Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that.

Beyond that I have consistently said that I believe the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution through negotiations. Sadly Madrid currently and for some time has seemed more interested in taking a heavy handed approach which has just inflamed the situation. As for any referendum polls suggest that it would be defeated so what are you worried about. A defeated referendum would significantly strengthen Madrid's hand in any negotiations that will hopefully come to pass sooner rather then later.

The legal process to hold a referendum already exists so what exactly is there to negotiate? Just like we do in Ireland when we hold a referendum, it first needs to pass in the Dail before the referendum is put to the general population. The Generalitat which is the parliament in Catalonia needs to do the same and not decide that because they cannot pass legislation in their own parliament that they are going to break the rules and decide to hold a referendum anyway. A referendum that had zero oversight where they slept in the polling stations, kept the ballot boxes in their homes, where people could vote as many times as they wanted and could even vote online. Imagine the pro life politicians in the Dail decided that they wanted to hold another referendum on abortion and because they couldn’t get enough votes in the Dail they decided to hold a referendum anyway under the same circumstances I just described and then declare the results legally binding, would you think that would be acceptable?. What part of that do people not seem to get their head around? The route to independence already exists but it has to be done legally.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

( ... ) The route to independence already exists but it has to be done legally.

I'll be happy to read about that .
What would be the different steps, from the beginning to the end , in a legal point of view ?

Both from the Catalan side and the Spanish side.
Thanks.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The legal process to hold a referendum already exists What part of that do people not seem to get their head around? The route to independence already exists but it has to be done legally.

and



There is no right to self determination in Spain. Self determination is a legal concept that doesn’t apply to Catalonia but that’s another inconvenient fact you choose to ignore.'


How are these two statements compatible? I don't believe they are.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Thank you for posting this as you've just shot yourself in the foot and highlighted what I've been saying since I started posting on this thread and the reason why the current independence movement is a fraud. As I have said numerous times and which a Joan Vintro professor of constitutional law at Unibersity of Barcelona has stated in the article which you provided.



http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf

saabsaab wrote: »

and



There is no right to self determination in Spain. Self determination is a legal concept that doesn’t apply to Catalonia but that’s another inconvenient fact you choose to ignore.'


How are these two statements compatible? I don't believe they are.

I’m sorry but has been explained multiple times. Just do a search for self determination on this thread and you’ll find the answer but consider this, if Catalonia became independent would the people within Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain and who consider themselves Spanish have a right to self determination to rejoin Spain? Surely their reasons for self determination are just as valid as the one being argued by Catalans within Spain, how would self determination work in that case?

You’re wasting valuable study time btw.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'll be happy to read about that .
What would be the different steps, from the beginning to the end , in a legal point of view ?

Both from the Catalan side and the Spanish side.
Thanks.

No problem. I’ve posted it here several times, you even inadvertently referred to it yourself to try and make a point but when I pointed out what it said you decided that you didn’t agree with it anymore.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Thank you for posting this as you've just shot yourself in the foot and highlighted what I've been saying since I started posting on this thread and the reason why the current independence movement is a fraud. As I have said numerous times and which a Joan Vintro professor of constitutional law at Unibersity of Barcelona has stated in the article which you provided.

http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf

As explained above, it is clear that the call for a referendum on the collective future of Catalonia linked to the beginning of a constitutional amendment is possible within the constitutional framework and the law.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I’m sorry but has been explained multiple times. Just do a search for self determination on this thread and you’ll find the answer but consider this, if Catalonia became independent would the people within Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain and who consider themselves Spanish have a right to self determination to rejoin Spain? Surely their reasons for self determination are just as valid as the one being argued by Catalans within Spain, how would self determination work in that case?

You’re wasting valuable study time btw.

More smartarse comment. How would the those in Ireland have a right to rejoint the UK? Similar point.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

More smartarse comment. How would the those in Ireland have a right to rejoint the UK? Similar point.

Ok then. So replace the word Ireland with Catalonia and the UK with Spain and you’ve just rebuked your own point.

saabsaab

'if Ireland became independent would the people within Ireland who want to remain part of the UK and who consider themselves British have a right to self determination to rejoin the UK? Surely their reasons for self determination are just as valid as the one being argued by Irish within the UK, how would self determination work in that case?'



As you suggested,


It shows that this scenario you depict doesn't make sense in any context, unless of course there was a majority within Ireland wishing to re-join the UK.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

'if Ireland became independent would the people within Ireland who want to remain part of the UK and who consider themselves British have a right to self determination to rejoin the UK? Surely their reasons for self determination are just as valid as the one being argued by Irish within the UK, how would self determination work in that case?'

As you suggested,

It shows that this scenario you depict doesn't make sense in any context, unless of course there was a majority within Ireland wishing to re-join the UK.

Which is why we have legal process, parliaments, legal referendums and not a minority of people declaring independence on the majority of people who want to remain part of Spain.

Like I said, run a search on self determination on the thread as I can't be bothered repeating it again.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Which is why we have legal process, parliaments, legal referendums and not a minority of people declaring independence on the majority of people who want to remain part of Spain.

Like I said, run a search on self determination on the thread as I can't be bothered repeating it again.

You are back to the same old assertion that a majority in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain!


The Catalans are entitled to self-determination. Perhaps a poll on boards to see who is believed?

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

You are back to the same old assertion that a majority in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain!


The Catalans are entitled to self-determination. Perhaps a poll on boards to see who is believed?

They definitely feel entitled.

A poll on boards? That’s the legal equivalent of what they did two years ago.
Why don’t you accept the result of the numerous polls that have a degree of reliability which show that most people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

No problem. I’ve posted it here several times, you even inadvertently referred to it yourself to try and make a point but when I pointed out what it said you decided that you didn’t agree with it anymore.

I let the readers here making their opinion about who posted the text first :rolleyes:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105599318&postcount=1568


( And you obviously didn't get my purpose of posting the text the first time ).




But you surely have another point of view, because you have copy and paste it back .


So can you tell us : Of the 3 possibilities that propose Joan Vintró , which one( s) could work ? ( taking in account that the document is old and some possibilities might have been tried already ) .


If there is other " route to independence in a legal way " that you could think of too, let us know.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

No problem. I’ve posted it here several times, you even inadvertently referred to it yourself to try and make a point

No. But I let the readers here making their opinion about that :
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105599318&postcount=1568

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I’ve posted it here several times (...) but when I pointed out what it said you decided that you didn’t agree with it anymore.

No. I never disagree with this text . Pure imagination ...

( And you obviously didn't get my purpose of posting the text the first time , jejeje ... ).


Anyway, you surely have another point of view, because you have copy and paste it back .

So can you tell us :

Of the 3 possibilities that propose Joan Vintró , which one( s) could work ? ( taking in account that the document is old and some possibilities might have been tried already ) .

If there is other " route to independence in a legal way " that you could think of too, let us know.
( For a change, some that doesn't need the full acceptance of the Spanish political class : it's too easy that way ... )

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why don’t you accept the result of the numerous polls that have a degree of reliability which show that most people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain?

Why don’t you accept the result of the numerous elections that have 100% of reliability which show that most people wants Catalonia to leave Spain ?




Back to the " degree of reliability " here, with a poll for the next general Spanish elections .( For An Ciarraioch, I know he loves that )






Independentists forces are up of 2 to 4 seats and could get 24 to 26 seats , thanks to the entrance of CUP . ( They have currently 22 seats since last April elections ) .
Cs is going down massively, from 5 to 2 . At a national level, they have 52 seats and according to another poll , they could get 20 seats only. That mean less at a national level than the independentists at a regional level . )

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Why don’t you accept the result of the numerous elections that have 100% of reliability which show that most people wants Catalonia to leave Spain ?




Back to the " degree of reliability " here, with a poll for the next general Spanish elections .( For An Ciarraioch, I know he loves that )






Independentists forces are up of 2 to 4 seats and could get 24 to 26 seats , thanks to the entrance of CUP . ( They have currently 22 seats since last April elections ) .
Cs is going down massively, from 5 to 2 . At a national level, they have 52 seats and according to another poll , they could get 20 seats only. That mean less at a national level than the independentists at a regional level . )

These are not referendum results but results of general elections. Again you are trying to be misleading.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

These are not referendum results but results of general elections. Again you are trying to be misleading.

No misleading here, I clearly wrote that I'm talking about elections.


More than a problem of numbers, it's a problem of intellectual honesty : now and in the past, you never recognize the fact that independentists are the majority in Catalonia, even when the polls where unanimously showing it. :rolleyes:


Now , to follow your logic :

There is 3 main independentists parties , from extrem left , centre left to center right ( so there is a choice of votes ).
All of them are independentists, with a clear program of aiming for the implantation of a Catalan Republic.
But, following your logic, the voters of these parties are not for the independence ?
( Would you vote for Sinn Fein if you are supporting Fine Gael ? )



More of " degree of reliability " : 2 demonstrations went on this week-end in Barcelona.


Satursday : 350.000 independentists


Sunday : 80.000 unionists with 400 + buses coming from Spain .( 400 buses = 20.000 persons ).
( Source for all numbers : Guàrdia Urbana Barcelona )

EagererBeaver

Bertie, you know fine well you're being facetious here.

Wow, more independistas were on the street. So what? People generally don't demonstrate in favour of the status quo, as they don't have to. It just...is.

General/Regional elections are not plebiscites on independence. Please stop presenting the results of these as such. It's getting very boring.

bertie 56

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Bertie, you know fine well you're being facetious here.

Wow, more independistas were on the street. So what? People generally don't demonstrate in favour of the status quo, as they don't have to. It just...is.

General/Regional elections are not plebiscites on independence. Please stop presenting the results of these as such. It's getting very boring.

About the demonstrations , you obviously missed the humoristic " More of " degree of reliability " of my post. .
Do I have to explain it ?



And about the results of elections , it's what we have and it's the only thing we have ( accepted by Spain )

Do I have to remind you that it's with these elections results that a country is run ? That the political decisions are made ?



Yes, an official result of an official referendum will be better ,of course.

Who's fault if we have none ??? :rolleyes:

What is very boring is to read continuously that unionism is the majority in Catalonia, knowing that they have won nothing in the last years in Catalonia. Very boring indead...

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

No misleading here, I clearly wrote that I'm talking about elections.

More than a problem of numbers, it's a problem of intellectual honesty : now and in the past, you never recognize the fact that independentists are the majority in Catalonia, even when the polls where unanimously showing it. :rolleyes:

Now , to follow your logic :

There is 3 main independentists parties , from extrem left , centre left to center right ( so there is a choice of votes ).
All of them are independentists, with a clear program of aiming for the implantation of a Catalan Republic.
But, following your logic, the voters of these parties are not for the independence ?
( Would you vote for Sinn Fein if you are supporting Fine Gael ? )

And why all around the world are we doing elections then, if polls were more accurate ?

More of " degree of reliability " : 2 demonstrations went on this week-end in Barcelona.

Satursday : 350.000 independentists
Sunday : 80.000 unionists with 400 + buses coming from Spain .( 400 buses = 20.000 persons ).

( Source for all numbers : Guàrdia Urbana Barcelona )

You're trying to conflate the results of a parliamentary general election as a poll for a single issue. That's why there are referendums on single issues and general elections to elect a parliament.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's why there are referendums on single issues and general elections to elect a parliament.

In a normal democracy, yes.



But in a flawed democracy like Spain, " referendums on single issues " are prohibited ( Catalonia 2009-2012-2014-2017 ) , and results of " general elections to elect a parliament " are not respected ( jail for the elected members Oriol Junqueras, Josep Rull, Jordi Turull ,Jordi Sànchez , Raül Romeva + 3 MEP )


And since you haven't answer to the question : when was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

In a normal democracy, yes.



But in a flawed democracy like Spain, " referendums on single issues " are prohibited ( Catalonia 2009-2012-2014-2017 ) , and results of " general elections to elect a parliament " are not respected ( jail for the elected members Oriol Junqueras, Josep Rull, Jordi Turull ,Jordi Sànchez , Raül Romeva + 3 MEP )


And since you haven't answer to the question : when was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

Ciudadanos won the last general election with the most seats. So they won and you lost.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Ciudadanos won the last general election with the most seats. So they won and you lost.

Are you sure they " won the last general election " ?

Why there is an independentist President then ?

And why the majority of seats are Independentists ?


Here is what Arrimadas, head of C's was declaring at the time :


( She was talking about proposing a C's candidate to the presidency of Catalonia ) :

"Si presentamos una candidatura y se ve que sólo nos votan 57 escaños, se va a visualizar que el independentismo es mucho más que el constitucionalismo"

"If we present a candidate and it is seen that onlywe have votes for only 57 seats, it will be seen that the independence movement is much more important than the constitutionalism one "


So, no, it wasn't this time neither ...:rolleyes:

Any other ideas ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Are you sure they " won the last general election " ?

Why there is an independentist President then ?

And why the majority of seats are Independentists ?


Here is what Arrimadas, head of C's was declaring at the time :


( She was talking about proposing a C's candidate to the presidency of Catalonia ) :

"Si presentamos una candidatura y se ve que sólo nos votan 57 escaños, se va a visualizar que el independentismo es mucho más que el constitucionalismo"

"If we present a candidate and it is seen that we have votes for only 57 seats, it will be seen that the independence movement is much more important than the constitutionalism one "


So, no, it wasn't this time neither ...:rolleyes:

Any other ideas ?

Who won more seats than Ciudadanos?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Who won more seats than Ciudadanos?

Why hedging the original question ?



Is C's " Unionism " , or just " A unionist party " ?


So back again :

bertie 56 wrote: »

When was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

That's all very nice but completely irrelevant.

You asked the very intelligent and mature question "when was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia" I answered by telling you that Ciudadanos won the most number of seats in the Catalan parliament at 36 which means they won and you lost.

Please note that "Independence" and "An independent party" are also two different things.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's all very nice but completely irrelevant.

You asked the very intelligent and mature question "when was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia" I answered by telling you that Ciudadanos won the most number of seats in the Catalan parliament at 36 which means they won and you lost.

Please note that "Independence" and "An independent party" are also two different things.

Irrelevant ? No.

You said wrongly that C's won the last general elections so I just put you the numbers showing that you are wrong. Nothing irrelevant there...


The thing is you are confusing Spanish general elections with Catalonia regional elections , that's all.
( and confusing me at trying to understand that ...:D)


I'm still not sure what you are talking about , but if you are now talking about the last Regional Elections of Catalonia from the 21st December 2017 , I still fail to see where Unionism has won :


Independentists : 2.079.340 votes - 70 seats

Unionists : 1.902.061 votes - 57 seats .


Hardly a " win ", isn't it ?


So it won't be this election neither , so back again :

bertie 56 wrote: »

When was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Does anyone know which political party has the most seats in the Catalan parliament?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Does anyone know which political party has the most seats in the Catalan parliament?

If you take them one by one , they are all of them in minority in the Parliament , unionists and independentists .


Are you trying to prove something about " a majority " with that ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

It's very simple. Does anyone know which party has the most number of seats in the Catalan parliament?

is_that_so

saabsaab wrote: »

You are back to the same old assertion that a majority in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain!


The Catalans are entitled to self-determination. Perhaps a poll on boards to see who is believed?

Polls suggest that they do, in larger numbers.The self-determination line here is clearly linked to an assumption that only Catalans live in Catalonia. Its already a minority by 10%-12%. That is falling with both internal migration and from outside the country.