Dog had bad convulsion

DBB

Pilly, I'm so relieved that he's relatively ok. Still with us anyway!
As you know, my own dog developed epilepsy late in life, cause unknown. But the common causes of seizures have to be ruled out before a more confident diagnosis of "idiopathic epilepsy" (epilepsy of unknown cause) can be made.
Things like organ failure, poison, blood pressure problems, brain tumours can all cause seizures, so that's why your vet took bloods... To rule out some of the above.
A brain tumour can't be diagnosed without a scan. There can be clues that there's a problem, for example, my vet closely observed my dog's retinas with an ophthalmoscope, as a brain tumour can cause a pulsing of the blood in the retina. Nothing. Neither did my dog show any signs of headaches, eye flicking, or any neurological problems... Other than seizures.
The brain scan would have cost over €1k, and as my vet said, if a tumour was found, I could do little about it anyway, so the scan seemed somewhat redundant.
So we managed the epilepsy using a new-ish epilepsy drug called Pexion. Barbiturates are hard to get the dose right and cause liver problems (another reason for the blood tests... He's establishing a baseline prior to treatment). Just be aware that no drug can stop the seizures, they only (hopefully) curtail them to some degree.
There's loads of info online that describes what's happening at each stage of the seizure so you know what to expect and what's "normal"... My dog would be blind for about 10 mins after a seizure, and very disorientated... I'd hold her tight at this stage. Then, with a shake of her head, she'd come back to life in an instant, sight fully working again, and function reasonably normally, if not tired and clingy for a few hours.
One thing I will say... I had my very sympathetic vet plagued with worried phone calls for the first few months after my dog's diagnosis (what does x mean? Why's she doing y?)... I would NOT fancy facing this condition without a really good vet who gives you confidence and not make you feel like a second fiddle.
In short... I'd be very much inclined to find a small animal specialist. Most small animal vets are located in more populated towns and villages, but not necessarily. We've one near us in the shticks who's meant to be fab.
Perhaps post on the Tipperary forum to see can anyone recommend a small animal vet within driving distance?

pilly

DBB wrote: »

Pilly, I'm so relieved that he's relatively ok. Still with us anyway!
As you know, my own dog developed epilepsy late in life, cause unknown. But the common causes of seizures have to be ruled out before a more confident diagnosis of "idiopathic epilepsy" (epilepsy of unknown cause) can be made.
Things like organ failure, poison, blood pressure problems, brain tumours can all cause seizures, so that's why your vet took bloods... To rule out some of the above.
A brain tumour can't be diagnosed without a scan. There can be clues that there's a problem, for example, my vet closely observed my dog's retinas with an ophthalmoscope, as a brain tumour can cause a pulsing of the blood in the retina. Nothing. Neither did my dog show any signs of headaches, eye flicking, or any neurological problems... Other than seizures.
The brain scan would have cost over €1k, and as my vet said, if a tumour was found, I could do little about it anyway, so the scan seemed somewhat redundant.
So we managed the epilepsy using a new-ish epilepsy drug called Pexion. Barbiturates are hard to get the dose right and cause liver problems (another reason for the blood tests... He's establishing a baseline prior to treatment). Just be aware that no drug can stop the seizures, they only (hopefully) curtail them to some degree.
There's loads of info online that describes what's happening at each stage of the seizure so you know what to expect and what's "normal"... My dog would be blind for about 10 mins after a seizure, and very disorientated... I'd hold her tight at this stage. Then, with a shake of her head, she'd come back to life in an instant, sight fully working again, and function reasonably normally, if not tired and clingy for a few hours.
One thing I will say... I had my very sympathetic vet plagued with worried phone calls for the first few months after my dog's diagnosis (what does x mean? Why's she doing y?)... I would NOT fancy facing this condition without a really good vet who gives you confidence and not make you feel like a second fiddle.
In short... I'd be very much inclined to find a small animal specialist. Most small animal vets are located in more populated towns and villages, but not necessarily. We've one near us in the shticks who's meant to be fab.
Perhaps post on the Tipperary forum to see can anyone recommend a small animal vet within driving distance?

Thanks a million DBB. That all helps. Hopefully I'll know more when we get the bloods back. God love him he was flailing around the place for a good hour after the 1st one and couldn't see a thing but he does have cataracts anyway so his sight is not great.

After the 2nd one I think he was more exhausted but he kept sticking his head behind and against things, don't know if that was to relieve pain or not.

The crying was the worst because he NEVER ever cries, he could be out the back for an hour staring in the window dying to get in but he doesn't cry. Therefore I knew he was either in pain or really distressed.

Good idea about the Tipperary forum, I'll try that.

pilly

DBB wrote: »

Pilly, I'm so relieved that he's relatively ok. Still with us anyway!
As you know, my own dog developed epilepsy late in life, cause unknown. But the common causes of seizures have to be ruled out before a more confident diagnosis of "idiopathic epilepsy" (epilepsy of unknown cause) can be made.
Things like organ failure, poison, blood pressure problems, brain tumours can all cause seizures, so that's why your vet took bloods... To rule out some of the above.
A brain tumour can't be diagnosed without a scan. There can be clues that there's a problem, for example, my vet closely observed my dog's retinas with an ophthalmoscope, as a brain tumour can cause a pulsing of the blood in the retina. Nothing. Neither did my dog show any signs of headaches, eye flicking, or any neurological problems... Other than seizures.
The brain scan would have cost over €1k, and as my vet said, if a tumour was found, I could do little about it anyway, so the scan seemed somewhat redundant.
So we managed the epilepsy using a new-ish epilepsy drug called Pexion. Barbiturates are hard to get the dose right and cause liver problems (another reason for the blood tests... He's establishing a baseline prior to treatment). Just be aware that no drug can stop the seizures, they only (hopefully) curtail them to some degree.
There's loads of info online that describes what's happening at each stage of the seizure so you know what to expect and what's "normal"... My dog would be blind for about 10 mins after a seizure, and very disorientated... I'd hold her tight at this stage. Then, with a shake of her head, she'd come back to life in an instant, sight fully working again, and function reasonably normally, if not tired and clingy for a few hours.
One thing I will say... I had my very sympathetic vet plagued with worried phone calls for the first few months after my dog's diagnosis (what does x mean? Why's she doing y?)... I would NOT fancy facing this condition without a really good vet who gives you confidence and not make you feel like a second fiddle.
In short... I'd be very much inclined to find a small animal specialist. Most small animal vets are located in more populated towns and villages, but not necessarily. We've one near us in the shticks who's meant to be fab.
Perhaps post on the Tipperary forum to see can anyone recommend a small animal vet within driving distance?

The good thing is his vets bills are covered by the <snip> as I adopted him when he was 10. If you adopt an older dog they cover the bills. So at least I don't have that worry.

Mod note Sorry Pilly, I had to snip the name of the rescue you got him from there because of forum rules... But that's a damn good deal to offer for adopters of older dogs! Very impressed

shakencat

i hope and know everything will be fine

start buying more xmas treats and toys!

irish_goat

Did the vet not even offer to open the clinic? My mrs is a vet and would be wary of doing a housecall late at night to a client she didn't know well, but she'd always offer to see the animal in the clinic if the client asked.

alexonhisown

I dont even have a dog and i dont feel you over reacted. Its very upsetting to see an animal in distress.
I am annoyed the vet is only 10 mins away and wouldnt call to your house.
Business must be good for him if he can afford to turn down house calls.
And also very cold hearted of him.
When my sons dog had a gash on his leg and needed stitches, he rushed him to the vet and realised he had no money on him, but the vet sent him off down the town to get cash from atm, even though this was the dogs regular vet for his vaccinations etc, needless to say, he found a new vet after that.

hope the dog is feeling better soon

pilly

irish_goat wrote: »

Did the vet not even offer to open the clinic? My mrs is a vet and would be wary of doing a housecall late at night to a client she didn't know well, but she'd always offer to see the animal in the clinic if the client asked.

No, said there was nothing he could do for him "especially given his age" were his exact words. Like, he's going to die so what's the point.

alexonhisown

ARRANGEMENTS FOR 24-HOUR CARE
Vets must make arrangements to provide 24 hour emergency cover for the care of animals that during normal working hours could be considered as being under the care of the veterinary practice. Additionally, when providing 24 hour emergency cover a veterinary practitioner must not unreasonably refuse to provide emergency first aid and pain relief for the following situations:

for any animal of a species routinely treated during normal working hours.

for all species of animal at least until a more appropriate veterinary service accepts responsibility for the animal.

for any animal normally under the care of another veterinary practitioner.

for any animal even where no immediate payment is forthcoming.

DEFINITION OF EMERGENCY COVER
Emergency cover means the provision of at least immediate first aid and pain relief and this may be organised in cooperation with other practitioners. Vets must have details of how to access emergency cover on the phone whenever their clinic is closed: they don’t need to do it themselves, but must arrange for it to be done somehow.

Pet owners must be informed of how emergency cover is provided – this must be made clear in practice information via signs in waiting room, leaflets, website. Where veterinary practitioners, especially single-handed practitioners, find it difficult to provide a 24 hour service, they should co-ordinate arrangements for the treatment of all out-of-hours cases so that clients can obtain help from some other member of the profession with whom prior arrangements have been made and who is sufficiently close at hand to be able to provide services. Referring of out of-hours cases to other veterinary practitioners, whether in private practice or working for animal welfare charities, without their consent is unacceptable and unethical.

HOUSE CALLS
Where the personal safety of a veterinary practitioner might be at risk in conducting house calls, particularly at night, the situation must be explained to the client who should be asked to bring the animal to the practice base

I think the vet failed in his duty of care, especially in relation to the last paragraph

I don't know is it me over-reacting or is it that rural vets have little time for dogs?

Well I dont even know you Pilly(though I do have a soft spot for springers), but Im sat here reading this thread and I am absolutely flipping livid at the vet on your behalf.

I would write to the owners of the practice and describe your experiences with the on call vet. That kind of cavalier attitude doesnt bode for a successful career. They should know who the face of their business is.

dashoonage

I still honestly am shocked a vet could leave a distressed animal over night.

I honestly have to applaud your patience OP, the vets ear would be still red from the bollocking id have given him.

sillysmiles

Deleted User wrote: »

I would write to the owners of the practice and describe your experiences with the on call vet. That kind of cavalier attitude doesnt bode for a successful career. They should know who the face of their business is.

Personally, I'd start looking around for another vet, is the a larger town close by or can the rescue recommend someone (if they are local to you).
Then once a had the blood test results then I'd look at doing the above!

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I dont even know you Pilly(though I do have a soft spot for springers), but Im sat here reading this thread and I am absolutely flipping livid at the vet on your behalf.

I would write to the owners of the practice and describe your experiences with the on call vet. That kind of cavalier attitude doesnt bode for a successful career. They should know who the face of their business is.

It was actually the owner of the practice I saw this morning and he no more cared than the man in the moon.

They seem to feel that dogs have convulsions all the time.

I've just been speaking to someone local and said "I don't think he has much time for dogs" and his answer to me was "he doesn't have much time for people either, that's the type he is", so definitely going to look around.

Don't want to bite off my nose to spite my face though as the next nearest one I've found so far is 45 minutes away and I definitely can't see them coming out.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

The good thing is his vets bills are covered by the <snip> as I adopted him when he was 10. If you adopt an older dog they cover the bills. So at least I don't have that worry.

Mod note Sorry Pilly, I had to snip the name of the rescue you got him from there because of forum rules... But that's a damn good deal to offer for adopters of older dogs! Very impressed

Oh I didn't realise we weren't suppose to post the names of rescues. Sorry about that now.

DBB

Don't be overly concerned about them coming out op... Well... Not if it's standard idiopathic epilepsy at least. Epileptic dogs having seizures don't need the vet unless the seizures last longer than 5 mins, or are clustering with lots of seizures in a short time period (minutes and hours).
Otherwise, the seizures just become a way of life, you just get used to them and used to dealing with things. My dog tended to have a seizure every 2-4 weeks.. That was her pattern, but every dog is different. I know there are others here who have lived with, or are living with epileptic dogs, hopefully they'll give their experiences too.

pilly

DBB wrote: »

Don't be overly concerned about them coming out op... Well... Not if it's standard idiopathic epilepsy at least. Epileptic dogs having seizures don't need the vet unless the seizures last longer than 5 mins, or are clustering with lots of seizures in a short time period (minutes and hours).
Otherwise, the seizures just become a way of life, you just get used to them and used to dealing with things. My dog tended to have a seizure every 2-4 weeks.. That was her pattern, but every dog is different. I know there are others here who have lived with, or are living with epileptic dogs, hopefully they'll give their experiences too.

Okay, that's reassuring I suppose but it's the unknown part really that's worrying me, with his nosebleed and all.

I'll wait for the bloods on Wednesday anyway and see if anything comes up.

The 2nd seizure definitely lasted over 5 minutes though, I was timing it.

Sure as you say, I'll try not to panic for the meantime.

Kamili

pilly wrote: »

I almost felt a nuisance for ringing him.

that is not nice and you shouldn't feel like that at all. I would deffo look around, and if the new vet hasn't got an emergency service at least they can advise you on what to do the next time.

I hope you got some rest today, and everything works out alright.

Bells21

I'm glad to hear he's doing a little better today OP, you both must be exhausted. You must have felt so helpless last night. Hopefully it's something that you can get some answers to so you'll be prepared if anything like that does happen again. I don't think it was very nice that the vet didn't come out. If he suspected that it was something that could have been dealt with in the morning perhaps he should have stated that and offered some practical advice for you last night to soothe your poor pet. I don't think I'd be happy with that at all.
Keep us posted and hopefully you'll both get a better sleep tonight.

Fakediamond

I'm so sorry to hear about your poor dog, pilly. That must have been really frightening for you and him. I hope he'll be ok until you can get some answers. That vet is definitely lacking in compassion!!

pilly

So Claude has started eating and drinking so looking a bit brighter thank god. Still worried but it's made me think. He is getting to that age now so I intend on spoiling him and enjoying every minute we have together.

volchitsa

Just back in and I'm so delighted that it looks like it might be a manageable thing. I agree completely with people saying the vet's refusal to see the dog as an emergency was completely out of order. OTOH you need to have someone within a reasonable distance, so I suppose waiting to see how it goes is a reasonable option for now.

You must be exhausted, both of you. Look after yourself, and enjoy Claude now he's feeling a bit better!

aonb

+1 for a new vet. If hes bad with dogs, and worse with humans (customers) I would run a mile. When you need your vet, you are upset and stressed, your dog is stressed, the LAST thing you want is a cold unsympathetic vet.
There are good vets to be had in Clonmel and in Cahir. Once you get him diagnosed, and hopefully sorted on meds, you wont be needing emergency call outs hopefully, but definitely get yourself a sympathetic vet quickly
Hope Claude is doing better, the oldies are sometimes the best dog-pals

dashoonage

So hows Claude?

pilly

Okay, update. Vet rang yesterday and said his bloods are fine except for his white blood cell count is very high which could indicate infection. He's on anti-biotics so she wants to see him when he's finished those. BUT in the meantime he keeps falling over, it's like when someone is drunk, he just stumbles and falls over so I've rung again this morning, vets out on a call so waiting for a call back but I'm not happy with it.

To me it indicates something wrong in his brain, would I be right?

dashoonage

I really think its time for a second opinion. Whats he on antibiotics for ?

pilly

dashoonage wrote: »

I really think its time for a second opinion. Whats he on antibiotics for ?

She said it would dry up the bleeding in his nose, which to be fair it has done. Vitamin K too for the blood loss. He is a lot brighter now I have to say but definitely there's something not right about the way he's falling over and it's every few minutes.

I'm going to wait for her to ring me back and see what she says. The secretary did say that the fact he was falling over wasn't a good sign so I'm hoping she'll call him in to do a scan or something.

The Diddakoi

pilly wrote: »

After the 2nd one I think he was more exhausted but he kept sticking his head behind and against things, don't know if that was to relieve pain or not.

Read something about head pressing before. probably nothing if it was only a once off, but might be worth mentioning it to the vet anyway.

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_multi_headpressing

pilly

alf66 wrote: »

Read something about head pressing before. probably nothing if it was only a once off, but might be worth mentioning it to the vet anyway.

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_multi_headpressing

Interesting article. To be honest my intuition is telling me he has a brain tumour. I'd be happy to be proved wrong but I'm 80% convinced now.

The Diddakoi

Didn't mean to alarm you, sorry if I did
Just thought it may help to narrow down or rule out some possibilities.
Very best wishes to Claude, and you too.

pilly

alf66 wrote: »

Didn't mean to alarm you, sorry if I did
Just thought it may help to narrow down or rule out some possibilities.
Very best wishes to Claude, and you too.

No you didn't alarm me at all, I had brain tumour in mind to be honest.

The vet just called back there, she said to bring him in at 12 so let's see what she says.

faceman

pilly wrote: »

Okay, update. Vet rang yesterday and said his bloods are fine except for his white blood cell count is very high which could indicate infection. He's on anti-biotics so she wants to see him when he's finished those. BUT in the meantime he keeps falling over, it's like when someone is drunk, he just stumbles and falls over so I've rung again this morning, vets out on a call so waiting for a call back but I'm not happy with it.

To me it indicates something wrong in his brain, would I be right?

Not saying at all it's the same thing but when one of my dog's got really old he developed a problem where his brain wasn't communicating properly to his heart to pump faster when he was doing something strenuous like hard exercise etc. Meds helped though. Although it was an age thing