Dairy chit chat II

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Don't forget dawg the average French farm is probably 10 times the size of the average Irish farm.
Heck of a lot easier to make a living if you've got ten times the infrastructure.
Land prices are also crazy here compared to France.
Not disagreeing with your opinion but that's how I see it.

+1

Reggie.

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Don't forget dawg the average French farm is probably 10 times the size of the average Irish farm.
Heck of a lot easier to make a living if you've got ten times the infrastructure.
Land prices are also crazy here compared to France.
Not disagreeing with your opinion but that's how I see it.

Also 10 times the cost I'm sure. Dawg also produces hay for the horsey crowd aswell. Their requirements are nothing to be laughed at compared to hay made here

lakill Farm

Reggie. wrote: »

Also 10 times the cost I'm sure. Dawg also produces hay for the horsey crowd aswell. Their requirements are nothing to be laughed at compared to hay made here

Sure I say the bloodstock industry in Ireland is larger than France. Look at the operation in coolmore alone

Keepgrowing

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

I'm certainly not picking on anyone!

My limit is 55.5kgN whether I use it or not. I'd go organic dairy and beef in a heartbeat but I couldn't/wouldn't with tillage. Organic beef/dairy is a farce...same antibiotics etc allowed!

Maybe it's time for a change is all I'm saying. The establishment have nailed their colors on the nitrate derogation as being all important for dairy in Ireland. Not so.
When I came here first I was well used to growing wwheat at 220-250uN per acre and now I get on just fine with 50units. The technology and know how is already there.
If the "grass fed, green washed, wholesome" image of Irish dairy is to be any way sustainable then wrecking the environment to produce it is insane.

Maybe it's time to call out the whole industry??
The nitrates regulations in Ireland are a joke. I know well that anybody can buy as many artics of fert as they like and be invoiced as anything but fert...!
The nitrates 'averaging' across the whole country is a joke...the authorities don't even know nor care how much chemical fert is imported into Ireland!!
The import/export of organic manure between farms is a joke...maps are all that gets imported/exported.
The whole system is a joke!

My nitrates are calculated on mineral nitrogen soil tests to a depth of 90cm, number of animals on farm and all imported organic manures. All manure must have two samples tested p.a.
I've absolutely no chance of buying a few falsely invoiced artics of fert either!
That's pretty much how to regulate nitrates. Farm by farm, field by field, paddock by paddock.

For an industry to stand on its high and mighty pedestal, claiming to produce the most natural, wholesome produce while destroying the environment is not sustainable.

If there were to be a decent, in depth, 'Prime Time Investigates' type of undercover program, what kinda Pandora's box would be opened?

The mind boggles.

If we're such a joke you must be delighted your not farming here.

I read half you post.

We are far from a joke, a little manners

Gawddawggonnit

Keepgrowing wrote: »

If we're such a joke you must be delighted your not farming here.

I read half you post.

We are far from a joke, a little manners

Hmmm...
Did I call anybody a joke? If so I apologise to that person...

Indeed I may lack manners, but I fail to see what my social etiquette has to do with nitrate regulations...???

Gawddawggonnit

To answer a few replies to my post.

The last time I looked the average farm size in France is circa 50ha...

Whether my/your farm supports one or fifty families has nothing to do with nitrates.

Whether my/your farm is capable of growing one or twenty ton DM/ha is irrelevant.

And yes, I stand over everything I've posted as being true.


I'm getting the feeling that this subject has touched a nerve...

jaymla627

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Hmmm...
Did I call anybody a joke? If so I apologise to that person...

Indeed I may lack manners, but I fail to see what my social etiquette has to do with nitrate regulations...???

The rod been made for farmers back re nitrates by our esteemed government local authorities and the Eu is pretty laughable when you consider 10 tons of raw sewerage a minute is being pumped into rivers and seas nationwide with 44 plants having no treatment facilities with a pipe simply running into the nearest sea/waterway....
I might be very cynical but it's a massive pisstake the whole system, the EPA/local authority can shut you down if they take a notion our make you spend a fortune to comply with nitrates regulations but they on the other hand are above all reproach and only for the fact the EU is threatening massive fines to get the sewerage plants in order noting would be done and infact isn't been done as the funding doesn't exist of course their was the whole Irish water dibacle but that's another days work....
In real world terms my nitrates are under 170kgs/ha but to get them right on paper I'd be looking at forking out 20 odd grand extra a year to get hold of maps on ground I rent,am already paying 500 euro a hectare so it's a no go

Floki

The truth is agriculture in Ireland is governed by science based information and data.
Water quality is regularly tested and is improving (mostly).
Teagasc have numerous research test plots monitoring various npk applications and seeing how they apply to different soil types and water catchment areas. This information is available from teagasc.

Dawg goes on about his farm in France and what regulations he's been subjected to. Now probably soil temperature has a big thing to do with it as nitrogen fixing bacteria (well all bacteria activity) increases with temperature (and moisture) (think of the process of the tropics and growth and no N spread) of about 15 degrees and more. How often does this happen in Ireland? Only in the summer, August September . This process also happens in water and warmer water temps can fix atmospheric nitrogen just by increased microbial life and eating and being eaten.
Anyway back to Ireland grass grows at 5 degrees soil temperature but natural bacterial growth will only start at roughly 10 increasing with every degree in temperature above this as long as it's supplied with enough moisture and other bacteria or minerals. This is why teagasc recommends early application of N to feed the grass as the background N simply won't be here in the soil (used up during the winter by the grass).

Ireland and France are two different countries and maybe their scientists recommended this N level based on what's being tested at their estuaries but then don't forget that France acts on emotions over science and wants to ban glyphosphate.

Thank God for big Phil in the Eu and not a French beurocrat.

Although maybe some would like to see French policies implemented Eu wide just so they could sleep better?

blackdog1

Gawddawggonnit wrote:

I'm getting the feeling that this subject has touched a nerve...

If people were to spread less fertiliser that would mean they would have to feed more meal and maize etc and change they're breeding back to higher yielding holsteins. So no surprise you got that response 😀

Willfarman

Dawg made some very valid points. Our nitrates dept are a farce. A beirocratic quango.

K.G.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

To answer a few replies to my post.

The last time I looked the average farm size in France is circa 50ha...

Whether my/your farm supports one or fifty families has nothing to do with nitrates.

Whether my/your farm is capable of growing one or twenty ton DM/ha is irrelevant.

And yes, I stand over everything I've posted as being true.


I'm getting the feeling that this subject has touched a nerve...

If you think youve touched a nerve you should mention the fact that large areas of the country should never have been put under these regulations in the first place if politicans had a bit of back bone and divide the country in vunerable zones and non vunerable zones.

kowtow

I think there are some valid points raised here on both sides.

1. The fact that NVZ's were passed by, presumably for fairness, does seem odd.
2. No matter that the nitrates system is well intended, the calendar farming elements of it lead directly to unneccesary environmental damage year in year out. It is the bureaucratic equivalent of death by friendly fire.
3. Irish land prices, not to mention inputs, are outrageously high compared to France - for example - but whether this is a cause of the intensity or an effect is difficult to say. Land prices and a somewhat primitive rental market with it's roots in the Feudal system certainly make Organic farming - for example - a braver and more risky jump than it perhaps ought to be.

But whatever the cause, and no matter how science based our approach may be, there seems to be an increasing acceptance lately that milk from grass may be more valuable to us as a premium label than it is as a cheap input. That's something we have to reconcile and if we go that way we are going to have to be careful not to fall into the Irish trap of worrying more about the packaging than what is inside it. We have to have a bit more confidence in our land and in ourselves. If we could do better with less nitrogen, more multi-species swards, gm free Irish tillage etc. etc. then we should be open to it I reckon.

alps

K.G. wrote: »

If you think youve touched a nerve you should mention the fact that large areas of the country should never have been put under these regulations in the first place if politicans had a bit of back bone and divide the country in vunerable zones and non vunerable zones.

Bingo

blackdog1

French land prices are way lower but if you have 3 children you can't give the farm to just 1 child... The farm will be divided in 3. Its the law. Now imagine that happening here.... How many of us would be farmers if this happened?

Floki

blackdog1 wrote: »

French land prices are way lower but if you have 3 children you can't give the farm to just 1 child... The farm will be divided in 3. Its the law. Now imagine that happening here.... How many of us would be farmers if this happened?

Happens here in a lot of places just not the law.
Swings and roundabouts though ... you have to give first preference to a neighbouring farmer if you want to sell land and then the authorities can nearly set the sale price afaik. So it's a bit easier to expand a holding in one block than here. ( Just become a nightmare neighbour.):pac:
It seems a very very bureaucratic farming system tightly controlled by the government and authorities out there. Good or bad? I don't know.

Reggie.

lakill Farm wrote: »

Sure I say the bloodstock industry in Ireland is larger than France. Look at the operation in coolmore alone

Yeah but they are all in house. No one here produces hay for them

And that's only one farm in the whole of the country

Willfarman

A lot of Irish trainers going to France for the yearlings and 2 year olds. Some seriously good value appareantly

Reggie.

Keepgrowing wrote: »

If we're such a joke you must be delighted your not farming here.

I read half you post.

We are far from a joke, a little manners

I think you'll find he was calling the system a joke and not the farmers

Floki

Reggie. wrote: »

Yeah but they are all in house. No one here produces hay for them

There's a fair few loads of hay coming in from france to local stud farms here these last few years ( buying all in) and I'd say the odd one goes to Coolmore too.

There would be a lot of stud farms and general farms breeding Selle francais sport horses on the side and then those trotting sulky horses as well as the thoroughbreds out there. Add on a few draft meat farms too.

Reggie.

Floki wrote: »

There's a fair few loads of hay coming in from france to local stud farms here these last few years ( buying all in) and I'd say the odd one goes to Coolmore too.

There would be a lot of stud farms and general farms breeding Selle francais sport horses on the side and then those trotting sulky horses as well as the thoroughbreds out there. Add on a few draft meat farms too.

Yep. I'd rather be Making my own hay than trying to make hay for export to the fancy horsey men. They can be very picky

Floki

Reggie. wrote: »

I think you'll find he was calling the system a joke and not the farmers

Easy do that when you're 700 miles away.:p

Go through his posts. He loves the irish dairy expansion and grass to milk posts.
Now i'm all for constructive criticism but if he wasn't a large scale farmer in france you'd nearly think he was a vegan with a life mission.

And that's being polite and constructive criticism with a hint of humour.

Floki

Reggie. wrote: »

Yep. I'd rather be Making my own hay than trying to make hay for export to the fancy horsey men. They can be very picky

If the weather plays ball it's very easy and they don't want poor hay to loose weight, easy enough to do that.
They want hay with good energy and protein with no mould and stuff that they can perform on. Rocket fuel in other words.

Reggie.

Floki wrote: »

If the weather plays ball it's very easy and they don't want poor hay to loose weight, easy enough to do that.
They want hay with good energy and protein with no mould and stuff that they can perform on. Rocket fuel in other words.

Try making that in this country:D

Reggie.

Floki wrote: »

Easy do that when you're 700 miles away.:p

Go through his posts. He loves the irish dairy expansion and grass to milk posts.
Now i'm all for constructive criticism but if he wasn't a large scale farmer in france you'd nearly think he was a vegan with a life mission.

And that's being polite and constructive criticism with a hint of humour.

But ain't lads here saying the same thing about the system at different times if the year themselves?

Floki

Reggie. wrote: »

But ain't lads here saying the same thing about the system at different times if the year themselves?

We're not supposed to discuss posters so i'll stick with the post.

He was saying it's a joke because he read what other posters posted about maps and verbal agreements when another poster posted about not getting a sfp and being over the limit on paper when that poster took land and the landowners kept the sfp.
In my mind he was getting frustrated because of how strict it is in france and how he perceives it to be lax in this country from the posts coming up on boards.
Usually when someone says it's a joke here it's because of the tightening of the rules every year and using the sfp as a pot to take fines from till it reaches 0 not a joke from lack of regulation.
Anyway that's my take on it.

Dried all the cows off here today. So it'll be a little bit quieter here now.

Willfarman

The hayledge I see the the buckos around here making for racehorses wouldn't be worth a ****e to cattle. Tall stemmy ryegrass. Sweet but very fibrous

blue5000

Floki wrote: »

We're not supposed to discuss posters so i'll stick with the post.

He was saying it's a joke because he read what other posters posted about maps and verbal agreements when another poster posted about not getting a sfp and being over the limit on paper when that poster took land and the landowners kept the sfp.
In my mind he was getting frustrated because of how strict it is in france and how he perceives it to be lax in this country from the posts coming up on boards.
Usually when someone says it's a joke here it's because of the tightening of the rules every year and using the sfp as a pot to take fines from till it reaches 0 not a joke from lack of regulation.
Anyway that's my take on it.

Dried all the cows off here today. So it'll be a little bit quieter here now.

Mod note; Ok calm down everyone, let this be the end of it now gentlemen

Reggie.

Willfarman wrote: »

The hayledge I see the the buckos around here making for racehorses wouldn't be worth a ****e to cattle. Tall stemmy ryegrass. Sweet but very fibrous

Think that's the stuff horses need ain't it so not to put on weight

Birdnuts

K.G. wrote: »

By the same token the epa will have to prove nitrates in the river came directly from his farm.different story if it was pollution from his yard or something

They will go after such people if excessive nitrates or algal growth is found in nearby lakes/rivers. And it not just about pollution "events" ie.point spillages, they have techniques that will pick up a long/medium term decline in water quality using biological methods

Signpost

getting a lot of visits from the pri*cks of no fixed abode the last few weeks, fortunately in the yard basically constantly so no issue yet but thinking an automatic gate is going to be a necessary investment. How does this fare out with the milk truck does anyone know? Do I need one with number plate recognition or give them a fob or how do people deal with this issue? Not much point getting it if its open over night for 2am collection every second night