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Are people who have affairs/cheat bad people?

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12357…12

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    #122
    MeatTwoVeg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    I always find Boards to be a hilariously moralistic place at times.
    I generally put it down to the age profile or lack of life experience.
    Away from the black and white world of internet discussion forums, real life is a lot more complicated and messy.
    It's why I'd never presume to judge what goes on in other people's relationships. It's none of my business basically.


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    #123
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    professore wrote: »
    Yeah I think it surprises a lot of guys who are raised that women are the "moral guardians" of society and men are amoral assholes, it certainly surprised me how many women have zero morals - often the same ones loudly criticising other women for the same actions - and I've been surprised in the opposite direction with men - some of them do have strong morals. I'd say it's about 50 / 50.

    Any survey I've seen has it at with slightly more men cheating. Men also seem more likely to keep it quite if they were cheated on rather than tell everyone. They also seem to get caught for some very dumb mistakes.


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    #124
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Narcissists are out there - and they will do whatever the hell suits them at the time. You are both better off without him to be honest. There just is no happy ever after with somebody like that.



    A lot of people simply can't leave. For men in particular, you break up with the missus - she gets the house + the kids and you get to pay for both and see the kids on the weekend. If you are say 50 years old, what are you going to do? A bank wont give you a mortgage unless you earn a kings ransom, so you're options are basically stay put or go couch surfing.
    It's not as simple as come clean and face the consequences - it's that simple when you're twenty and living at home, not when times against you and you've kids and a mortgage.

    I'm not far off that profile. I'd still leave, and build a life for myself.


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    #125
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Any survey I've seen has it at with slightly more men cheating. Men also seem more likely to keep it quite if they were cheated on rather than tell everyone. They also seem to get caught for some very dumb mistakes.

    You really believe "surveys" like that? Asking people who are doing something dishonest to be honest on a survey. Doesn't work.

    Men keeping it quiet? You don't know what some women are like my friend - they are the masters of manipulation. You will learn when it's too late.


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    #126
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I always find Boards to be a hilariously moralistic place at times.
    I generally put it down to the age profile or lack of life experience.
    Away from the black and white world of internet discussion forums, real life is a lot more complicated and messy.
    It's why I'd never presume to judge what goes on in other people's relationships. It's none of my business basically.

    Yeah I'm around a long time, mid 40s, and cheating is still black and white for me. If you see the utter destruction it causes, suicides, mental illness, and often children end up hating one of their parents, even if you leave morals out of it, it's one of the worst things someone can do, up there with domestic violence. But it's all a "bit of fun" and "finding yourself". FFS.


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    #127
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,286 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    It's why I'd never presume to judge what goes on in other people's relationships. It's none of my business basically.

    In a relationship? Whats "in" a relationship about cheating? Surely its the definition of "outside" the relationship?

    You try to make it sound as if cheating is just something some couples do, as if its a choice they make and so who are we to judge. But the fact is that when it happens it happens with one person in that relationship not knowing about it at all, its completely non-consensual for that one person. And like anything non-consensual that makes it a lowlife thing to do to somebody.


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    #128
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    A lot of people simply can't leave. For men in particular, you break up with the missus - she gets the house + the kids and you get to pay for both and see the kids on the weekend. If you are say 50 years old, what are you going to do? A bank wont give you a mortgage unless you earn a kings ransom, so you're options are basically stay put or go couch surfing.
    It's not as simple as come clean and face the consequences - it's that simple when you're twenty and living at home, not when times against you and you've kids and a mortgage.

    Exactly i think allot of men can end up trapped in that rock and a hard place situation where the spark is gone or they've fallen out of love with their partner but breaking up would mean losing their entire lifestyle , their home , earnings , in some cases access to their kids ... Effectivly if you leave you are left homeless and broke so for many simply leaving is not the most obvious option. Sure its the more noble thing to do or whatever but , im sure by the time your in that position stuck in a failing marriage with the alternative being effectivly a 50% pay cut and homelessness im sure for many all notions of nobilty and morality fly out the window, and in all honesty gien the circumstances men find themselves in when a marriage breaks down its hard to blame them.

    They say its easier to find a job when you have a job , maybe the same is true of relationships , I'm sure its infinitly easier to find a potential partner whil in a failing marriage but still with your own how and finances then it is living back with your parents with half your salery going to your ex.


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    #129
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    professore wrote: »
    I'm not far off that profile. I'd still leave, and build a life for myself.

    Some people are stronger than others, have more options than others, or simply have more money than others. A lot of people just couldn't face into renting a room somewhere and living like a student possibly until they die!

    The whole pretending to be someone you're not just doesn't appeal to me. If I was going to be staying in the house but sleeping with someone else, I'd tell my missus what I was up to - the only reason I'd be up to anything like that was because our relationship had turned to shít anyway, so fúck her!
    I wouldn't be into an affair, all the pretend business trips or whatever - I just personally couldn't be arsed with all the acting, but I can definitely see why someone else might.


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    #130
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    professore wrote: »
    You really believe "surveys" like that? Asking people who are doing something dishonest to be honest on a survey. Doesn't work.

    Men keeping it quiet? You don't know what some women are like my friend - they are the masters of manipulation. You will learn when it's too late.

    You would be surprised what people admit in surveys.
    It was only slightly more men, not a huge difference. When I say men keep it quite I mean when cheated on. They don't usually broadcast it.


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    #131
    MeatTwoVeg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    bucketybuck wrote: »

    You try to make it sound as if cheating is just something some couples do, as if its a choice they make and so who are we to judge. But the fact is that when it happens it happens with one person in that relationship not knowing about it at all, its completely non-consensual for that one person. And like anything non-consensual that makes it a lowlife thing to do to somebody.

    Stop foaming at the mouth in your rush to pass judgement.
    It's none of your business.
    None at all.


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    #132
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    Exactly i think allot of men can end up trapped in that rock and a hard place situation where the spark is gone or they've fallen out of love with their partner but breaking up would mean losing their entire lifestyle , their home , earnings , in some cases access to their kids ... Effectivly if you leave you are left homeless and broke so for many simply leaving is not the most obvious option. Sure its the more noble thing to do or whatever but , im sure by the time your in that position stuck in a failing marriage with the alternative being effectivly a 50% pay cut and homelessness im sure for many all notions of nobilty and morality fly out the window, and in all honesty gien the circumstances men find themselves in when a marriage breaks down its hard to blame them.

    They say its easier to find a job when you have a job , maybe the same is true of relationships , I'm sure its infinitly easier to find a potential partner whil in a failing marriage but still with your own how and finances then it is living back with your parents with half your salery going to your ex.

    Not half your salary in Ireland. Also, do you currently spend half your salary on yourself and maintaining you? I sure as hell don't. More like 5% of it if I'm lucky. I would end up with far more of my income if I divorced, granted, a lot of it would go on rent etc somewhere else, but my wife and kids would be a lot worse off financially in cashflow terms than I would be, even with me giving them child support and keeping the house.


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    #133
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    Sure its the more noble thing to do or whatever but , im sure by the time your in that position stuck in a failing marriage with the alternative being effectivly a 50% pay cut and homelessness im sure for many all notions of nobilty and morality fly out the window, and in all honesty gien the circumstances men find themselves in when a marriage breaks down its hard to blame them.

    As you get older and more cynical you realise that morals come with a price - sometimes they simply aren't affordable.
    The moral high ground is populated largely by the naive, the immature and the liars.


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    #134
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Being in a bad relationship..or being bad at relationships. I suspect the latter is the case more often than people admit.

    I wonder why some people never really work on a relationship and instead give up on it wit the excuse ''the spark is gone'' or similar tripe.


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    #135
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    You would be surprised what people admit in surveys.
    It was only slightly more men, not a huge difference. When I say men keep it quite I mean when cheated on. They don't usually broadcast it.

    Yep you are right there in the second sentence. The first sentence we have no way of knowing as there would have to be some objective way of measuring it, i.e. first put each woman alone in a room with Brad Pitt and each man with Jessica Alba, test them, and then give them the survey without telling them the Pitt / Alba thing was part of the experiment.

    Even that would be a waste of time, as it would only catch the horny jump on any chance type of cheaters, not the ones that are unhappy over years and then cheat. Plus they might not fancy the person enough!


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    #136
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Stop foaming at the mouth in your rush to pass judgement.
    It's none of your business.
    None at all.

    Yes it's none of my business either unless it's my wife or me - or possibly close family - but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. People judge other people all the time. It's what humans do.


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    #137
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    As you get older and more cynical you realise that morals come with a price - sometimes they simply aren't affordable.
    The moral high ground is populated largely by the naive, the immature and the liars.

    That's true - but in this case the price of being moral is MUCH LESS in the medium to long term than the price of being immoral.


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    #138
    MeatTwoVeg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    professore wrote: »
    Yes it's none of my business either unless it's my wife or me - or possibly close family - but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. People judge other people all the time. It's what humans do.

    It's what the judgemental, curtain-twitching humans do. Not the entire species.


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    #139
    sashafierce
    Registered Users Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭sashafierce


    This post has been deleted.


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    #140
    twill
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    Exactly i think allot of men can end up trapped in that rock and a hard place situation where the spark is gone or they've fallen out of love with their partner but breaking up would mean losing their entire lifestyle , their home , earnings , in some cases access to their kids ... Effectivly if you leave you are left homeless and broke so for many simply leaving is not the most obvious option.

    This is true, and it goes to show how little people really think about what marriage entails and how hard it actually is. Never mind going into debt for a spectacle, focus on how you are going to deal with problems that come in the years afterwards.
    Sure its the more noble thing to do or whatever but , im sure by the time your in that position stuck in a failing marriage with the alternative being effectivly a 50% pay cut and homelessness im sure for many all notions of nobilty and morality fly out the window, and in all honesty gien the circumstances men find themselves in when a marriage breaks down its hard to blame them.
    From what I've read, it's actually a fallacy that most people cheat because of marriage problems, despite the excuses they give. In fact, a lot of the spouses who are betrayed in this manner report that it came out of the blue, and that they thought their marriage was sound. A lot of cheating happens because people just want what they want.
    They say its easier to find a job when you have a job , maybe the same is true of relationships , I'm sure its infinitly easier to find a potential partner whil in a failing marriage but still with your own how and finances then it is living back with your parents with half your salery going to your ex.
    The money isn't for the ex. It's to maintain the children. I have a lot of sympathy for men who are in this situation, which I know creates a lot of hardship, but the tone of resentment I often hear about the injustice of keeping the children fed is... interesting.


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    #141
    Estrellita
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Estrellita


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Stop foaming at the mouth in your rush to pass judgement.
    It's none of your business.
    None at all.

    Feeling judged? Professore gave an opinion on the matter. Accusing him of foaming at the mouth is a p.iss poor way of hiding the defensiveness in your posts.

    Finding the cheaters here is like shooting fish in a barrel. There's always a reason why cheating is excusable, and anyone that thinks otherwise are judgemental, nosey, curtain twitchers.. ffs.


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    #142
    twill
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    It's what the judgemental, curtain-twitching humans do. Not the entire species.

    Does anyone ever refrain from discussing the morality of theft, for example, because it would be "judgemental"? Moreover, marriage is a legal contract, and adultery is a basis for divorce in some countries, though not in Ireland.


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    #143
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    It's what the judgemental, curtain-twitching humans do. Not the entire species.

    Wow. You don't judge. What about Josef Fritzl? You don't judge it to be something of a risk for allowing your daughter to have a sleepover at his house? No? Or someone who you have lent money to several times and they never pay it back? Do you lend to them again? Fair play to you. Any chance of a few quid for christmas?


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    #144
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Estrellita wrote: »
    I've heard it all now. Perhaps these kids might wish their mother ended the marriage to find someone who makes her happy. No kid wishes a parent would cheat. That's codswallop, and you know it.

    Well I know of more than one friend whose mother was completely underappreciated. The 2 sons didn't get along that well with the father who was always in his own little tv room, at work, or out elsewhere. No time for family. When the lads reached late teenage years and started going to college, the mother started "seeing" a "gentleman companion". The sons found out but kept it to themselves and essentially told her that she had their support if she wanted it. They were going to be moving out at some stage and if she wanted then to consider a separation then that was her prerogative.

    "Codswallop"? "Heard it all now"?

    Do you think you have a monopoly on the mechanics of human relationships?


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    #145
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    Lets be honest its not a black and white situation , some people who cheat are i'm sure bad people who take advantage of trusting partners etc , some a good people who get caught in difficult circumstances i.e for whatever reason they feel trapped in a bad relationship of some sort or another. Some never intended on cheating but maybe just by chance met someone else and fell in love , for some people its a little too much vino at the office Christmas do or on a night out , away for a stag weekend.

    It happens often the person who did it regrets it it for whatever reason , i don't believe cheating necessarily makes someone an inherently bad person. i have cheated on ex's , it was sh!tty but i had my reasons at the time , i have had an affair and one night stands with girls i knew were married or in relationships i was single so didn't feel it was on me. I have mates who would never cheat and i know honestly never have and i have mates who cheat on their girlfriends every time were away for a weekend and there's a brothel , strip club or night club within there reach.

    I'm happy in my current relationship have never cheated on my fiance since we got together and i couldn't imagine myself doing it. But things change people change and i would never judge someone off hand just because they cheated on a partner or spouse there are a 100 and 1 reasons why people do it


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    #146
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    professore wrote: »
    Yeah I'm around a long time, mid 40s, and cheating is still black and white for me. If you see the utter destruction it causes, suicides, mental illness, and often children end up hating one of their parents, even if you leave morals out of it, it's one of the worst things someone can do, up there with domestic violence. But it's all a "bit of fun" and "finding yourself". FFS.

    You're equating infidelity with violence?


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    #147
    MeatTwoVeg
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    professore wrote: »
    Wow. You don't judge. What about Josef Fritzl? You don't judge it to be something of a risk for allowing your daughter to have a sleepover at his house? No? Or someone who you have lent money to several times and they never pay it back? Do you lend to them again? Fair play to you. Any chance of a few quid for christmas?

    Your ability to construct a meaningful analogy is severely lacking.


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    #148
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Well I know of more than one friend whose mother was completely underappreciated. The 2 sons didn't get along that well with the father who was always in his own little tv room, at work, or out elsewhere. No time for family. When the lads reached late teenage years and started going to college, the mother started "seeing" a "gentleman companion". The sons found out but kept it to themselves and essentially told her that she had their support if she wanted it. They were going to be moving out at some stage and if she wanted then to consider a separation then that was her prerogative.

    "Codswallop"? "Heard it all now"?

    Do you think you have a monopoly on the mechanics of human relationships?

    Hmm. Did she tell the husband she felt unappreciated? That she was very unhappy with the situation and if he didn't cop on that she was going to find herself another man? If she did, then I would have no issue with it.

    If she didn't, and assumed that he was deliberately withholding affection, or didn't give a sh1t about her, then she was wrong 100%. Some men are reared that way, just as some women are reared to keep a spotless house and looking like they stepped out of a fashion magazine is all that's needed to be a good wife, regardless of any affection being shown.


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    #149
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    HensVassal wrote: »
    You're equating infidelity with violence?

    Equating is saying two things are equal. I didn't say that. I said it is as serious as domestic violence, it's psychological violence. It's a power thing - it's saying that your own happiness is more important than your partner's misery. There have been many suicides over this, some known personally to me.


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    #150
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Being in a bad relationship..or being bad at relationships. I suspect the latter is the case more often than people admit.

    I wonder why some people never really work on a relationship and instead give up on it wit the excuse ''the spark is gone'' or similar tripe.

    Why should you work on a relationship if the spark IS gone and you want nothing more to do with that person?

    You trot out these cliches that you hear in movies or soap operas. Life is short. You want to waste more of your years flogging a dead horse.

    I was in a relationship for 6 years. Things started to go bad within the first 6 months. She cheated but I forgave her. But then the arguments became very bitter and she had a sadistic streak in her. She broke things that she knew I was fond of just to see me upset. She tried to kill one of my tropical tree frogs, the list of nastiness goes on. When we were good together it was good but I wish I had left earlier than 6 years. Trying to work on that powderkeg of a relationship was a waste of my time.


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    #151
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    The thing I completely fail to understand is that cheaters feel the need to convince everyone that they have the moral high ground and what they are doing is justified.

    I can see why someone might want to cheat, and have been tempted several times and had the opportunity - some of those times my marriage was in a really bad place - I had a lot of really good justifications lined up to do it. Thankfully I never crossed that line.

    I see very well why and how someone would cheat. If I had done it, I would have known full well what I was doing was wrong, and would not be telling people not to judge me. They have every right to judge me if they want. I did a crappy selfish thing, and don't need people telling me "it isn't so bad" or whatever because it is! Anyway it's what I think of myself that's important, I don't give a F what other people think.

    Maybe it's the society we live in, I don't know.


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