RIP Fidel Castro

Jawgap

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It wasn't a case of wanting to trade with the US but the US unilaterally waging economic warfare on the Cuban population.

Well that's not quite true, but whatever.

Eisenhower introduced an arms embargo against both sides in the revolution, and when Castro gained power he reduced the amount of sugar the US would take......Castro responded by nationalising the US owned oil refineries.....and when the US tightened the trade restrictions, he nationalised all US owned property on the island.

The freezing of Cuban assets, the total shutdown of all trade and the travel ban were introduced by JFK after the Cuban Misdile Crisis.

Junkyard Tom

Jawgap wrote: »

Well that's not quite true, but whatever.

No not 'but whatever'. Are you saying the US hasn't been waging economic warfare against the Cuban people because they had the cheek to try to exercise sovereignty over their resources for the betterment of thier people?

After a meeting between Castro and Vice-President Richard Nixon, where Castro outlined his reform plans for Cuba, the U.S. began to impose gradual trade restrictions on the island. On 4 September 1959, Ambassador Bonsal met with Cuban Premier Fidel Castro to express "serious concern at the treatment being given to American private interests in Cuba both agriculture and utilities."

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/bayofpigs/chron.html

MPFGLB

brickmauser wrote: »

Anyone who RIP's Castro is beta. A complete bitch.

It must very hollow in your black and white , one dimensional universe

Castro at war killed people but tell me how is this differnt to say I dunno Geroge W Bush invading Iraq and causing the deaths, of 100, 000s of Iraqis. Or Putin poisoning or gunning down his political enemies on the streets of London. Or Chinese governemnt opening fire on crowds in Tinneman sqaure,
Or even Michale Collins death squads against G men on the streets of Dublin

Castro had an ideology of socialism and protected his world view against the enemies as he saw them .....Like most political leaders do ...

He was not a saint but tell me which US president has been when it comes to waging war or killing enemies...its just they don't stand over the bodies

Before Castor poverty was rife in Cuba except for the few .The regime was the puppet of the US and was corrupt and favoured corruption...afterwards ar least people had food, education, healthcare ...., True they did not have opportunity but many so called democracies have produced worse leaders...

I try not to view complex issues with a one dimesntional simplist views or with biased hatred

Fidel Castro RIP

Iwasfrozen

MPFGLB wrote: »

It must very hollow in your black and white , one dimensional universe

Castro at war killed people but tell me how is this differnt to say I dunno Geroge W Bush invading Iraq and causing the deaths, of 100, 000s of Iraqis. Or Putin poisoning or gunning down his political enemies on the streets of London. Or Chinese governemnt opening fire on crowds in Tinneman sqaure,
Or even Michale Collins death squads against G men on the streets of Dublin

Castro had an ideology of socialism and protected his world view against the enemies as he saw them .....Like most political leaders do ...

He was not a saint but tell me which US president has been when it comes to waging war or killing enemies...its just they don't stand over the bodies

Before Castor poverty was rife in Cuba except for the few .The regime was the puppet of the US and was corrupt and favoured corruption...afterwards ar least people had food, education, healthcare ...., True they did not have opportunity but many so called democracies have produced worse leaders...

I try not to view complex issues with a one dimesntional simplist views or with biased hatred

Fidel Castro RIP

Why are you wishing a dictator Rest In Peace?

Rot In Pieces Castro you tyrant. If there is a God I hope you're burning in Hell tonight.

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why are you wishing a dictator Rest In Peace?

Rot In Pieces Castro you tyrant. If there is a God I hope you're burning in Hell tonight.

Might be sharing a glass of wine with augusto pinochet right now. No wait, he was anti-communist and went to heaven or something like that.....

manofcavan

All these people giving out about Castro, how about ye go and complain to the US embassy about their torture camp in Guantanamo Bay and come back here when they give you a response.

Jawgap

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

No not 'but whatever'. Are you saying the US hasn't been waging economic warfare against the Cuban people because they had the cheek to try to exercise sovereignty over their resources for the betterment of thier people?

No, I'm saying it's called free trade for a reason. The US is not bound to trade with anyone, nor is Cuba, nor is any country.

Sovereign states are also free to set the terms on which they'll trade.

......and are you saying Castro didn't wage a war against his own people with extra-judicial killings etc? The 30,000 he admitted to imprisoning just for refusing to serve in Angola (along with God knows how many more for other reasons)?

And that's even before you start to consider what he and his inner-circle plundered from the island to line their own pockets putting him Judy inside the Top 10 on Forbes list of the Richest Dictators with $900m - naturally enough he claimed he owns nothing.

Chuchote

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I'm saying it's called free trade for a reason. The US is not bound to trade with anyone, nor is Cuba, nor is any country.

And what about any business person? In the US, it's illegal for any individual to trade with Cuba.

If you're sitting there in your Florida car dealership and you think, hmm, they have all these old American cars, I could swap those for modern low-emissions cars - great for me, because i could sell them to collectors, great for the Cuban side of the swap because they'd get a new car, and cheap to do: all I have to do is send over a ferry and bring them back - well, stop thinking because you'd be breaking US federal law.

Jawgap

MPFGLB wrote: »

It must very hollow in your black and white , one dimensional universe

Castro at war killed people but tell me how is this differnt to say I dunno Geroge W Bush invading Iraq and causing the deaths, of 100, 000s of Iraqis. Or Putin poisoning or gunning down his political enemies on the streets of London. Or Chinese governemnt opening fire on crowds in Tinneman sqaure,
Or even Michale Collins death squads against G men on the streets of Dublin

Castro had an ideology of socialism and protected his world view against the enemies as he saw them .....Like most political leaders do ...

He was not a saint but tell me which US president has been when it comes to waging war or killing enemies...its just they don't stand over the bodies

Before Castor poverty was rife in Cuba except for the few .The regime was the puppet of the US and was corrupt and favoured corruption...afterwards ar least people had food, education, healthcare ...., True they did not have opportunity but many so called democracies have produced worse leaders...

I try not to view complex issues with a one dimesntional simplist views or with biased hatred

Fidel Castro RIP

Then I'm why the rush to canonise him?

Just because he's as bad as Bush or Putin but not quite as bad as Stalin, does that mean he should get a free pass from having the totality of his regime examined?

And like all the leaders you mentioned, Castro launched his own foreign 'adventures' - most notably in Angola, but also Ethiopia, Somalia, Yemen, Algeria, Western Sahara and even to Syria during the Yom Kippur War.

Putin, Bush, Obama, Blair etc get rightly castigated for interfering in other countries' affairs but not Castro?

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

And what about any business person? In the US, it's illegal for any individual to trade with Cuba.

If you're sitting there in your Florida car dealership and you think, hmm, they have all these old American cars, I could swap those for modern low-emissions cars - great for me, because i could sell them to collectors, great for the Cuban side of the swap because they'd get a new car, and cheap to do: all I have to do is send over a ferry and bring them back - well, stop thinking because you'd be breaking US federal law.

Yes I know - and it was illegal to trade anything with Cuba that had US components in it.

Business people operate in jurisdictions and have to abide by the laws. Personally, if it was me sitting in Florida and I could be selective about which laws I could observe I'd be derogating from the ones that require me to pay tax, not the Ines that control what I can and can't export.

Of course ethically there'd be no problem foisting off cars too 'dirty' to meet US clean air rules on a less developed country?

Chuchote

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course ethically there'd be no problem foisting off cars too 'dirty' to meet US clean air rules on a less developed country?

Oooh, nice strawman!

Iwasfrozen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might be sharing a glass of wine with augusto pinochet right now. No wait, he was anti-communist and went to heaven or something like that.....

I hope they're burning together.

One can be critical of both you know.

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

Oooh, nice strawman!

No, not really, just pointing out that a lot of companies in their CRM CSR provisions decline to re-sell technology that while serviceable, has become redundant through tighter regulatory controls. The basis is simply that it's wrong, in their view, to dump stuff on markets just because those markets have lower standards.

It doesn't stop a lot of companies from doing it, but it's just a point of view.

Of course the alternative view is that such exports generally provide more utility than would otherwise be available.

EDIT: Getting my TLAs mixed up!!! CRM should read CSR

Chuchote

Yes, yes really. I was talking about someone who offered to trade modern low-emissions cars for vintage US cars in Cuba, you suddenly brought in the question of a criminal who would palm off high-emissions cars on Cubans. Very much a strawman.

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

Yes, yes really. I was talking about someone who offered to trade modern low-emissions cars for vintage US cars in Cuba, you suddenly brought in the question of a criminal who would palm off high-emissions cars on Cubans. Very much a strawman.

Criminal? Maybe re-read the posts.

I believe I questioned the ethics of such a trade?

It's quite possible to do something legal but unethical, just as it is possible to behave ethically and commit a crime.

For example, locking up people simply for being HIV positive as Cuba did may well be legal, but is it ethical?

Likewise a senior Cuban officer defecting because he became disillusioned with burying so many Cuban "boys" in Africa may be ethical, but is legal?

Chuchote

Jawgap wrote: »

Criminal? Maybe re-read the posts.

I believe I questioned the ethics of such a trade?

It's quite possible to do something legal but unethical, just as it is possible to behave ethically and commit a crime.

For example, locking up people simply for being HIV positive as Cuba did may well be legal, but is it ethical?

Likewise a senior Cuban officer defecting because he became disillusioned with burying so many Cuban "boys" in Africa may be ethical, but is legal?

Are you opening a shop for strawmen?

Who will buy my fine new strawmen ♫♪♫

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

Are you opening a shop for strawmen?

Who will buy my fine new strawmen ♫♪♫

No, just pointing out some issues for clarification......

....you know it's ok to admit you mis-read my post about ethics and thought it was about criminality (I assume you know the difference?)

There, now you can include ad hominem to your somewhat aphasic posts

brickmauser

MPFGLB wrote: »

It must very hollow in your black and white , one dimensional universe

Castro at war killed people but tell me how is this differnt to say I dunno Geroge W Bush invading Iraq and causing the deaths, of 100, 000s of Iraqis. Or Putin poisoning or gunning down his political enemies on the streets of London. Or Chinese governemnt opening fire on crowds in Tinneman sqaure,
Or even Michale Collins death squads against G men on the streets of Dublin

Castro had an ideology of socialism and protected his world view against the enemies as he saw them .....Like most political leaders do ...

He was not a saint but tell me which US president has been when it comes to waging war or killing enemies...its just they don't stand over the bodies

Before Castor poverty was rife in Cuba except for the few .The regime was the puppet of the US and was corrupt and favoured corruption...afterwards ar least people had food, education, healthcare ...., True they did not have opportunity but many so called democracies have produced worse leaders...

I try not to view complex issues with a one dimesntional simplist views or with biased hatred

Fidel Castro RIP

A dictator who tortured exiled and murdered his opponents ran a one party state and demanded the adulation of his enslaved and impoverished people is thankfully dead. A bully a thug and a monster.

brickmauser

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might be sharing a glass of wine with augusto pinochet right now. No wait, he was anti-communist and went to heaven or something like that.....

All dictators deserve hell

HS3

brickmauser wrote: »

A dictator who tortured exiled and murdered his opponents ran a one party state and demanded the adulation of his enslaved and impoverished people is thankfully dead. A bully a thug and a monster.

Would you ever please read a book and educate yourself.

A Primal Nut

It's funny that the left are so desparate for an example of communism working and this is the best they can come up with.

If I hear the term free healthcare one more time to justify everything Fidel did im gonna go mad. Like free healthcare is the only goal people need. Ignore the fact that people pay all their money bar $25 per month to the government as tax to pay for it. So no the healthcare is not free. They pay for it in large tax. But good to know that so many Irish people would be happy if the government doubled tax rates just so we get free healthcare, because that's the only thing that matters in life.

Eat ****e food every day, pay huge tax, no freedom of speech but free healthcare. Wow! And at least if you get injured from being tortured (read the statements from two human rights organisations today) thats OK because you have free healthcare to fix the problem. Those Cubans don't know how lucky they are.

One of the things I noticed is how humiliated thry are, the people begging for tourists to buy them a drink or the women turning to prostitution. The people there have been completely humiliated and it proves one thing. People ultimately want to provide for themselves and their family, there is no joy in the government taking all your money and being the provider. It makes you dependent on the government to survive, a horrible, humiliating feeling but one many people here in Ireland obviously crave.

Wanderer78

It's gonna be very sad to see Cuba wrecked by the Washington consensus but at least they'll be modernised

Chuchote

Um, last time I was in Dublin city there were beggars pleading with tourists. And here, people pay huge amounts to private insurance for a health system that includes thousands on trolleys in hospitals and regular scandals about hospital doctors who turn out not to know an arse from an elbow. (It would be cheaper if everyone paid the same amount into tax for a universal health system.) And out universities - which were free just a few years ago - are slipping rapidly down the world rankings.

brickmauser

HS3 wrote: »

Would you ever please read a book and educate yourself.

You are not living in reality if you deny what Castro was.

Castro was a tyrant.

Denying that fact makes as much sense as denying climate change or claiming OJ was framed or Savile wasn't a nonce.

The weird hero worship of dictators and terrorists by the middle class liberal left is baffling.

Iwasfrozen

Chuchote wrote: »

Um, last time I was in Dublin city there were beggars pleading with tourists. And here, people pay huge amounts to private insurance for a health system that includes thousands on trolleys in hospitals and regular scandals about hospital doctors who turn out not to know an arse from an elbow. And out universities - which were free just a few years ago - are slipping rapidly down the world rankings.

You don't get tortured here though. Minor detail I know so easy for some here to overlook.

Chuchote

No comment doesn't always mean agreement, sometimes it means 'too stupid to answer'.

brickmauser

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You don't get tortured here though. Minor detail I know so easy for some here to overlook.

If Cuban doctors screw up we don't hear about it and you can be sure a campaign by victims of malpractice would not happen in Cuba.

We know about our shoddy health service because we have a free press.

We only know Cuba has a world class health service because the Cuban regime tell us it is world class. Has it every been independently verified?

Give me a break.

Leftist defenders of Cuba swallow their propaganda without question.

Goya

Chuchote wrote: »

No comment doesn't always mean agreement, sometimes it means 'too stupid to answer'.

What's stupid about Amnesty International?

Chuchote

Flimpson wrote: »

What's stupid about Amnesty International?

Nothing at all; I don't see any mention of torture on Amnesty's page about Cuba

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/americas/cuba

apart from "The visit of the UN Special Rapporteur on torture, planned for October, was postponed by the Cuban authorities until 2010", but maybe I'm not looking deep enough? There are references to people being beaten up while being arrested or imprisoned as government opponents. Here's Amnesty's section on Ireland lest we get too feisty http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/europe/ireland

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

Um, last time I was in Dublin city there were beggars pleading with tourists. And here, people pay huge amounts to private insurance for a health system that includes thousands on trolleys in hospitals and regular scandals about hospital doctors who turn out not to know an arse from an elbow. (It would be cheaper if everyone paid the same amount into tax for a universal health system.) And out universities - which were free just a few years ago - are slipping rapidly down the world rankings.

I've been to Cuba working and holidaying. And yes, there are no beggars - or if there are we were steered away from it, which is quite possible given I was there as part of an EU-funded project so it was a delegation of sorts.

We also had a look at aspects of their healthcare system and there's no doubt the system of primary healthcare is truly excellent, but secondary and tertiary healthcare is not great.

As for patient rights? Forget about it.

Clinical governance? Nope

Medical negligence? Doesn't exist.

On other thing.....on the last day when I'd been off the clock and was on hols so was making my own way to the airport, the taxi driver had excellent English - turned out he'd studied in Canada but was now back working in Havana - as a doctor. He needed to drive the cab to make ends meet (he shared it with his brother).