was a lad (in his 60s at least) carrying a sign that said "Imagine if Hitler won the war. Our reality is that Franco did". So wrong on so many levels.

This trend of trying to claim exclusive victimhood of Franco is a worrying, increasing characteristic of the independence movement in Catalunya.

And this is the result. They prefer to think that the rest of Spain had a jolly good time during Franco's dictatorship.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Hector Savage wrote: »

The poor kids, being brainwashed into this crap.

Barna77 wrote: »

They are brainwashed at school already

Barna77 wrote: »

I moved before they brainwashed me. So I am a fascist pig now.

And this is the result. They prefer to think that the rest of Spain had a jolly good time during Franco's dictatorship.

The brainwashing has been going on in Catalan schools for over twenty years. Kids are chastised for speaking Spanish in school and they teach them blatantly false historical information i.e. that the Ebro river "rises in a foreign land". Parents have had to take legal action against schools to ensure that their children receive their education in Spanish.

Catalonia is the only place in the western world where the majority of the population do not have the option of enrolling their children in schools that teach their native language. There is blatant indoctrination and anti Spanish sentiment in schools in Catalonia but ultimately it's their own kids who suffer the consequences because the standard of education in Catalonia is shocking.

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Independentistas are pretty much waiting until some fool throws him/herself under a police van and get killed to have a martyr.

Are you sure they are so bad ?

Are you sure they are not like you or me, normal persons that cherish life ?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

They teach them blatantly false historical information i.e. that the Ebro river "rises in a foreign land".

You were saying this 2 years ago already .
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105503847&postcount=1441

But I'm still waiting for the name of the book , and proves that this book is use to teach in Catalonia.
Without that, your example falls into what is call " bulo" , or " unfounded rumor" , adding it to the list already long ...

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Parents have had to take legal action against schools to ensure that their children receive their education in Spanish.

This makes me think of the couple who recently moved from town to the countryside and put the farmer next-door on trial because his rooster is making too much noise ... (true story, I think it was in France ? )

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia is the only place in the western world where the majority of the population do not have the option of enrolling their children in schools that teach their native language. There is blatant indoctrination and anti Spanish sentiment in schools in Catalonia but ultimately it's their own kids who suffer the consequences because the standard of education in Catalonia is shocking.

The thing is that there is no need to teach Spanish to kids. Everybody in Catalonia knows Spanish , the young population included, despite the fact that schools are in majority in Catalan.
The point of view , and the answer , of a Catalan on this question : Search : " Pol Gise . Dónde he aprendido a hablar castellano? " ( Where did I learn to speak Spanish ? )

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

(...) the standard of education in Catalonia is shocking.

A catchphrase like this one is useless if it's not followed by facts.
Specially when the facts are easily accessible after 3 clicks and says the complete opposite .
One example between many :

" Education : Catalonia exceeds the Spanish, European and OECD average in the PISA report .
" The PISA 2015 report , which evaluates the world education policy every three years, reveals that Catalonia exceeds the average of Spain, where the differences between communities reach abysmal 46 points, the European Union (EU) and that of the countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in the three basic competences: Reading Comprehension, Mathematics and Science . Catalan students have managed to exceed 500 points in the three tests carried out by the report."
From " El Periodico " 06/12/2016 . " Catalunya supera la media española, europea y de la OCDE en el informe PISA".

bertie 56

Hector Savage wrote: »

Don't I know it !

I have 2 kids in the school system here!!

:mad::mad:

I understand your deception, to have 2 small independantists at home !


( that was a friendly joke, and I count on your humor for not getting offended :cool: ) .


That said, can you tell us, in your opinion , what is wrong in this school system for your precise case ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

You were saying this 2 years ago already .
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105503847&postcount=1441

But I'm still waiting for the name of the book , and proves that this book is use to teach in Catalonia.
Without that, your example falls into what is call " bulo" , or " unfounded rumor" , adding it to the list already long ...


This makes me think of the couple who recently moved from town to the countryside and put the farmer next-door on trial because his rooster is making too much noise ... (true story, I think it was in France ? )


The thing is that there is no need to teach Spanish to kids. Everybody in Catalonia knows Spanish , the young population included, despite the fact that schools are in majority in Catalan.
The point of view , and the answer , of a Catalan on this question : Search : " Pol Gise . Dónde he aprendido a hablar castellano? " ( Where did I learn to speak Spanish ? )


.

Using your logic, we speak English in Ireland so therefore no need to teach English in schools.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

One example between many :

" Education : Catalonia exceeds the Spanish, European and OECD average in the PISA report .
" The PISA 2015 report , which evaluates the world education policy every three years, reveals that Catalonia exceeds the average of Spain, where the differences between communities reach abysmal 46 points, the European Union (EU) and that of the countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in the three basic competences: Reading Comprehension, Mathematics and Science . Catalan students have managed to exceed 500 points in the three tests carried out by the report."
From " El Periodico " 06/12/2016 . " Catalunya supera la media española, europea y de la OCDE en el informe PISA".

Is this the same article from the "fair and balanced" Catalan news? http://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/catalan-pupils-score-above-spain-eu-and-oecd-average-in-pisa-tests

Next.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Is this the same article from the "fair and balanced" Catalan news? http://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/catalan-pupils-score-above-spain-eu-and-oecd-average-in-pisa-tests

Next.

No, as already said , the source is :
From " El Periodico " 06/12/2016 . " Catalunya supera la media española, europea y de la OCDE en el informe PISA".

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Using your logic, we speak English in Ireland so therefore no need to teach English in schools.

Nothing to do, people in Ireland use only one language ( and a tiny bit of another one in some places ) .

bertie 56

Alerted by the disproportionate use of force by the Police in Catalonia , the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights declares tonight :
" We are worried about the attacks on journalists and the reported disproportionate use of force by police on demonstrators in Catalonia. "
" The Spanish authorities should protect the Freedom of expression and the Freedom of assembly "



During this time , the President of the Spanish Government came to Barcelona to visit the President of Catalonia few hurt policemen on the hospital.
He didn't visit any hurt demonstrators or hurt journalists.
He avoided carefully a meeting , and therefore once again the dialogue, with the President of Catalonia despite the invitation.



Tsunami Democràtic launched some non -violent demonstrations with this words : " Spain Sit and Talk ".


( The hashtag #SpainSitAndTalk was for a few hours number 1 on trends worldwide for Twitter )

EagererBeaver

Spanish politicians are spinning the Catalan crisis to suit their own interests:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/21/spanish-politicians-catalan-crisis-nationalism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_WhatsApp

Another good, balanced take on things here. The fecklessness of the Spanish politicians and the rank hypocrisy of the independista right called out in the open.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

No, as already said , the source is :
From " El Periodico " 06/12/2016 . " Catalunya supera la media española, europea y de la OCDE en el informe PISA".

But both newspaper are reporting the same report from the OCDE.

In Catalan News : " Catalan pupils have scored above the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), Spanish and EU average in the three PISA tests on science and technology, maths and reading comprehension. The latest PISA survey was published this Tuesday by the OECD."

PS : Just to be sure you understand : It is not El Periodico or CatalanNews that made the work and wrote the report , but the OCDE.

You can find the same conclusions about this report on El Pais too : " los resultados de Cataluña superan la media española, europea y de la OCDE"

PS2 : Just to be sure 2 : it is not El Pais that wrote the report neither., but the OCDE .


PS3 : OCDE ( Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) is not a Catalan organisation.

So why don't you post the report rather than two Catalan news organisations interpretation of the report?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Alerted by the disproportionate use of force by the Police in Catalonia , the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights declares tonight :
" We are worried about the attacks on journalists and the reported disproportionate use of force by police on demonstrators in Catalonia. "
" The Spanish authorities should protect the Freedom of expression and the Freedom of assembly "



During this time , the President of the Spanish Government came to Barcelona to visit the President of Catalonia few hurt policemen on the hospital.
He didn't visit any hurt demonstrators or hurt journalists.
He avoided carefully a meeting , and therefore once again the dialogue, with the President of Catalonia despite the invitation.



Tsunami Democràtic launched some non -violent demonstrations with this words : " Spain Sit and Talk ".


( The hashtag #SpainSitAndTalk was for a few hours number 1 on trends worldwide for Twitter )

Are the injured policemen not also Catalans?

Donnielighto

What's driving the independence movement. I'd heard it was just annoyance about rich area being a net contributor to state coffers but not sure where that's from.

Barna77

Donnielighto wrote: »

What's driving the independence movement. I'd heard it was just annoyance about rich area being a net contributor to state coffers but not sure where that's from.

The Basque Economic Agreement.

In the Basque Country they set and collect their own taxes and spend the money collected whichever way they want. Then they pay a so called "quota" to state coffers.

This is what drives Catalonia crazy.

jimmycrackcorm

Barna77 wrote: »

The Basque Economic Agreement.

In the Basque Country they set and collect their own taxes and spend the money collected whichever way they want. Then they pay a so called "quota" to state coffers.

This is what drives Catalonia crazy.

Is it not the case that the Callan separatists just want independence and won't just agree to similar treatment as the basques?

v638sg7k1a92bx

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Is it not the case that the Callan separatists just want independence and won't just agree to similar treatment as the basques?

Who knows but their arguments for independence appear completely illogical aside from the fact that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain and yet we still have posters on this thread who maintain that the "referendum" on October 1st 2017 was a legitimate referendum and the results an accurate reflection of the % of population in favour of independence.