Catalan independence referendum, 2017

is_that_so

Barna77 wrote: »

The Basque Economic Agreement.

In the Basque Country they set and collect their own taxes and spend the money collected whichever way they want. Then they pay a so called "quota" to state coffers.

This is what drives Catalonia crazy.

The Basques are always more pragmatic and just wanted to be left alone but they were also willing to deal. In Catalonia if they could address the money issue it is likely that support for secession would largely remain with the hard-core nationalists.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So why don't you post the report rather than two Catalan news organisations interpretation of the report?

I'm not one of those who duck when it's about giving the sources to prove the facts.


So here is the report as asked :


On the Website /read.oecd-ilibrary.org
Key words : education/pisa-2015-results-volume-i_9789264266490-en#page1


It's the Volume 1 and it has 494 pages.


Let me know when you are done with this Volume, and I will post you the link of the Volume 2 .

bertie 56

is_that_so wrote: »

The Basques are always more pragmatic and just wanted to be left alone but they were also willing to deal. In Catalonia if they could address the money issue it is likely that support for secession would largely remain with the hard-core nationalists.

I'm not convinced of that. Sanchez , in July last year, did propose the idea of a new Statute of Autonomy to the Catalan Government . The idea was for Spain to buy some peace , I suppose with a better economic deal with Catalonia.

Without having even started to discuss the contents of this new Statute, the Catalan Government refuses , and put back the " right to self-determination " on the table.
As for the people, it's not a question of economic deal , but more and more question of freedom and dignity .

As they say since the 2017 referendum day beating : " Ni oblit Ni perdó " ( " we don't forget nor forgive " .
Hard to find a money deal with that ...

is_that_so

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'm not convinced of that. Sanchez , in July last year, did propose the idea of a new Statute of Autonomy to the Catalan Government . The idea was for Spain to buy some peace , I suppose with a better economic deal with Catalonia. an

Without having even started to discuss the contents of this new Statute, the Catalan Government refuses , and put back the " right to self-determination " on the table.
As for the people, it's not a question of economic deal , but more and more question of freedom and dignity .

As they say since the 2017 referendum day beating : " Ni oblit Ni perdó " ( " we don't forget nor forgive " .
Hard to find a money deal with that ...

This all assumes they are nationalists at heart, they are not. Money is a bone of contention and has been for decades, some of it that you can see in their less than charitable attitude towards the "feckless" South. The point is that finance and autonomy are topics Madrid is not against exploring. Anything more than that is really another rerun of Article 155. For better or worse they are both Catalan and a part of Spain but they can definitely push for a more acceptable level of autonomy and a more equitable financial arrangement.

EagererBeaver

bertie 56 wrote: »

Hard to find a money deal with that ...

Hahaha, what a joke. The Pujol/Más/Puigdemont historial legacy is one of bourgeoise industrial and big business. Their nationalism has always been for sale.

The biggest myth about the independista movement, particularly across Ireland and the UK, is that it's representative of some sort of socialist revolution.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

As I'm not one of those who duck when it's about giving the sources to prove the facts, here is the report as asked :


On the Website /read.oecd-ilibrary.org
Key words : education/pisa-2015-results-volume-i_9789264266490-en#page1


It's the Volume 1 and it has 494 pages.


Let me know when you are done with this Volume, and I will post you the link of the Volume 2 .

Sorry but data dumping and providing links to a 500 page document does not prove your point.

bertie 56

is_that_so wrote: »

This all assumes they are nationalists at heart, they are not. Money is a bone of contention and has been for decades, some of it that you can see in their less than charitable attitude towards the "feckless" South. The point is that finance and autonomy are topics Madrid is not against exploring. Anything more than that is really another rerun of Article 155. For better or worse they are both Catalan and a part of Spain but they can definitely push for a more acceptable level of autonomy and a more equitable financial arrangement.

If it was the case, the solution of all that would be easy then : the Basque deal equivalent .
Madrid might not be against it, but I don't see the Catalans being bribed this way . Not anymore anyway. 5/10 years ago maybe, but now this seems too late....

bertie 56

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Hahaha, what a joke. The Pujol/Más/Puigdemont historial legacy is one of bourgeoise industrial and big business. Their nationalism has always been for sale.

The biggest myth about the independista movement, particularly across Ireland and the UK, is that it's representative of some sort of socialist revolution.

Pujol , Mas, and Puigdemont in a way are the past.

Still, I don't deny that the " bourgeoisie " plays a part in this. But reducing the independantist movement at this " bourgeoisie " is misleading...

Don't forget that , in the independentist side, the majority of votes last time went to ERC+CUP, compares to JxCat.

It might not be a " socialist revolution " sensu stricto as you say, but it's definitively a popular rise-up. ( in the sense " del pueblo " )

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Says who exactly? So if all the residents on my road decide that we are a nation, united by common language and community and we decide to call ourselves a nation does that make it so?

Yes, in theory that could make it so. But you'd never have one road, united by a common language and community, unique to that road alone. That's not how communities or nations develop. So at best, it's a false analogy. And it once again shows your lack of understanding of the term

Let's try this another way. You tell us all on here what a nation is. What do you believe it to be? Because if you can't understand what it is, why are you debating it to begin with? What's a nation? Seeing as you know best!

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yes, in theory that could make it so. But you'd never have one road, all of a sudden, united by a common language and community, unique to that road alone. That's not how communities or nations develop. So at best, it's a false analogy. And it once again shows your lack of understanding of the term

Let's try this another way. You tell us all on here what a nation is. What do you believe it to be? Because if you can't understand what it is, why are you debating it to begin with? What's a nation? Seeing as you know best!

Catalonia is not United by a common language. They speak more than one language there and the majority of people want to remain part of Spain. So quite the opposite actually, Catalonia is divided. Laughable that you would even suggest Catalonia is united when you look at what’s going on.

Why don’t you tell me what a nation is other than saying “one just is” because the rest of the world doesn’t seem to understand your definition of a nation since no other country on the planet recognises Catalonia as a nation. Not one.

marieholmfan

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia is not United by a common language. They speak more than one language there and the majority of people want to remain part of Spain. So quite the opposite actually, Catalonia is divided. Laughable that you would even suggest Catalonia is united when you look at what’s going on.

Why don’t you tell me what a nation is other than saying “one just is” because the rest of the world doesn’t seem to understand your definition of a nation since no other country on the planet recognises Catalonia as a nation. Not one.

Not the majority of true Catalans.

Nody

marieholmfan wrote: »

Not the majority of true Catalans.

You know who I recall who used that same arguments? The Nazis, because the Jews were not REALLY Germans after all even if they lived there for hundreds of years. Here's the deal though you don't get to pick and choose who you include if you want to hold a general vote on something which you and many "true Catalans" appear to be forgetting to frame an argument. You lost and you don't have a majority of the people behind the cause; you can accept that and try to convince more or you can keep crying unfair but the rest of the world are only seeing hooligans burning up garbage bins in Barcelona.

Barna77

marieholmfan wrote: »

Not the majority of true Catalans.

See I'm one of the fake Catalans because my parents are some of those Falangists from Castille and Andalucía. So as a result I'm a fascist that doesn't support independence.
Actually, they should move Franco's remains to the Sagrada Familia....





What really strikes me is that some of my cousins, who like me are first generation born in Catalonia, with no Catalonian background at all, are in favour of independence on grounds of centuries of mistreatment.....

Ah to be brainwashed and have narrow minded partners (in bed)

v638sg7k1a92bx

marieholmfan wrote: »

Not the majority of true Catalans.

What exactly is a true Catalan?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia is not United by a common language. They speak more than one language there and the majority of people want to remain part of Spain. So quite the opposite actually, Catalonia is divided. Laughable that you would even suggest Catalonia is united when you look at what’s going on.

Why don’t you tell me what a nation is other than saying “one just is” because the rest of the world doesn’t seem to understand your definition of a nation since no other country on the planet recognises Catalonia as a nation. Not one.

What other country recognises Ireland as a nation? They recognise it as a sovereign state. There's a difference. "Nation" is not a political term. Are you actually this slow?

I've given you several definitions on this thread. Will I repost several of them? You cannot dispute how Catalonia fits these definitions, just reply "Catalonia is not a nation". So I'd love to know, what is a nation according to Celia Late Troop? Please enlighten us instead repeatedly dodging the question

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What other country recognises Ireland as a nation? They recognise it as a sovereign state. There's a difference. "Nation" is not a political term. Are you actually this slow?

I've given you several definitions on this thread. Will I repost several of them? You cannot dispute how Catalonia fits these definitions, just reply "Catalonia is not a nation". So I'd love to know, what is a nation according to Tickers? Please enlighten us instead of repeatedly dodging the question

Ireland is a country not a nation and your definition of a nation is that “one just is”. That is not a definition of a nation.

I feel a people’s elbow coming on.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Ireland is a country not a nation and your definition of a nation is that “one just is”. That is not a definition of a nation.

I feel a people’s elbow coming on.

That does not answer the question posed

'So I'd love to know, what is a nation according to Celia Late Troop? Please enlighten us instead of repeatedly dodging the question '

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Ireland is a country not a nation and your definition of a nation is that “one just is”. That is not a definition of a nation.

I feel a people’s elbow coming on.

Ireland is a country, nation and a sovereign state.

Here's a definition:

"a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory"

So how is the above not applicable to Catalonia?

Why do you keep stonewalling and dodging a question I'm repeatedly asking you? Seeing as you do not view Catalonia a nation, then in your own words tell us what a nation is. Is this the 5th time of asking?

bertie 56

Nody wrote: »

( ... ) You lost and you don't have a majority of the people behind the cause; you can accept that and try to convince more or you can keep crying unfair but the rest of the world are only seeing hooligans burning up garbage bins in Barcelona.

I'll be happy if you share your information about " you don't have a majority of the people behind the cause " .
With facts , please.
Thanks in advance.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Sorry but data dumping and providing links to a 500 page document does not prove your point.

No need, the point was proved already with my first post about this subject .


The data link was a polite answer to your request .
See here for a memory refresh :

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So why don't you post the report rather than two Catalan news organisations interpretation of the report?

EagererBeaver

marieholmfan wrote: »

Not the majority of true Catalans.

Ah, I see you're back again to remind is how little you know about absolutely anything to do with the topic.

saabsaab

Just like Ireland looked for self-determination pre independence Catalonia is entitled to do the same. If this is denied or handled badly as with 1916 in Ireland the result will ultimately lead to violence.

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

What really strikes me is that some of my cousins, who like me are first generation born in Catalonia, with no Catalonian background at all, are in favour of independence on grounds of centuries of mistreatment.....

Ah to be brainwashed and have narrow minded partners (in bed)

I think most people would call that " successful integration " instead ...;)

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

Just like Ireland looked for self-determination pre independence Catalonia is entitled to do the same. If this is denied or handled badly as with 1916 in Ireland the result will ultimately lead to violence.

This? Again?

Maybe the Catalans can do what Collins did and sell out a quarter of the population. The provinces of Lleida, Girona and Tarragona could all form an independent state and say **** you, sort yourselves out to those of us living in Barcelona. Then, just like the 26 counties, they could move on and forget all about their other countrymen.

You should really go the whole hog if you're going to draw an equivalence like that.

Nody

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'll be happy if you share your information about " you don't have a majority of the people behind the cause " .
With facts , please.
Thanks in advance.

Sure

MADRID (Reuters) - More Catalans oppose independence from Spain than support it, a poll showed on Friday - the first such result since before October 2017 when the region narrowly voted in favor of secession in a referendum that national authorities banned.

But let me guess; the poll was rigged or something and the fact the separation parties got less than 40% in the last LEGAL election; but hey that's because hand waving something something I'm sure because admitting that it's not what the majority in the region can not be allowed to happen.

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

I think most people would call that " successful integration " instead ...;)

Sex for independence more like ha ha ha

saabsaab

Collins wasn't responsible for that alone. The Irish civil war was not about the 6 counties at all even De Valera accepted the de facto position for the large population in the north east.


De Valera asked for self-determination for the Irish people why can't Catalonia have the same?

Nody

saabsaab wrote: »

De Valera asked for self-determination for the Irish people why can't Catalonia have the same?

They can if they actually follow the law instead of breaking both local and national laws to claim a poll that was ruled illegal is somehow a mandate from the people who voted in less than 40% of parties going for independence. Or are you saying that the majority that's against leaving Spain should be forced to do so because a minority is drumming up an issue over it?

The Golden Miller

Nody wrote: »

They can if they actually follow the law instead of breaking both local and national laws to claim a poll that was ruled illegal is somehow a mandate from the people who voted in less than 40% of parties going for independence. Or are you saying that the majority that's against leaving Spain should be forced to do so because a minority is drumming up an issue over it?

This is the sort of jargon Spain and their followers hide behind. What does follow the law mean in this context? Resigning yourself to having literally no available path to ever achieve even self-determination, ye?

Seeing as you and others are big fans of proclaiming you've no problem with Catalonia obtaining independence as long as they do it lawfully, outline a lawful path they could take that could ever possibly achieve this, considering the remit of the Spanish constitution? Just more mealy mouthed bullsh!t

saabsaab

Why not hold a poll again so? This time allow it and see what happens?