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RIP Fidel Castro

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    #362
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Actually it does - the Jupiters in Turkey were under joint control (just as the weapons there are now) and the Americans had and have a much more sophisticated system of PALs to ensure there's only 'launch on command.'

    The Soviet system at the time because of their deficient technology was a 'launch on warning' system - now you take that, put it with first strike weapons on an island ruled by someone who was unstable and paranoid(to be fair, the US was trying to kill him) and show how it could've ended well?

    I get your point, but I honestly think that if the Soviets had equal systems to the US it still would have been the same scenario. They just didn't want those missiles so close to them, doesn't really matter under who's control. Double standards, just like almost everyone on this thread :D


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    #363
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    brickmauser wrote: »
    Demented that people are defending this monster.

    This is what gives scum like this their power - that otherwise decent good people allow themselves to be seduced.

    We know they know and everyone knows what Castro was.

    Why this silly fantasy?

    Admit the truth because the truth sets you free.

    It's one of those annoying Irishisms that no matter how much of a scumbag someone is in life, when they die people start fawning over them or making excuses for their behaviour, rather than just telling it like it is.


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    #364
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    I get your point, but I honestly think that if the Soviets had equal systems to the US it still would have been the same scenario. They just didn't want those missiles so close to them, doesn't really matter under who's control. Double standards, just like almost everyone on this thread :D

    But they didn't, which makes it all the more reckless to have considered placing nukes with no or limited PALs in the physical custody of a looper like Castro.

    Plus, Khrushchev intended all along to withdraw them - his intention was to trade their withdrawal for Berlin - would that have happened? Who knows? The plan was rumbled before it was fully implemented, thankfully.

    They weren't there to assure Cuba's sovereignty (the 40,000 troops/personnel the Sovs sent were sufficient for that).......nor where they there to pose a sustainable threat to the US.......building the planned naval base to operate subs from would've been a much more insidious threat.

    The Sovs were simply using Cuba the way the US used (and is still using) countless other countries.


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    #365
    Howard the Duck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭Howard the Duck


    A long but brilliant article . Shows a glimpse of what the rebels promised at the start and what Cuba became. I would guess the power went to his head and his brother and Che had far too much influence over him. I think he was a man with noble intentions who got corrupted

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/05/28/the-yankee-comandante


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    #366
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    brickmauser wrote: »
    Demented that people are defending this monster.

    This is what gives scum like this their power - that otherwise decent good people allow themselves to be seduced.

    We know they know and everyone knows what Castro was.

    Why this silly fantasy?

    Admit the truth because the truth sets you free.

    Personally, I think it's down to the fact that he was 'iconic' - he was a good 'brand' and he had great PR.

    The hat, the fatigues, the cigars and the beard made for a great image - especially when cast against the US and the other western powers who tried to marginalise the country and just drove it into the lap of the USSR.

    The gas thing is that we can celebrate the death of a wagon like Thatcher (ding dong!!) and no one can touch us - even if a tiny minority of the 'liberated' people of Cuba wanted to, they couldn't come out and express some relief that he's dead.


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    #367
    Rumpy Pumpy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭Rumpy Pumpy


    Howard the Duck wrote: »
    A long but brilliant article . Shows a glimpse of what the rebels promised at the start and what Cuba became. I would guess the power went to his head and his brother and Che had far too much influence over him. I think he was a man with noble intentions who got corrupted

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/05/28/the-yankee-comandante

    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.


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    #368
    Johro
    Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    Am I the only person who thinks Higgins is an outright embarrassment of a president and that Gallagher was the best (though shìte) of a bad lot all the way back in 2011?

    I mean, look at the violence and torture Castro committed. What in bejaesus is going on like?
    I guess people are aware of the circumstances that created Castro. US support for Batista, for instance.


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    #369
    brickmauser
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭brickmauser


    Johro wrote: »
    I guess people are aware of the circumstances that created Castro. US support for Batista, for instance.

    Castro created Castro. Deal with it. A monster.


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    #370
    Ol' Donie
    Registered Users Posts: 19,600 ✭✭✭✭Ol' Donie


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.

    Any background on this? Is it covered in that New Yorker article?


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    #371
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.

    Sure look at the millions crying when Mandela died. He got into power & did fcuk all for his people, they all live in the same poverty during apartheid.


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    #372
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FortySeven wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Communism doesn't work, why people defend this absolute lunatic is beyond me. His system was sh*te and his country suffered for it. You can not suppress the individual liberty of people and the pursuit of happiness.

    Has communism ever been tried without powerful countries trying their hardest to defeat it? Throwing their might to stifle the development. Embargoes, military build ups, arms races, espionage and propoganda have been thrown at any state that dared try it.

    I'm not saying it could work, I'm not saying it does, I'm not even a leftie but we have to admit that it has never been given a fair go.

    It's been like trying to build a house whilst someone else is trying to knock it down. Hard going.
    If I was told tomorrow the UK would be turning to a communist state, I'd be trying to get out!

    It doesn't work, as an ideology on how to run a country, it is a disaster for freedom and individual liberty.


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    #373
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Some leftists can't seem to help themselves to try and cover up the brutal dictatorship of Castro by mentioning his education policies. I mean, who gives a f*ck about that when you can't even vote to get rid of him, opposition not allowed. It is laughable.


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    #374
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Howard the Duck wrote: »
    A long but brilliant article . Shows a glimpse of what the rebels promised at the start and what Cuba became. I would guess the power went to his head and his brother and Che had far too much influence over him. I think he was a man with noble intentions who got corrupted

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/05/28/the-yankee-comandante

    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.
    Absolute Horses***e
    I suppose you think they should have just accepted a US puppet regime like the rest of SA,
    How would you feel if it was Ireland


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    #375
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.

    Sure look at the millions crying when Mandela died. He got into power & did fcuk all for his people, they all live in the same poverty during apartheid.
    You're right, apartheid was great, he should have just stayed in jail the fool


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    #376
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Tsipras wrote: »
    Absolute Horses***e
    I suppose you think they should have just accepted a US puppet regime like the rest of SA,
    How would you feel if it was Ireland

    216 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

    The exact number of Che’s victims in Cuba is unknown. Guevara is said to have acknowledged ordering many executions -all carried out without affording the victims due process of law. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba or other countries where he led guerrilla operations have yet to be tallied.
    The following list is not exhaustive and includes only cases for which historic reference is known -those he personally executed as well as those killed under his orders. Names are cited as reported. Additional details, including bibliographic information, are available for most cases.


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    #377
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Tsipras wrote: »
    Absolute Horses***e
    I suppose you think they should have just accepted a US puppet regime like the rest of SA,
    How would you feel if it was Ireland

    216 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

    The exact number of Che’s victims in Cuba is unknown. Guevara is said to have acknowledged ordering many executions -all carried out without affording the victims due process of law. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba or other countries where he led guerrilla operations have yet to be tallied.
    The following list is not exhaustive and includes only cases for which historic reference is known -those he personally executed as well as those killed under his orders. Names are cited as reported. Additional details, including bibliographic information, are available for most cases.
    This was the alternative 
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095


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    #378
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Tsipras wrote: »
    You're right, apartheid was great, he should have just stayed in jail the fool

    Not what I said!!


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    #379
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Tsipras wrote: »
    You're right, apartheid was great, he should have just stayed in jail the fool

    Not what I said!!
    Yeah fair enough, but I don't agree with criticism of him, he couldn't solve everything himself, what country is perfect


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    #380
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Tsipras wrote: »
    This was the alternative 
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095

    I've asked this question repeatedly and the apologists for Castro have yet to answer, so I'll try again......

    Pinochet was an evil bastard - ideology aside, what's the difference between him murdering, imprisoning, and disappearing thousands, and Castro's doing the same?

    Castro's grinding taxation to fund 'free' health and education makes him qualitatively different, is that it?


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    #381
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Tsipras wrote: »
    This was the alternative 
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095

    I've asked this question repeatedly and the apologists for Castro have yet to answer, so I'll try again......

    Pinochet was an evil bastard - ideology aside, what's the difference between him murdering, imprisoning, and disappearing thousands, and Castro's doing the same?

    Castro's grinding taxation to fund 'free' health and education makes him qualitatively different, is that it?
    It's your lucky day so I'll answer - Castro did it to people who were being paid by the US try to depose him and set up a Pinochet eile in Cuba


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    #382
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Tsipras wrote: »
    It's your lucky day so I'll answer - Castro did it to people who were being paid by the US try to depose him and set up a Pinochet eile in Cuba

    Really?

    This guy, for example, you reckon he was bring paid by the US to topple Castro?

    And the people on the "13 de Marzo" boat......how can people trying to flee the regime be involved in trying to depose it?


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    #383
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Castro's grinding taxation to fund 'free' health and education makes him qualitatively different, is that it?

    A good health and education system actually matters to most people so trying to minimise the importance of actually delivering these to a population is a bit disengenous tbh.


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    #384
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Some leftists can't seem to help themselves to try and cover up the brutal dictatorship of Castro by mentioning his education policies. I mean, who gives a f*ck about that when you can't even vote to get rid of him, opposition not allowed. It is laughable.

    What's brutal about his dictatorship? Serious question.
    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.

    I think the iconic t-shirt is very similar to the symbol of the AK47. Both symbolize revolution, it doesn't mean that people agree (or are even aware) of Che's methods, I believe his intentions were good, but his methods were quite extreme.
    brickmauser wrote: »
    Castro created Castro. Deal with it. A monster.

    Could you explain how he was a monster?


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    #385
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Ezekiel Chubby Teapot wrote: »
    What's brutal about his dictatorship? Serious question?

    Nowadays in polite society people tend to frown on torture & extrajudicial killing..... ditto for homosexual internment camps.

    You'd think this wouldn't need to be explained but there you go..... kids today.
    And of course the question is ridiculous, considering that there is no such thing as a dictatorship that is gentle & kind & just to all.


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    #386
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Tsipras wrote: »
    It's your lucky day so I'll answer - Castro did it to people who were being paid by the US try to depose him and set up a Pinochet eile in Cuba

    Really?

    This guy, for example, you reckon he was bring paid by the US to topple Castro?

    And the people on the "13 de Marzo" boat......how can people trying to flee the regime be involved in trying to depose it?
    How? By going to America and organising (by which I mean getting paid millions by the US government/CIA to think of ways to topple the revolution) into anti revolution groups funded by the US government and millionaires who want the land back that Castro took off their families in the revolution.


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    #387
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A good health and education system actually matters to most people so trying to minimise the importance of actually delivering these to a population is a bit disengenous tbh.

    I agree. And having been to Cuba and examined aspects of their primary care system I'd say it's world class, but secondary and tertiary care is much weaker; patient rights are non-existent; and peer driven clinical governance is a totally alien concept.

    Also, their doctors are so brilliant there is no medical negligence.

    Access to care is rapid, but the level of potential care available is not great - outside the cities access to technologies like MRIs etc is very patchy.

    Also, aside from the social and political costs imposed in the name of such a system there's the absence of prosperity - average monthly income is $25 per month.


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    #388
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Tsipras wrote: »
    How? By going to America and organising (by which I mean getting paid millions by the US government/CIA to think of ways to topple the revolution) into anti revolution groups funded by the US government and millionaires who want the land back that Castro took off their families in the revolution.

    So the OAP and the kids in the boat were a threat because some bogeymen might have used them as a proxy force to topple the regime.......riiiiiiiiiiight :rolleyes:

    Obviously the paranoia of the regime is infectious ;)


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    #389
    Depp
    Registered Users Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Depp


    Tsipras wrote: »
    How would you feel if it was Ireland

    hungry most likely, probably cold


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    #390
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Ezekiel Chubby Teapot wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Some leftists can't seem to help themselves to try and cover up the brutal dictatorship of Castro by mentioning his education policies. I mean, who gives a f*ck about that when you can't even vote to get rid of him, opposition not allowed. It is laughable.

    What's brutal about his dictatorship? Serious question.
    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Guevara was a ruthless psychopath. An absolutely wretched human being. The iconic tshirt and the fawning movies never show what a scumbag he was.

    I think the iconic t-shirt is very similar to the symbol of the AK47. Both symbolize revolution, it doesn't mean that people agree (or are even aware) of Che's methods, I believe his intentions were good, but his methods were quite extreme.
    brickmauser wrote: »
    Castro created Castro. Deal with it. A monster.

    Could you explain how he was a monster?
    Is this a serious question? He ruled the country for 50 years with no elections, people denied the right to vote.


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    #391
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Nowadays in polite society people tend to frown on torture & extrajudicial killing..... ditto for homosexual internment camps.

    You'd think this wouldn't need to be explained but there you go..... kids today.
    And of course the question is ridiculous, considering that there is no such thing as a dictatorship that is gentle & kind & just to all.

    Is it possible for you to answer a question or debate without being so condescending? Unfortunately, I do not hold all the knowledge in the universe, there's a couple of items on the list which have escaped me.

    So are the homosexual internment camps still open? Does torture and extrajudicial killings still take place, are they common?
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Is this a serious question? He ruled the country for 50 years with no elections, people denied the right to vote.

    And that's your definition of a brutal dictator? Batista being left in power was the alternative. Castro seemed to have had good intentions for his country, but I guess not everybody agrees with that.


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