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Italy : ma che cazzo hai fatto ?

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    #122
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I thought they voted to stay the same - to resist change?
    Indeed, and in fact this is the recurring theme that keeps being misread.

    The media are portraying the big "shocks" of 2016 as people voting for change, when realistically it's a protest vote against change.

    Vote for Trump to "make America great again", i.e. to stop moving forward, to stop changing, go back to the way things were.

    Vote to leave the EU to return the UK to its former glory - to halt the changes being brought in by the EU.

    And again in Italy, vote against constitutional reform; keep things the way they are.


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    #123
    Butters1979
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So in that respect it is the same as Brexit. Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

    In your opinion. Not in theirs.


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    #124
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    In your opinion. Not in theirs.

    Those swinging these votes have no opinion on what they are being asked about.

    You have clearly stated what they were doing.


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    #125
    Butters1979
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Those swinging these votes have no opinion on what they are being asked about.

    You have clearly stated what they were doing.

    I didn't say they had no opinion what they were been asked about, I said the reason they voted against the reform was not necessarily because of their opinion on the reform itself, but instead to force a resignation from the PM.

    They had an opinion on both, and in their opinion, the more important issue at this time is the PMs resignation.

    You don't like the results of something don't accuse millions of people of having no opinion. Try to understand the bigger picture as they did.


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    #126
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    I didn't say they had no opinion what they were been asked about, I said the reason they voted against the reform was not necessarily because of their opinion on the reform itself, but instead to force a resignation from the PM.

    They had an opinion on both, and in their opinion, the more important issue at this time is the PMs resignation.

    You don't like the results of something don't accuse millions of people of having no opinion. Try to understand the bigger picture as they did.


    It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking.

    They had NO opinion on the proposal put to them, they were voting to change the PM - according to you.

    That is stupid, as it was with Brexit, as it was with Trump. Because it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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    #127
    Butters1979
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking.

    Yes it does.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    They had NO opinion on the proposal put to them, they were voting to change the PM - according to you.

    Again, they did, they just though other opportunities were more important
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That is stupid, as it was with Brexit, as it was with Trump. Because it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    In your opinion. Everyone who doesn't share your opinions or vote how you would vote is stupid? I think they understand the issues more than you.


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    #128
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Butters1979 wrote: »



    In your opinion. Everyone who doesn't share your opinions or vote how you would vote is stupid? I think they he issues more than you.

    Of course I think it is stupid to cut your nose off to spite your face.
    What do you think it is?


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    #129
    Butters1979
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Of course I think it is stupid to cut your nose off to spite your face.
    What do you think it is?

    I don't think that's what they're doing at all. That's what you think they are doing. You're projecting your opinion as reality.
    What massive negative implications will rejecting this referendum have on the Italian people? Explain how it's "cutting off their nose".


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    #130
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,137 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The Wolverine wrote: »
    Quitalia

    Just wait for Frexit.
    seamus wrote: »
    Indeed, and in fact this is the recurring theme that keeps being misread.

    The media are portraying the big "shocks" of 2016 as people voting for change, when realistically it's a protest vote against change.

    Vote for Trump to "make America great again", i.e. to stop moving forward, to stop changing, go back to the way things were.

    Vote to leave the EU to return the UK to its former glory - to halt the changes being brought in by the EU.

    And again in Italy, vote against constitutional reform; keep things the way they are.

    You and a fair few others don't appear to get it.

    You I believe are a europhile and someone probably doing alright under the current political and financial systems.
    Correct me if I am wrong.
    Thus you see a continuation of the current systems (political, financial, societal, etc) as being positive.
    You see proposals by some within the current system as being positive.

    You claim Trump voters were voting against moving forward and wanted to go backwards.

    Well tell me how is it moving forward for someone from the likes of Flint, Michigan who see their old employment gone and no future for their kids.
    Are you telling me that you wouldn't want to go back to the days when you had a job and your kids would have a job ?
    What has the current system and by extension Clinton offered them ?

    For people who have shag all under the current system they are fed up.

    They see a political class and system including the mainstream media lecturing them about the benefits of globalisation, about expanding EU, about taking in ever increasing amounts of migrants and refugees.

    If you are from a city or area which was once an industrial power, but that industry has been decimated and replaced by cheap imports, you are now unemployed, if you're kids are unemployed and you see no future for them then why the feck would you see anything proposed by the current system as being positive.

    As I think McWilliams said the other night, this isn't about young and old, right and left, it is between those inside and those outside, those who have a stake and those with shag all, and even less hope.

    As can be seen in Britain people who once supported the labour party now probably vote UKIP, maybe even far right or just vote against status quo because New Labour or Corbyns Labour no longer represent them.

    There is a growing chunk of people who feel the mainstream political parties no longer represent them.
    Thus they are turning to who they think are listening to them.
    Of course as will be probably quickly seen in US, Trump was just a snake oil salesman who wanted their votes.

    See how in Ireland the main parties have been hit and the huge rise of the alternatives and independents.

    Referendums and elections are the only time these people on the outside get a chance to voice their disapproval and shafting the incumbents, the old parties, the media and the holier than thou arrogant superiority complex commentators ala the OP is now their chance to stick it to the insiders.


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    #131
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    I don't think that's what they're doing at all. That's what you think they are doing. You're projecting your opinion as reality.
    What massive negative implications will rejecting this referendum have on the Italian people? Explain how it's "cutting off their nose".

    By causing what is evidently pointless instability they are removing whatever confidence there is and they have turned down emphatically any chance of actual reform.

    You have an 'opinion' I have an 'opinion'. What is your problem with that?
    My opinion is that Trump, Brexit and Italian ref rejection were all stupid knee jerk reactions swung by uninformed and angry(justified or not is an entirely different debate) voters.


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    #132
    Butters1979
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    By causing what is evidently pointless instability they are removing whatever confidence there is and they have turned down emphatically any chance of actual reform.

    You have an 'opinion' I have an 'opinion'. What is your problem with that?
    My opinion is that Trump, Brexit and Italian ref rejection were all stupid knee jerk reactions swung by uninformed and angry(justified or not is an entirely different debate) voters.

    It's not pointless. It's a means to an end. And those result weren't kneejerk. Kneejerk implies it will swing back. They were a long time in the making and the issues that fueled them are still around. Those who voted for them were not all uninformed. Again it's the idea that difference of opinion to you is stupid and uneducated. It's not.


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    #133
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    It's not pointless. It's a means to an end. And those result weren't kneejerk. Kneejerk implies it will swing back. They were a long time in the making and the issues that fueled them are still around. Those who voted for them were not all uninformed. Again it's the idea that difference of opinion to you is stupid and uneducated. It's not.

    And that is 'your opinion'.
    In mine, it is stupid and uninformed.


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    #134
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Grillo of the 5 star movement will be banging on about how horrible the EU is while ignoring that weakness in the old lira. It is also peculiar to see the likes of Mario Monti, Berlusconi telling their supporters to vote No. Matteo Renzi was trying to make the Italian political system more stable and instead he gets an anti establishment rebuttal from a Nation not short of wealthy elites.


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