"It's what you do next that counts"

Kellygirl

Very impressive after Amsterdam though. Well done.

I’ve a couple of questions if you don’t mind.

Why not the beetroot again? I was only reading about creatine recently and decided I must look into it more after Dublin was over. Very interesting about it helping the hydration.

Great food for thought there too with the less carbs etc. I must read your Ams report again.

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822358#Comment_119822358

Hi Kellygirl

I guess never say never but the taste was disgusting and I found it darkened my urine which I didn't like from a hydration feedback standpoint.

I also didn't load up on it for long enough, one of the studies, I think suggested 12 to 15 days of 500/600ml.

With the creatine that was the idea of a chemistry friend who's big into his cycling and running and swears by it. It was also him that advised me to change my fueling. He believes I was making everything hypertonic, a higher concentration of liquids than blood and therefore putting more pressure on the body and actually adding to dehydration effect.

So Sunday I took a bit of water at every station as well as having isotonic mix. I'd like to try it again at another marathon when body is recovered as my gut tells me it's a winner

Btw massive well done to you, huge chunk taken off your PB

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822506#Comment_119822506

Thanks for that. I want to review my fuelling. I was fully convinced of my plan going into it but I struggled and I’m not sure I have ever been hanging for water stations so much. I’d had a litre of Tailwind as fuel, making it up as I went along and I was then too full taking water on again. It might be back to gels for me … on a humid day anyway.

ReeReeG

You didn't mention your coaching successes on Sunday! Congrats, fantastic performances! One in particular ;) who absolutely thanked her training for those last 6 miles!

Congrats on another marathon!

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822654#Comment_119822654

Thanks, she was unreal! Good day out all round and we had another receive the Lord Mayor's Medal beforehand which was really special.

Laineyfrecks

Well done completing this after Amsterdam, I'm always in awe of anyone doing marathons so close together! I was taking the beetroot shots the week of the marathon, I agree about the taste, but it was grand if I just had a drink ready to go straight after haha.

Enjoy the recovery now!

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822673#Comment_119822673

You were incredible, congratulations on another PB. I estimate you probably passed me around Clonskeagh

Laineyfrecks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822724#Comment_119822724

Thank you, happy to be making improvements year after year...long may it last😊

Lazare

That's a really strong effort just after Amsterdam, well done D.

The Superman thing is hilarious 😂

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119830615#Comment_119830615

Thanks and good job toughening it out yourself.

I wouldn't overthink it too much, there was STH strange in the air. I was sweating way more than usual and from very early on and I've never seen so many taken out with cramp.

Onwards we march!

Wottle

Recovery Monday and Tuesday was going really well and then Wednesday morning I strained my groin.

Decided to take 5 full days off in total, slept well, loads of protein.

4 miles Saturday morning, heart rate was high, legs a little achy.

24 hours later, a proper recovery run with my middle daughter and legs felt amazing.

I also went through the 2,000 mile mark for the year and when looking at the results of that mileage, I have to be happy. Didn't hit my A goals for the half and full marathon but still ran PBs across the board

5k - 18'35, 5M - 31'10, 10k - 40'33, Half - 1'33'34, Full - 3'19'21

Having recently read Hadd again, he would a 100% think my endurance needs work and I agree.

I'm currently working on my 2023 plans and have already signed up for Seville & Amsterdam Marathons.

Seville more about focus over the winter, then March to July working on 5k to 10k before putting all my energy towards Amsterdam.

marathon2022

Well done on the 2000 miles, can only stand for you next year. Many more PBs to come

Wottle

I may have one more race in December, Valencia, strongly leaning towards it and recovery is going well.

I recently re-read Hadd's pdf and it gave me STH to think on.

I last followed Hadd back in 2012 under the guidance of "Racing flat", I was very much uncoachable back then and to an extent I still am but that's more my run/work/life balance. However I'm definitely a more consistent runner and I would say patient.

In 2012, I also had calf issues that limited my training but still ran a half marathon PB off Hadd, I found myself slower over 5k but definitely stronger.

So my idea is to do 2 or 3 runs a week at 160 HR for 3 weeks, not a lot of time I know but with such a short time frame, it's the only area I feel I can make gains.

Why 160? this tends to be my average HR for the first 8 to 10k in the marathon and my overall average HR for the 42k is 168.

So I'm hoping to make gains at the lower end and help delay the HR drift, as once I go over 172/173 it's only a matter of time before I'm forced to slowdown. This happened on the 21st mile in Amsterdam.

I'm gauging the training efforts at 160 as parallel lines, HR to Power numbers and HR to Strava's GAP pace (which I find to be a decent guide).

160 represents about 83/84% of my max HR. I use the Garmin HRM pro chest strap and my numbers are always very accurate, don't suffer with spikes etc.

Mon 7th - 7 miles with 5M@160 - P(297, 299, 293, 285, 281) - S(7'34, 7'31, 7'44, 7'53, 7'58). Reebok shoes.

Tue 8th - 6 miles ez

Wed 9th - 7 miles with 5M@160 - P(309, 308, 302, 299, 299) - S(7'20, 7'29, 7'43, 7'43, 7'44). Higher power numbers and better pace most likely down to the new Adizero Adios pro2, love them.

Thu 10th - 5.5 miles ez

Fri 11th - 2.5 miles super ez with a group

Sat 12th - Parkrun hard effort, just hoping to break 20 minutes. Haven't done a parkrun since July and had got my parkrun PB down to 18:35 but haven't done anything fast in months.

Had that nervousness feeling beforehand, light warm up, couple of strides and we were off.

Did my usual out fast, making use of alactic system for about 60 meters, settled down and let loads overtake me on the first 450 meter uphill in Marlay.

First km in 3:56 and now I start to get going, overtaking a few, no real battles and kind of find myself in no-mans land.

Km 2 & 3 - 3:46 & 3:55

I've mentioned here a few times how much I hate the 4th kilometer, all uphill through the forest and two guys running way stronger than me go by me, I can't go with them. Km 4 in 4'15.

Now the last kilometer is my favourite and once I exit the forest, it's just head down and try run fast but relaxed. Got into a sprint finish at the last turn and my last 150m is down at 4'30 mile pace, I win that battle but lost out on catching the two guys that took me in the forest, one of them just a second or two ahead.

19'26 (AHR 177) and quite happy with this as I really did think I'd have no 5k pace in my legs.

Wore the Adizero Adios pro2 for this and loved them again, not great at cornering but very comfortable and very bouncy.

Sun 13th - Forgot to change my watch back to miles, 10.6 miles with 13K@160HR - P(318, 317, 309, 311, 305, 299, 299, 303, 301, 299, 298, 293, 294) - S(7'10, 7'21, 6'59, 7'09, 7'26, 7'36, 7'31, 7'39, 7'35, 7'33, 7'27, 7'42, 7'46). Reebok shoes. Wind and an undulating course probably skewing numbers a little.

Murph_D

What's your resting HR?

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870451#Comment_119870451

42 - 44

Murph_D

I asked because I'm trying to compare your 160 with the 161-168 range I did a lot of training at in my recent marathon block: the Lydiard '¾' effort, which Keith Livingstone's book interpreted as 75-80% of heart rate reserve. That would seem to equate to 154-161 for you, so essentially it's the upper limit of that range.

Not sure of the wisdom of another marathon in, what, three weeks' time, but that's your call - the training effort seems about right to me based on the above but I'd be very careful not to exceed that.

Good luck!

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870577#Comment_119870577

Thanks Murph and I'm also not sure how wise it is, I'm definitely easing off for the rest of December, I know I need it.

I guess I'm still hung up on thinking I should have run quicker in Amsterdam but for iron and poor pacing.

In Dublin, I got a lot right, pacing and fueling and not worrying too much about the outcome but still giving it a fair crack.

However two weeks was never enough recovery.

Valencia will be a 5 week gap and I pretty much took a week off, muscle recovery was far better than it was for Amsterdam. I did have a little knee twinge but that's now resolved.

Another interesting experiment and one where I do fancy my chances to go quicker than Amsterdam.

skyblue46

Interesting discussion....but if running 3 marathons in close succession was a good idea would all the elites not be doing it to maximise their earnings? If you run faster than Amsterdam what does it tell you? That running 3 marathons in a row off a patchwork training plan is the answer? Maybe taking your learnings from the 2 you have done and incorporating them into a full block for a spring marathon would be more advantageous...

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870662#Comment_119870662

Can't really argue with your point and I agree three marathons in quick succession isn't a good idea. I've done it before back in 2008.

I believe my training for Amsterdam was the best I've ever done and just feel the low iron was the main factor for not running quicker. I've been on an iron supplement since 3rd week of September and although I haven't had my bloods done since, I do feel better within my body.

In hindsight, Dublin was a mistake and I bought into the hype but I pretty much downed tools at 30k and ran/walked the last 12k with a friend who was struggling. I think this is why I feel recovered and motivation is high.

Valencia could well again prove to be a bridge too far but I really do think I can better Amsterdam, if I don't, I'm ok with that too but I'm actually excited by the challenge.

Looking forward to a nice weekend away and I guess I just don't see any negatives.

And I've already got one eye on next year, my main target being Amsterdam 2023 and I can guarantee I won't be running more than two marathons.

Apologies, just realised I actually didn't answer your question...what would it tell me? It would just give my training some delayed validation and I know that doesn't even make sense, as that training block has been so diluted but I can't help feeling the What if?

ariana`

The thing with the iron though is the high mileage on the roads is hampering the replenishment. Easing off a little on the mileage from now until the end of the year along with the supplementation might do you a lot better in the long term. Just a suggestion though...

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871605#Comment_119871605

I didn't know that, thank you. December will be a very low mileage month, so fingers crossed all is normal starting 2023.

ariana`

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871616#Comment_119871616

A process called foot strike haemolysis occurs where red blood cells are damaged when the foot hits the ground, thus reducing your haemoglobin levels. And Iron is also lost through sweat.

Food for thought anyway 😊

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871628#Comment_119871628

It is, thank you. I was thinking purely from a diet pov.

Last December I decided to try shift some kilos and a side consequence of that was my meat consumption went down.

ariana`

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871691#Comment_119871691

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, dinner regularly falls by the wayside. Kids schedule is so tightly packed in the evenings that I don't stop going and by the time I do, I just have a snack and fall into bed. I don't skip breakfast, lunch or other snacks during the day, but with dinner I don't seem to even realise I'm skipping it until it's 10pm and suddenly I'm starving 😳 Anyways, best of luck with it, hopefully being conscious of it going forward and supplementing will do the trick.

Wottle

November 14th to 20th - Ran every day for a total of 54 miles.

The main takeaways:

1. Checked out Dodder valley parkrun, the course was modified due to works. Really nice atmosphere.

2. Long run was cut short, so actually haven't run longer than 10 miles since Dublin, not sure if I'm concerned.

3. Two more runs at 160 HR. The first one was run after a little bit of stress and a very poor night's sleep.

The second one was amazing but I've learnt not to get too carried away with these one in a million runs.

I've documented four of the 160HR runs as they were all done on the same route and format. 1 mile warm up, 5 miles at 160HR on an undulating course, 1 mile cool down. Looking forward to seeing what Wednesday's effort holds.

Wottle

November 21st to 27th

Just shy of 50 miles for the week, all of which was pretty low intensity.

The long run was a 12 miler up to Bohernabreena reservoir, heart rate nice and low, about 70% of max for an average mile pace of 8'48.

Heading to Valencia this weekend to give the marathon another whirl. Feeling refreshed but not sharp if that makes sense.

A lack of long runs and MP sessions. The 160 HR runs were working a treat but work runs have limited my opportunies for these over last couple of weeks.

Hoping to surprise myself.

marathon2022

Good luck tomorrow, hope the running gods throw some magic your way.

SuspectZero

Well done today! Looks like you paced it to perfection. I haven't been about but looks like you had a proper good year, a long way removed from the fine weather athlete😋. The 3:10/15 will come and running that today in your 3rd marathon in like 6 weeks is a really good sign of that.

El C

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119956428#Comment_119956428

Cheers, 2022 has been pretty kind with pbs from 5k to the full.

Haha, I'm definitely more consistent now, embracing proper easy running has been the big difference

Wottle

Valencia Marathon

Flew out first thing Saturday morning and headed straight to the expo, very picturesque city with a nice vibe. Walked 2.5k back to the hotel, lots of twists and turns. Decided I'd need to bring my phone for Google maps on race day.

No shakeout run on the Saturday, felt I'd benefit from a rest day as there was no taper.

Half decent sleep, woke at 4am to take some Maurten 320 for breakfast.

Shoe choice Adidas adizero pro 2.

Fueling 5 maurten gels every 35 minutes, 1x250ml tailwind for last couple of miles and 1 salt tablet at about 18 miles.

My pen was an 8:25am start but it was caged up, so I went with the next one at 8:35am.

This may have been a blessing as the 8:25 was for sub 3:16.

My plan was not time based, a sub 3:20 would be a bonus but I was determined to keep the heart rate low and a very close eye on the power numbers from Stryd.

Down 200ml of tailwind.

0 to 5k - 23'39 Nothing really happened, found my groove quickly enough. I was surprised at how packed the field remained.

5 to 10k - 23'42 Feeling very comfortable and delighted to see the heart rate remain low. I actually questioned whether I should be picking it up, too soon I answered.

10 to 15k - 23'45 The sun came out at mile 7, instantly I felt its heat on the back of my head, I hoped it wouldn't hang around, it didn't, just made the odd appearance. Saw Gidey somewhere in here on the opposite side of the road, she looked amazing and I gave her som claps and shouts. When I looked at my watch, I could see I was getting excited, tried to settle back down.

15 to 20k - 23'24 It was here that I worked out I was on 3:19 pace. I still felt unbelievably strong, more like a long run with friends than a race. Had to stop twice at mile 11 to loosen my left shoe lace. I hadn't run further than 12 miles in these shoes.

Halfway - 1:39:36

20 to 25k - 23'31 It was at mile 14 that my Heart rate jumped a couple of beats above 160, the zone I had targeted over last few weeks. In Amsterdam I reached that zone at mile 5 or 6.

25 to 30k - 23'39 Had to keep telling myself "not yet" and "don't fcuk this up". I was now getting excited about potentially running a negative split.

30 to 35k - 23'42 Delighted to pass the 20 mile mark and have no inclination to stop. I'm also passing quite a few.

35 to 40k - 23'14 Ok, now its time to pick it up, only slightly. The agonising imprint of cramp pain is stamped in my hamstrings from Seville and Amsterdam and it'll be the only thing that can potentially mess this up.

40 to 42.2k - 9:55 I've never raced with my phone before and with 600m to go I decide to video call my wife and daughters. Before the start I turned I'd turned off my mobile data as I didn't want constant notifications. In my attempt to make the call, I turned on mobile hotspot instead of data. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't make the call, tried numerous times.

In an attempt to put the phone back in my belt (about 250m to go) I dropped an earphone and as it turns out my hotel key card, I managed to collect the earphone and ended up holding the phone before having half a sprint.

3:18:31 and a 41 second negative split and a PB by 50 seconds

I know I cost myself messing around with the phone but I would have loved that call and kind of knew I had a small PB.

Finally made the call to my family at the finish line, glad I brought the phone as I was a little emotional.

Chuffed to bits with this run as I really hadn't a clue how Valencia would go.

Thanks for reading and the nice comments.