Dairy chit chat II

Wildsurfer

jaymla627 wrote: »

I'd rather let the neighbour have it and just put more meal into the cows if you want to go up in numbers, you'll easily buy in a good 3 way mix to balance grass for sub 200 a ton, let say on the 20 acres you utilize 112 ton of dm, it will cost just shy of 21000 to match this output with imported feed, when your talking of it costing 40 plus grand a year to meet repayments/development costs/and running costs(fert/spray etc) on the bought in block it just further hammers home if a real economic cost is attributed to land ownership it alters the figures of grazed grass been a cheap feed immensely

Did your father ever buy any land that you are farming? I know mine did and without it I wouldn't be farming as I wouldn't have a viable enterprise. The reality is farms will keep getting bigger and those farms will have buying power which will squeeze out the smaller guys. I think every generation feels a bit of pain paying back for land but the next generation reaps the benefits.

The part time boy

George is spot on there .



It all depends what you want a COP to do .

If it drive home to coop that it's not cheap to produce milk and not shout from roof tops that we are cheapest in Europe to produce milk then ya there sense to adding land value also I agrue that 15 euro a hour is too cheap for management of a dairy farm 20 euro a hour is more like it at a minimum.

However I think a COP should inform a farmer how much it actally costs to produce milk . Of course yes it should include a wage to the farmer not drawings.

So If your COP that includes wages but not land rental is 29 cent and milk price is below 29 you know your in trouble . Either u need to cut costs or hopefully you created a rainday fund when price was good and you can dip Into it .

Mooooo

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Land rental value of your owned land is an opportunity cost

Google opportunity cost
It's not something you can put in your hand unless you take up the opportunity
In which case you're not farming anymore ergo you wouldn't be a farmer

Other opportunity costs affecting me is not having done Rocket science at college or medicine
I could have earned a lot more money than on the farm

None of these things are a cost against my production because I wouldn't be producing if I did them

Ergo owned land price/potential rental is not a CoP

So let's put that nonsense to bed

What you pay yourself or what you should be paying yourself is a CoP on the other hand,a real tangible cost not imagination

So we are to be unique in the business world not taking into account opportunity cost??

rangler1

mf240 wrote: »

Bord bia is a load of dung but it's not that hard to get trough it. Even the lads at it know it's a load of shyte but it's a handy job .

If supermarkets value QA like they say, it's stupid for farmers to be discrediting it on here....you're only devaluing your own efforts.
I know from going around that I wouldn't be too happy about drinking milk from some of the farms I see , one that was ignored for years, much to my disgust, got a good compulsory destocking lately T.G. But the fact was it was ignored for years.......an annual independent walk round accreditation won't do a bit of harm.

George Sunsnow

Mooooo wrote: »

So we are to be unique in the business world not taking into account opportunity cost??

We don't have anything chargeable with land rented out as I said
If you rent it you are no longer farming it
Nothing unique about that

yewtree

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Land rental value of your owned land is an opportunity cost

Google opportunity cost
It's not something you can put in your hand unless you take up the opportunity
In which case you're not farming anymore ergo you wouldn't be a farmer

Other opportunity costs affecting me is not having done Rocket science at college or medicine
I could have earned a lot more money than on the farm

None of these things are a cost against my production because I wouldn't be producing if I did them

Ergo owned land price/potential rental is not a CoP

So let's put that nonsense to bed

What you pay yourself or what you should be paying yourself is a CoP on the other hand,a real tangible cost not imagination

Without using opportunity cost you have no clue how the farm is going. If you can make more money out of renting the place, would you not be better off doing that?

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

I'd rather let the neighbour have it and just put more meal into the cows if you want to go up in numbers, you'll easily buy in a good 3 way mix to balance grass for sub 200 a ton, let say on the 20 acres you utilize 112 ton of dm, it will cost just shy of 21000 to match this output with imported feed, when your talking of it costing 40 plus grand a year to meet repayments/development costs/and running costs(fert/spray etc) on the bought in block it just further hammers home if a real economic cost is attributed to land ownership it alters the figures of grazed grass been a cheap feed immensely

€2000 per year in repayments and upkeep??
Seriously

Gawddawggonnit

whelan2 wrote: »

First Autumn calver calved this morning. Not due until September 1st. Small fr heifer calf

Snap.
Bunch of heifers due to calve from September but one decided to come early. A neighbor called into the parlor at 6 to tell me. Off I went to see alls well...feckin monster of a calf that had to be jacked. Both are fine. First calf from a *supposedly* easy calving part bull.

It didn't help that I had a gallery of about 20 cyclists watching me.

George Sunsnow

yewtree wrote: »

Without using opportunity cost you have no clue how the farm is going. If you can make more money out of renting the place, would you not be better off doing that?

Yes of course you would!

However until you do that it's an opportunity cost totally unrelated to the production you are currently doing on the farm

The key word is production
Unless the cost is involved in making the product it is not a cost against that product

Opportunity cost sure is a tool to evaluate decisions as to whether to farm or not
It's also by extension a weapon against your processor to be waved if you can get more from renting or selling than producing

The concept of opportunity cost and cost of production should not be confused

The latter is a tool only,a personal tool to evaluate decisions
Nothing else

Mooooo

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Yes of course you would!

However until you do that it's an opportunity cost totally unrelated to the production you are currently doing on the farm

The key word is production
Unless the cost is involved in making the product it is not a cost against that product

Opportunity cost sure is a tool to evaluate decisions as to whether to farm or not
It's also by extension a weapon against your processor to be waved if you can get more from renting or selling than producing

The concept of opportunity cost and cost of production should not be confused

The latter is a tool only,a personal tool to evaluate decisions
Nothing else

For years the cop quoted by industry didn't include land, which for you as an individual may have been fine but for farmers as a group it was not as many had land bought etc. The buyers were looking how low they could pay and the cost of the land the milk came from wasn't even considered I think the initial question posed by a poster trying to work out if they should go dairying should include it and also the published cop figures in media should include it as many of us are paying for land.

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Snap.
Bunch of heifers due to calve from September but one decided to come early. A neighbor called into the parlor at 6 to tell me. Off I went to see alls well...feckin monster of a calf that had to be jacked. Both are fine. First calf from a *supposedly* easy calving part bull.

It didn't help that I had a gallery of about 20 cyclists watching me.

Will keep an eye out for you in Facebook so

George Sunsnow

Mooooo wrote: »

For years the cop quoted by industry didn't include land, which for you as an individual may have been fine but for farmers as a group it was not as many had land bought etc. The buyers were looking how low they could pay and the cost of the land the milk came from wasn't even considered I think the initial question posed by a poster trying to work out if they should go dairying should include it and also the published cop figures in media should include it as many of us are paying for land.

Buying land is a cost of production
That's completely different
You write it off against production and if the money was borrowed,the interest too

It ceases to be a CoP once it is 100% written off

mf240

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Buying land is a cost of production
That's completely different
You write it off against production and if the money was borrowed,the interest too

It ceases to be a CoP once it is 100% written off

Next time your in a restaurant ask the owner if he has the establishment paid for, and if he has then tell him you want to pay less for your meal.

George Sunsnow

mf240 wrote: »

Next time your in a restaurant ask the owner if he has the establishment paid for, and if he has then tell him you want to pay less for your meal.

Why?
Just like the farmer when he has his loan paid off he'd have more money left out of his earnings because the cost is gone

If the restaurant or land was bought with previous retained earnings or other savings then the income from it is a return not a cost at all

You'll still have the opportunity cost tool to evaluate whether you should have bought the restaurant or the land in the first place or sell it it on or rent it etc

Brown Podzol

Land, labour, capital and entrepreneurship are the factors off production. All are scarce and so have a cost.
I didn't make it up. It's the basis of all economics.

alps

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Buying land is a cost of production
That's completely different
You write it off against production and if the money was borrowed,the interest too

It ceases to be a CoP once it is 100% written off

Completely incorrect....

Interest on borrowed money is entered on Irish COP models, the capital repayment is not, nor should it be. You have bought a capital asset which may appreciate or depreciate over time. The value you can derive from it in the meantime is the rental value of it....easily determined.

In the European Economic cost of production models I referred to, the use your labour and facilities are part equation...factual..

I'm beginning to think you represent Tesco or glanbia or such other..

I sat through a presentation from Sean Molloy of glanbia last Winter, and his thought process frightened me. He believed that 6c was a fair margin for the farmers labour, and he knew that milk cost 22c to produce, and that 28c was a fair and reflective price to be matching to customers in the marketplace...

Letting the likes of Molloy and yourself off with thinking they can have the use of our facilities for nothing is horsechyte

George Sunsnow

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Land, labour, capital and entrepreneurship are the factors off production. All are scarce and so have a cost.
I didn't make it up. It's the basis of all economics.

An opportunity cost maybe
How in the name of blazes could selling or renting the land I use to produce milk be a cost against the milk production?
Where's the cost of that action?

No one has explained that yet

I suppose I could try sue my self for ending the business
I can hear the lawyers laughing

kowtow

George Sunsnow wrote:

Google opportunity cost It's not something you can put in your hand unless you take up the opportunity In which case you're not farming anymore ergo you wouldn't be a farmer

Of course you can.

You can farm less ground and rent it out and still be a farmer.

Or rent half the land and put cows indoors.

But that is not the point. If you don't make some allowance for land you cannot properly understand your business, and most importantly it's scalability (or otherwise). You are working from a distorted model.

Again it comes back to different uses for models. Probably for most people the variable cost of production is the one which colours most daily and seasonal decisions. In particular where comparison of feeds is concerned it's important to have a land charge reckoned, or you are going to find that one mouthful of silage is suddenly more expensive than the previous one.

George Sunsnow

alps wrote: »

Completely incorrect....

Interest on borrowed money is entered on Irish COP models, the capital repayment is not, nor should it be. You have bought a capital asset which may appreciate or depreciate over time.

Thats not the fullest picture
You can vary the value of an asset in your books at anytime which affects your bottom line,you cannot do that with an opportunity cost like potential rental

The value you can derive from it in the meantime is the rental value of it....easily determined.

Can you answer the question I've asked then as to where that 'cost' is ever tangible and where its relationship is to the cost of what you're producing ?
You can't because it's non existent unless you close down production

Water John

I think you hit the nail on the head there Mooo. When they are putting up 6 cent as the margin the farmer should have/needs, you really know you are being treated as price takers.

If you work it out, that puts a farmer with 100 cows earning the min wage per hour. Lets see any management or even employees at any level in our milk processors accept that for themselves.

George Sunsnow

kowtow wrote: »

Of course you can.

You can farm less ground and rent it out and still be a farmer.

Or rent half the land and put cows indoors.

Oh of course
I simplified it too much by just dealing with a case of a farmer exiting by selling or renting all instead of farming
Doing what you suggest,Its still not income from farm production.
But what you might have done there is increase the cost of production on the remaining farm business,negating some of the benefit of renting

But that is not the point. If you don't make some allowance for land you cannot properly understand your business, and most importantly it's scalability (or otherwise). .

It's not about an allowance to be made it's about evaluating what's best for you
That's a tool called opportunity cost

yewtree

Did anyone here ever test dairy cow ration to check for energy and protein levels?
I know you can work out energy content based on inclusion level of ingredients.

freedominacup

yewtree wrote: »

Did anyone here ever test dairy cow ration to check for energy and protein levels?
I know you can work out energy content based on inclusion level of ingredients.

Yes. Tested the blend we were using a couple of times last winter. Tested slightly better than expected. Our own formulation so only quality ingredients.

alps

yewtree wrote: »

Did anyone here ever test dairy cow ration to check for energy and protein levels?
I know you can work out energy content based on inclusion level of ingredients.

Yes...tested pretty much as the label said. You can expect some deviation.

However a friend of mine sent a sample in the last week to test for mycotixin levels, and it came back 10 times higher than the recommended tolerances. He has been plagued all summer from mastitis outbreaks, despite spending big money on parlour servicing and changing liners and rubbers a number of times. He had covered every angle and was left with the only outstanding area being the ration.

He is feeding between 4 and 6 kg all summer, and his concerns were confirmed. His belief is that this year SOYA hulls and maize meal are extremely high in mycotixins..He has now insured that his supplier includes a binder for the rest of the year.

freedominacup

alps wrote: »

Yes...tested pretty much as the label said. You can expect some deviation.

However a friend of mine sent a sample in the last week to test for mycotixin levels, and it came back 10 times higher than the recommended tolerances. He has been plagued all summer from mastitis outbreaks, despite spending big money on parlour servicing and changing liners and rubbers a number of times. He had covered every angle and was left with the only outstanding area being the ration.

He is feeding between 4 and 6 kg all summer, and his concerns were confirmed. His belief is that this year SOYA hulls and maize meal are extremely high in mycotixins..He has now insured that his supplier includes a binder for the rest of the year.

What is a binder?

yosemitesam1

freedominacup wrote: »

alps wrote: »

Yes...tested pretty much as the label said. You can expect some deviation.

However a friend of mine sent a sample in the last week to test for mycotixin levels, and it came back 10 times higher than the recommended tolerances. He has been plagued all summer from mastitis outbreaks, despite spending big money on parlour servicing and changing liners and rubbers a number of times. He had covered every angle and was left with the only outstanding area being the ration.

He is feeding between 4 and 6 kg all summer, and his concerns were confirmed. His belief is that this year SOYA hulls and maize meal are extremely high in mycotixins..He has now insured that his supplier includes a binder for the rest of the year.

What is a binder?

It neutralises the toxin, the mill should really be doing that for free if they're selling poor quality grain that they probably penalized the grower for

yewtree

Thanks lads for the replies, where did you get it tested?

alps

yewtree wrote: »

Thanks lads for the replies, where did you get it tested?

Tested by Trouw....

alps

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It neutralises the toxin, the mill should really be doing that for free if they're selling poor quality grain that they probably penalized the grower for

They are now, for this man.

This is soya hulls and maize meal that is suspect, and will be the same ingredient common to many compounders..

MF290

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/15/seven-percent-of-americans-think-chocolate-milk-comes-from-brown-cows-and-thats-not-even-the-scary-part/