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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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    #2072
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Nody wrote: »
    Sure
    But let me guess; the poll was rigged or something and the fact the separation parties got less than 40% in the last LEGAL election; but hey that's because hand waving something something I'm sure because admitting that it's not what the majority in the region can not be allowed to happen.


    About the poll :


    I don't have any doubts that it's an honest poll .

    But :
    1) it's just a poll , that gives an idea or show a tendancy, nothing more.

    2) If you read well, there is 1.4 % of difference between the 2 parties ( 48.6-47.2 )

    That is within the margin of error that was put at 3.1 percentage points, according to the article.

    So no, sorry, for 2 reasons, that is not what I call " a fact " .

    About " the last LEGAL election in Catalonia ", as you say :


    That was the local elections, the 26th of May 2019.


    And the results are the following :


    - Independentists : 1.478.582 votes


    - Unionists : 1.051.835 votes.


    So no, sorry, that is not what I call " you don't have a majority of the people behind the cause " .


    Let me know if you have something else ...


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    #2073
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Why not hold a poll again so? This time allow it and see what happens?

    They've held polls numerous times and each one shows that there is a majority in favour of remaining part of Spain.


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    #2074
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    They've held polls numerous times and each one shows that there is a majority in favour of remaining part of Spain.


    Please explain so? Quote from other post



    " the last LEGAL election in Catalonia ", as you say :


    That was the local elections, the 26th of May 2019.


    And the results are the following :


    - Independentists : 1.478.582 votes


    - Unionists : 1.051.835 votes.


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    #2075
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Just like Ireland looked for self-determination pre independence Catalonia is entitled to do the same. If this is denied or handled badly as with 1916 in Ireland the result will ultimately lead to violence.

    The glaring difference is that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain, the principle of self determination did not exist until 1941 - 35 years after 1916 and, this principle of self determination does not apply to Catalonia.


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    #2076
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Ireland is a country, nation and a sovereign state.

    Here's a definition:

    "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory"

    So how is the above not applicable to Catalonia?

    Why do you keep stonewalling and dodging a question I'm repeatedly asking you? Seeing as you do not view Catalonia a nation, then in your own words tell us what a nation is. Is this the 5th time of asking?

    You seem to wilfully ignore the fact that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain. So if I was to agree with you and say Catalonia was a nation, would the majority of the people in that nation who want to remain part of Spain have the right to self determine and unite again with Spain?


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    #2077
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Please explain so? Quote from other post



    " the last LEGAL election in Catalonia ", as you say :


    That was the local elections, the 26th of May 2019.


    And the results are the following :


    - Independentists : 1.478.582 votes


    - Unionists : 1.051.835 votes.

    I don't need to explain, I didn't post those results and the person who did is being very misleading when posting them because he is posting the results of a local election where there are numerous political parties who run on different issues, some of those are in favour of independence and some of them are not. These are not the results of a referendum so he is trying to misrepresent the results as if it was an outright vote on independence which it is not.


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    #2078
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    You seem to wilfully ignore the fact that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain. So if I was to agree with you and say Catalonia was a nation, would the majority of the people in that nation who want to remain part of Spain have the right to self determine and unite again with Spain?

    Once again trying to squirm out of answering the question.

    For about the 6th time, what's a nation, in your own words? You must know, seeing as you've repeatedly stated Catalonia is not a nation. So please do tell us what a nation actually is

    Any time now


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    #2079
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Why would self determination not apply?


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    #2080
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    I don't need to explain, I didn't post those results and the person who did is being very misleading when posting them because he is posting the results of a local election where there are numerous political parties who run on different issues, some of those are in favour of independence and some of them are not. These are not the results of a referendum so he is trying to misrepresent the results as if it was an outright vote on independence which it is not.

    Dismiss what doesn't suit. The usual old spiel

    We'll you should explain, seeing as you've no idea on how a referendum poll would actually go, despite your matter of fact opinions.


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    #2081
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Why would self determination not apply?

    If I remember correctly, it's something else he read somewhere and misinterpreted. No surprises there really


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    #2082
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    This is the sort of jargon Spain and their followers hide behind. What does follow the law mean in this context? Resigning yourself to having literally no available path to ever achieve even self-determination, ye?

    Seeing as you and others are big fans of proclaiming you've no problem with Catalonia obtaining independence as long as they do it lawfully, outline a lawful path they could take that could ever possibly achieve this, considering the remit of the Spanish constitution? Just more mealy mouthed bullsh!t

    The path to independence already exists both within the constitution and the Catalan statute of autonomy. I've posted about this umpteen times on this thread but there is a legal process to bring about those changes and the first thing that the independence parties need to do is gain a majority in their own parliament which they have been unable to do because the majority of people in Catalonia have not elected them to do so. It's that simple why is it so hard for you to understand.

    I'll explain it very simply. Legal process for independence exists but majority required first.


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    #2083
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The path to independence already exists both within the constitution and the Catalan statute of autonomy. I've posted about this umpteen times on this thread but there is a legal process to bring about those changes and the first thing that the independence parties need to do is gain a majority in their own parliament which they have been unable to do because the majority of people in Catalonia have not elected them to do so. It's that simple why is it so hard for you to understand.

    I'll explain it very simply. Legal process for independence exists but majority required first.

    What's a nation?


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    #2084
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    I don't need to explain, I didn't post those results and the person who did is being very misleading when posting them because he is posting the results of a local election where there are numerous political parties who run on different issues, some of those are in favour of independence and some of them are not. These are not the results of a referendum so he is trying to misrepresent the results as if it was an outright vote on independence which it is not.


    Trusting more the results of a poll , than the results of official elections ...

    Unbelievable ! ...

    :D:D:D


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    #2085
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Once again trying to squirm out of answering the question.

    For about the 6th time, what's a nation, in your own words? You must know, seeing as you've repeatedly stated Catalonia is not a nation. So please do tell us what a nation actually is

    Any time now

    You seem to be under some illusion that I'm here to be cross examined or to answer your questions. You have stated that Catalonia is a nation so the onus is on you to prove this assertion and saying that Catalonia is a nation because "one just is" doesn't cut it.

    If you believe Catalonia is a nation I'm happy to hear your arguments other than "one just is" bearing in mind that no other Country on the planet recognises Catalonia as a nation.

    Any time now


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    #2086
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Trusting more the results of a poll , than the results of official elections ...

    Unbelievable ! ...

    :D:D:D

    You been trusting the results of the fake referendum on Oct 1 stating that this is basis for independence and supported Puidgemont's declaration of independence so what does that say about you? Do you still think Catalonia is an independent country or have you changed your mind?


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    #2087
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    You seem to be under some illusion that I'm here to be cross examined or to answer your questions. You have stated that Catalonia is a nation so the onus is on you to prove this assertion and saying that Catalonia is a nation because "one just is" doesn't cut it.

    If you believe Catalonia is a nation I'm happy to hear your arguments other than "one just is" bearing in mind that no other Country on the planet recognises Catalonia as a nation.

    Any time now

    Post #2059 I supplied you with a definition, but you've willfully ignored that. Funny that. So repeating that I've only responded with "one just is" is disingenuous and "just doesn't cut it". And the whole "one just is" point that you keep bringing up is laughable, seeing as it continues to go over your head. The point of it basically is, a nation is not a political term.

    No your not here to be cross examined, but then what's the point of a discussion if only one side debates honestly, and the other just squirms around stonewalling questions. I've repeatedly stated why Catalonia is a nation, and over the years I've provided many definitions. You've repeatedly stated it is NOT a nation, but have failed to give any definitions or reasoning which shows it's NOT a nation. So the onus is actually on you to give a counter point to what you believe a nation to be.

    You see, how can you say, as a matter of fact, Catalonia is not a nation, when you don't even know what a nation is? If you do know what it is, then please tell us


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    #2088
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    So, if I got what you'r saying correctly you are in favour of a legal/proper referendum on Catalonian Independence?


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    #2089
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    You been trusting the results of the fake referendum on Oct 1 stating that this is basis for independence and supported Puidgemont's declaration of independence so what does that say about you? Do you still think Catalonia is an independent country or have you changed your mind?

    Do you still trust polls more than official elections?


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    #2090
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Do you still trust polls more than official elections?

    I accept the results of local, general and referendum results, none of which give a majority for independence.


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    #2091
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    saabsaab wrote: »
    So, if I got what you'r saying correctly you are in favour of a legal/proper referendum on Catalonian Independence?

    That’s what everyone is in favour of. Problem is that independence protesters and politicians have not been able to pass the required legislation to hold a legal referendum on independence because they haven’t been able to secure a majority in their own parliament in Catalonia so they’ve broken every rule in the book and bulled ahead anyway.


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    #2092
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Interesting how the PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) is stepping back and keeping distances from all this mess.
    They are more practical and are aiming for more MPs in Madrid after November general election.


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    #2093
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    I accept the results of local, general and referendum results, none of which give a majority for independence.

    Yet the election didn't give a majority for unionists.....


    What's a nation??


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    #2094
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Yet the election didn't give a majority for unionists.....


    What's a nation??

    Catalonia is already part of Spain, why would they need a majority? You seem to confuse parliamentary politics with referendums.

    You tell me, what is a nation and why is Catalonia considered in other than “one just is” and what other countries recognise Catalonia as a nation?

    Any day now


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    #2095
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Their parliament voted for separation (a slim majority) and Madrid then dissolved it. It seems that they only want to accept what suits them.


    In 2017 the Economist Intelligence Unit, which compiles an influential annual democracy ranking, said Spain risked being downgraded from a "full democracy" to a "flawed" one over its handling of the situation.


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    #2096
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Their parliament voted for separation (a slim majority) and Madrid then dissolved it. It seems that they only want to accept what suits them.


    In 2017 the Economist Intelligence Unit, which compiles an influential annual democracy ranking, said Spain risked being downgraded from a "full democracy" to a "flawed" one over its handling of the situation.

    Breaking their own rules in order to get that slim majority which is why the other half of the parliament walked out in protest and the referendum ultimately considered illegal. They broke so many laws and democratic processes that there are too many to lust here again.

    The Economic Intelligence Unit is just a magazine. Catalans have voted numerous times in the past 5 years in local, European and general elections.


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    #2097
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    I accept the results of local, general and referendum results


    Arrive a moment, the hypocrisy has to stop ...


    If you were sincerely " accepting the local, general elections and referendum results " , you would :


    - Accept that Catalonia is a nation ( as voted in majority by the Catalans in 2006 ) .You don't !


    - Accept that the majority of Catalans are pronouncing themselves for the independence ( as voted in majority by the Catalans in all the last elections and referundums . You don't !


    - Accept that 3 elected Catalans MEP has every democratic right to take their seats in Brussels ( as voted by more than 2 Millions of Catalans * ). You don't !


    - Accept that all laws passed at a majority in the Catalan Parliamentshould be respected . You don't !



    - Accept that , in or out of the Spanish law frame , an official referendum is needed NOW ( as voted repetitively by a large majority of Catalans ) . You don't !



    So , enough of hypocrisy, no need to put a white mask saying " I'm for democracy , I respect the elections results "

    No, we don't buy this...

    Clearly, you don't !





    * These 2 Millions of people are now NOT represented AT ALL in the EU .

    This anti-democratic situation is not without serious consequences , as we saw 2 days ago in a vote about the Migrants . I might do a post on that soon. )


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    #2098
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,065 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Breaking their own rules in order to get that slim majority which is why the other half of the parliament walked out in protest and the referendum ultimately considered illegal. They broke so many laws and democratic processes that there are too many to lust here again.

    The Economic Intelligence Unit is just a magazine. Catalans have voted numerous times in the past 5 years in local, European and general elections.

    Have you answered this


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    #2099
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Have you answered this

    Can you tell me please?

    This will be good.


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    #2100
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Arrive a moment, the hypocrisy has to stop ...
    If you were sincerely " accepting the local, general elections and referendum results " , you would :
    - Accept that Catalonia is a nation ( as voted in majority by the Catalans in 2006 ) .You don't !

    There has never been a referendum on whether Catalonia is a nation. You are being deliberately misleading.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    - Accept that the majority of Catalans are pronouncing themselves for the independence ( as voted in majority by the Catalans in all the last elections and referundums . You don't !

    There has never been a referendum on Catalan independence. Again, you are being deliberately misleading by trying to confuse a parliamentary based general elections with a referendum.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    - Accept that 3 elected Catalans MEP has every democratic right to take their seats in Brussels ( as voted by more than 2 Millions of Catalans * ). You don't !

    Interesting that you want to leave the European Union while simultaneously keeping a seat. Reminds me of Nigel Farage
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    - Accept that all laws passed at a majority in the Catalan Parliamentshould be respected . You don't !

    Laws passed legally yes, laws that are broken and circumvented as independence politicians have done. No.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    - Accept that , in or out of the Spanish law frame , an official referendum is needed NOW ( as voted repetitively by a large majority of Catalans ) . You don't !

    Again, you are factually incorrect. There has been no vote on Catalan independence. None, nada. Sorry but fake and phoney referendums don’t count.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    So , enough of hypocrisy, no need to put a white mask saying " I'm for democracy , I respect the elections results "
    No, we don't buy this...
    Clearly, you don't !

    The only hypocrisy by independence advocates who want to have everything both ways:

    They hold illegal elections where only one side of the debate votes, declare the results binding, then they say they are being oppressed
    They want to leave the EU and then complain that the EU should help them
    Puidgemeont declares independence and then flees to Belgium
    Say they are peaceful protesters and then riot in the street


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    #2101
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭eire4


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Can you tell me please?

    This will be good.

    Funny how you dodge asking that question yourself since what a nation is seems to be such a massive deal to you given how much you bring it up.

    For me this whole mess could be sorted out if both sides would sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution. But Madrid currently and has for some time preferred to act in a heavy handed way which has just served to inflame the situation.

    It seems from the polls I have seen that things are slightly in favour of Catalonia staying in Spain I think 48-44 in terms of staying was the most recent one I saw. So I do not see why they are so worried about any referendum on independence. It looks like Madrid would win. Having said that clearly the margins are close either way and that for me means that the 2 sides really need to sit down and negotiate an adjustment in Catalonia's relationship with Spain to bring a proper resolution to the situation that is good for everyone be they Spanish or Catalan.


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