RIP Fidel Castro

BalcombeSt4

brickmauser wrote: »

It is truly depressing that we have got to 35 pages of this thread and we still have posters defending the indefensible.

Castro was a tyrant who ran a one party totalitarian state that brutally represses dissident and opposition and with crackpot economic policies that have created mass poverty.

You cannot dispute this.

Castro was a monster and the best thing he did in his life was die.

Nobody has made him out to be an angel. It's the hypocricy of Western leaders post WW2 that pisses a lot of people of.

The US & Britain hated left-wing leaders no matter how good or bad they were & loved right-wing leaders no matter how good or bad they were.

Outlaw Pete

You know what capitalism is? Getting fucked!

Fourteen years ago, in the middle of George W Bush’s first presidency, controversial filmmaker Oliver Stone and a crew of documentarians travelled to Cuba for three days, visiting and filming the country’s leader Fidel Castro, who passed away on Friday, who spoke at length about topics as varied as love, politics, democracy, and others. The film was co-produced by HBO, but shelved permanently two weeks before it was set to be broadcast in 2003.

Commandante received its premiere at the Sundance Film Festival that year, but HBO distanced itself from the project after Castro’s administration in Cuba executed three hijackers of a US-bound ferry and imprisoned more than 70 political dissidents. At the time, Stone, director of such films as Wall Street, JFK and Natural Born Killers, told The New York Times: “I was heartbroken.”

Stone’s interest in the highly controversial leader did not end with the shelved documentary, as he would go on to produce a further two films about Castro, 2003’s Looking for Fidel and 2012’s Castro in Winter, which observes the socialist leader’s failing health and fading position as the leader of Cuba.

Commandante never received a cinematic release and has never been broadcast on HBO, but now a version of the 90-minute film, including Stone’s commentary, has been made available online.

https://vimeo.com/99088439

Ol' Donie

brickmauser wrote: »

This comment is beyond parody.

His regime wasn't perfect?

Give me a break.

Forced down your throat? You can't face facts and you don't want to know the truth.

You know Castro was a dictator. You know the Cuban people live in tyranny and misery. You know this is true but your ideology prevents you from admitting it.

When I speak to a person who claims the Bible is literal and they deny evolution I am dealing with the same codology. They know they believe in nonsense. They will argue all night that it is true because it's their ideology.

You can give up the pretense. You know this is nonsense. It's ok to admit it.

Hmm. Well, I won't ask you to defend your arguments with some evidence again, since last time you just ignored my request.

We'll leave it here, other than to say thank you for your entertaining idea of defending free speech - shouting down anyone with a conflicting opinion - and to wish you best of luck in the junior cert, when it rolls round in a few years.

Atoms for Peace

To be a successful revolutionary you really do have to die young, Fidel will never be in the same league as Che and Zapata.

TerrorFirmer

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Hmm. Well, I won't ask you to defend your arguments with some evidence again, since last time you just ignored my request.

We'll leave it here, other than to say thank you for your entertaining idea of defending free speech - shouting down anyone with a conflicting opinion - and to wish you best of luck in the junior cert, when it rolls round in a few years.

Your attitude seems to be that his regime has a few 'undeniable' positives therefore it's not as bad as made out?

Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, and Mao's China all had positives too. Do they get too hard a time?

Nobody has made him out to be an angel. It's the hypocricy of Western leaders post WW2 that pisses a lot of people of.

For some reason I cannot quite fathom, the 'but America/the UK did this' argument is rolled out whenever the topic is about tyranical despots or questionable world leaders.

Some sort of bizarre assumption that despite being Irish, if you're not on the side of the despot or accused, you're automatically a backer of the US administration and it's policies.

I must have missed those public opinion polls which show that Irish people overwhelmingly support the war on terror, intervention in the middle east and Afghanistation, and the continued existance of places like Guantanamo Bay.

A Little Pony

The problem with the US and UK is we propped the banks back up after the crash. Capitalism would have allowed them to fail.

A Little Pony

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

brickmauser wrote: »

It is truly depressing that we have got to 35 pages of this thread and we still have posters defending the indefensible.

Castro was a tyrant who ran a one party totalitarian state that brutally represses dissident and opposition and with crackpot economic policies that have created mass poverty.

You cannot dispute this.

Castro was a monster and the best thing he did in his life was die.

Nobody has made him out to be an angel. It's the hypocricy of Western leaders post WW2 that pisses a lot of people of.

The US & Britain hated left-wing leaders no matter how good or bad they were & loved right-wing leaders no matter how good or bad they were.

Denying people the right to vote is not a left or right issue, it is a question of ideals and believing in liberty for individuals to decide for themselves what sort of government they want. Give them the ballot box to do so.

brickmauser

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Hmm. Well, I won't ask you to defend your arguments with some evidence again, since last time you just ignored my request.

We'll leave it here, other than to say thank you for your entertaining idea of defending free speech - shouting down anyone with a conflicting opinion - and to wish you best of luck in the junior cert, when it rolls round in a few years.

Thanks for the sniffy reply. I'll take it as an admission you are in the wrong.

Ol' Donie

brickmauser wrote: »

Thanks for the sniffy reply. I'll take it as an admission you are in the wrong.

Well how could I possible argue with all this evidence you've presented?

brickmauser

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Well how could I possible argue with all this evidence you've presented?

The UN declaration of human rights and the speeches of Martin Luther King were both described as terrorist propaganda by the Castro regime.

Men women and children were imprison and tortured and executed by the thousands.

Go to Little Havana in Cuba and tell the relatives of Cubsn exiles that none of their family stories are true.

Anyone defending Castro is a disgrace and should be ashamed.

Absolutely pathetic

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

I'll just lol

As I said, blinkered, considering your continuous whinging about the Crimea.

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As I said, blinkered, considering your continuous whinging about the Crimea.

Ahhhhhhhh lol.

Opinions vs facts

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

Ahhhhhhhh lol.

Opinions vs facts

You got a closure date for Guantanamo yet?

Jawgap

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

No, the Cuban people justify Castro, their the only people who need to justify anyone in Cuba, nobody else.

He was nobodys puppet.

Really? So he wasn't a Soviet puppet in the way Batista was a US one?

I guess all those tanks, weapons etc were provided out of Soviet charity.

As for the Cuban people justifying Castro.....how do they do that? There are no elections, no free press and no dissent. There's no equivalent of PMQs, no public oversight, no whistleblowing and no FoI......so do tell how do the Cuban population justify or validate Castro?

We may have a complete muppet in charge but at least he was voted in through a system of republican democracy......the media can criticise him.....I can disagree with him (and call him a muppet without fear of arrest)......we've some modest if ineffectual form of parliamentary oversight.....protections for whistleblowers (I'm guessing not too many police blow the gaffe on anyone in power in Cuba?).....and loose FoI......so there's a form of a system in place to justify Kenny (and the belief that collectively people can act in a fairly stupid fashion).

What's the equivalent system in Cuba?

peasant

For anyone still interested, here is a very good article on the subject form The Business Insider UK

http://uk.businessinsider.com/castro-cubas-poverty-us-blockade-2016-12?r=US&IR=T

quote:

Yes, salaries are extremely low (as both Fidel and Raul have lamented) – but Cubans’ salaries do not determine their standard of living. About 85% of Cubans own their own homes and rent cannot exceed 4% of a tenant’s income. The state provides a (very) basic food basket while utility bills, transport and medicine costs are kept low. The opera, cinema, ballet and so on are cheap for all.

High-quality education and healthcare are free. They are part of the material wealth of Cuba and should not be dismissed – as if individual consumption of consumer goods were the only measure of economic success.

and another quote

Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, told me in 2009:

A great example provided by Cuba is that in its poverty it has known how to share, with all its international programmes. Cuba is the country with the greatest cooperation in relation to its gross domestic product and it is an example for all of us. This doesn’t mean that Cuba doesn’t have big problems, but it is also certain that it is impossible to judge the success or failure of the Cuban model without considering the US blockade, a blockade that has lasted for 50 years. Ecuador wouldn’t survive for five months with that blockade.

Let’s consider the embargo: the Cuban government estimates that it has cost the island US$753.69 billion. Their annual report to the United Nations provides a detailed account of that calculation. That’s a lot for a country whose average GDP between 1970 and 2014 has been calculated at US$31.7 billion.

BalcombeSt4

And all this talk about camps & censorship.

Britain interned 1000's of people in Ireland in the 1920's & 1970's. In August 1971 they also massacred 17 civilians & 22 people altogether during the initial operation (9th - 11th August 1971).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibhnhqB02A8

The Irish free State had 1000's maybe 10's of 1000's of people interned during the 1920's & 1940's and then they banned political opponents from the media between 1971 - 1994 with a similar censorship policy in the late 80's - 1994 in Britain.

Jawgap

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

And all this talk about camps & censorship.

Britain interned 1000's of people in Ireland in the 1920's & 1970's. In August 1971 they also massacred 17 civilians & 22 people altogether during the initial operation (9th - 11th August 1971).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibhnhqB02A8

The Irish free State had 1000's maybe 10's of 1000's of people interned during the 1920's & 1940's and then they banned political opponents from the media between 1971 - 1994 with a similar censorship policy in the late 80's - 1994 in Britain.

Yes, and it was wrong.

The fact they did it, doesn't make it right.

FTA69

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/04/fidel-castro-name-cuba-never-on-monument-says-brother-raul?CMP=share_btn_fb

Fidel's last wish was that no monument or public place be named after him. It was a wonderful send off for him in fairness, one of the world's greatest revolutionaries.

RIP Fidel.

Goya

Individual freedoms curtailed = bad usually but ok if under the command of a great revolutionary.

dan1895

Flimpson wrote: »

Individual freedoms curtailed = bad usually but ok if under the command of a great revolutionary.

Being hungry, homeless and sick = bad usually but ok if you're "free"

Jawgap

dan1895 wrote: »

Being hungry, homeless and sick = bad usually but ok if you're "free"

If you have online library access, the Encyclopedia of Homelessness, Volume 1, pg100 discusses "Housing and Homelessness in Contemporary Cuba".....

......in summary, Cuba doesn't have a homeless problem because it defines the issue in such a way that you have to be in 'absolute homelessness' before being classed as 'homeless.'

If you are sleeping on a mate's couch, have moved back in with your family, have access to a shelter or temporary accommodation etc you are not regarded as 'homeless.'

The article makes the point that the administration focuses on housing policy in a very absolutist fashion - namely the provision of quantities of housing unities without general regard to housing standards (beyond a minimum) and without regard to how and where people want to live. For example, Havana has a severe housing shortage and there is 'severe overcrowding.'

As the entry notes.....".....Cuba's housing problems are severe, though they may not be immediately obvious to the casual observer."

I'm sure we too could eliminate a lot of our shameful homeless problem by simply changing the definition

Rory28

None of us will ever know which side is right. Was he a great leader who stood up to the US when doing so seemed impossible or was he a human rights violator who imprisoned or exiled over 1/6th of the countries population?

Both it would seem. Castro did a lot of good with the healthcare and so on but he also did a lot of bad to anyone with differing opinions to his regime. The way he treated gay people was abhorrent but he also took responsibility for the way they were discriminated against.
Hard to know how to see the man after it all. I won't sit here and call him a monster or tyrant no more than I will deify him as some sort of hero. I would like to go over and get a fist hand taste of the country.

Goya

dan1895 wrote: »

Being hungry, homeless and sick = bad usually but ok if you're "free"

Well I didn't say that - or even imply it!

Neither scenario is acceptable in my opinion. People endured terrible poverty in Cuba too. Yet look how Castro lived! This is the thing about hardline communist countries - they're not egalitarian at all.

The ideal is a country where people are free to criticise the government, free to be entrepreneurs, yet there are state supports in place for those who don't get as good a start in life. And while it's flawed, I'm glad I live in Ireland.

Away From Home

I can't really read through all the post's but Fidel Castro was the leader of leaders, fought for what he believed in,was never afraid to die trying, some call him a dictator but tell me about any other leader or dictator that put people before money, well there are a few but he did a brilliant job with the tools at hand.

His enemies were money men and capitalist's that make their money from people with much less money than them, if they are locked up maybe they're still better off than the way that others would be living because of their greed.


Viva Chavez and Castro. RIP

recipio

He was a communist who believed he had the moral authority subjugate the Cuban people. He had no such right - he never asked the Cuban people for a mandate. They are now stuck in a timewarp with a hereditary dictatorship. They will go the way of all dictatorships with another revolution sooner or later.

pumpkin4life

Ireland has a pretty big Eastern European population.

Have any of you lads actually talked to them about how of a party they had with the Soviet Union on their ass? Fùcking lucky out to get an orange for Christmas some of them.

And yet this fùckbutt gets Michael D singing his praises.

I hope he spends hell working in a Soviet salt mine.

BoJack Horseman

Away From Home wrote: »

some call him a dictator

He was....that isn't an opinion... he simply was a dictator.

but tell me about any other leader or dictator that put people before money

Not Fidel anyway... he lived in fabulous wealth while his people had all the joys of socialism heaped upon them.


Anyway, while en route to his grave, things went a bit awry for Fidels corpse.
Loaded onto the back of a Soviet jeep knock-off the inevitable happened.... it broke down

Jawgap

Away From Home wrote: »

.......
Viva Chavez and Castro. RIP

......his ideology seems to be working out well for Venezuela

http://www.ibtimes.com/venezuela-inflation-crisis-2016-larger-banknotes-issued-amid-currencys-sky-rocketing-2455047

Away From Home

Jawgap wrote: »

......his ideology seems to be working out well for Venezuela

http://www.ibtimes.com/venezuela-inflation-crisis-2016-larger-banknotes-issued-amid-currencys-sky-rocketing-2455047

The financial world is ruled and governed, you don't play the game your never gonna get near winning the game, US embargo's couldnt stop the Cubans getting well educated and free medical care, amongst the best in the world, it all depends how you view the world I suppose.

Forget the bull**** propaganda, yes he killed while 100% putting his life on the line, it was 50/50, he won, and the people of Cuba adored him, some day visit the beautiful Island.

Jawgap

Away From Home wrote: »

The financial world is ruled and governed, you don't play the game your never gonna get near winning the game, US embargo's couldnt stop the Cubans getting well educated and free medical care, amongst the best in the world, it all depends how you view the world I suppose.

Forget the bull**** propaganda, yes he killed while 100% putting his life on the line, it was 50/50, he won, and the people of Cuba adored him, some day visit the beautiful Island.

Actually, if you read back you'll see my account of having visited the island, both for work and leisure.

Primary and community care are undoubtedly world class - secondary and tertiary care not so much, especially outside the urban areas.

And he killed and continued to kill long after he got into power.

I don't know what the people thought of him as they were hardly likely to share their true feelings with an outsider there on a government project.