'Young men in Ireland need feminism'

Edups

bluewolf wrote: »

There are so many arguments out there about how feminism can help men as well, but of course, it's easier to just foam at the mouth about how evil women are and everything is our fault

Or course it's your fault bluewolf. It can't be mens fault. That's outrageous.

Mr Joe

bluewolf wrote: »

There are so many arguments out there about how feminism can help men as well, but of course, it's easier to just foam at the mouth about how evil women are and everything is our fault

It's feminism that is evil not women. Most women aren't feminists. It's a typical tactic feminists like to use that people who don't subscribe to it hate women. No they just hate the insane ideology that feminism has become.

The Moldy Gowl

bigpink wrote: »

Will they reveal themselves?wonder will they get jnto politics

No. They won't reveal themselves. Why do they need to?
It's not really a secret in limerick who they are.
A journalist gave their names a few years ago so they do the give interviews to him anymore as far as I know.


I doubt he would go into politics. They just enjoy doing weird art stuff these days
He would get elected in limerick anyway.

DredFX

LLMMLL wrote: »

Be realistic. Women get involved in feminism as individuals. They want to campaign on certain issues and are more likely to campaign on issues close to their hearts.

It's completely pointless to come along and say to someone with finite campaigning time "oh you should be campaigning for men's rights or the rights of women in Africa".

So, it's a "We'll help ourselves, then give them a hand later attitude"?

Admirable, selfless thinking. Sign me up!

LLMMLL

DredFX wrote: »

So, it's a "We'll help ourselves, then give them a hand later attitude"?

Admirable, selfless thinking. Sign me up!

Do it's selfish when people campaign on issues that affect them?

Martin Luther King..... So selfish....... Gandhi....... He was the worst.

Come on. Don't chastise feminists for something you actually don't have a problem with.

Widdershins

Feminism cannot help those young men unless it changes direction and decides to focus on the employment crisis. Regardless of who's doing the breadwinning and who's doing the childrearing, without jobs, and without education and training, couples and families are in trouble. If they had access to jobs that paid enough it wouldn't be a concern.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

God almighty, I'm picturing people picketing a cholera-research fundraiser with signs saying 'What about men malaria'

For anyone who's interested in men's issues beyond pissing and moaning on the internet any time the word feminism is mentioned and not immediately followed by 'is the worst thing that's ever happened', here are some links

https://ie.movember.com/

http://www.amen.ie/donate.html

http://menssheds.ie/

coffee_cake

Lewis Purple Bather wrote: »

http://menssheds.ie/

This one looks brilliant very good initiative

Grayson

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Eh, the thread was started because a clown went on the Late Late and got applauded for saying men are topping themselves because they had a feminism deficiency and you're trying to turn this into being about women always being told everything is their fault??

They are linked. The old patriarchal world view had the man as the provider and women staying at home. Feminism is freeing women from that but it does leave men in a limbo.

As a guy I understand. I was raised to be a breadwinner and to earn enough to support a family. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's kinda noble. The desire to take responsibility, step up and be a man, is not a bad thing. The problem is when this is tied to your self worth. If a woman is earning more, you feel bad. If you don't earn enough than you don't feel like you have anything to offer. We tie our self worth to our ability to earn and provide.

Thing is that's a side effect of feminism, not an aim of it. The point of feminism is that women shouldn't be tied to a worldview which left them as second class citizens. Anyone that thinks they should be is an idiot.

Feminism does offer men an opportunity. We can be more than one dimensional earners. We can tie our self worth to our personalities and achievements rather than our wage packet. We do have a lot to offer. We can be their friend, their companion and their lovers without needing to display our wages and status like a peacocks mating display.

I can understand a desire to talk about how feminism affects men but it's wrong to blame or hate feminism.

DredFX

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do it's selfish when people campaign [just] on issues that affect them?

With one edit, a strawman becomes a rational argument.

retro:electro

There is never going to be gram for gram equality in any society. Sometimes women have privilege over men and sometimes men have privilege over women. It's just how the world works and it's never going to change. Aspiring for anything else is completely unrealistic.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

There is never going to be gram for gram equality in any society. Sometimes women have privilege over men and sometimes men have privilege over women. It's just how the world works and it's never going to change. Aspiring for anything else is completely unrealistic.

100% disagree that we shouldn't try for a fairer society for all.

retro:electro

GingerLily wrote: »

100% disagree that we shouldn't try for a fairer society for all.

But "feminists" today aren't trying for equality, they're trying for female superiority in the guise of gender equality.

kylith

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Eh, the thread was started because a clown went on the Late Late and got applauded for saying men are topping themselves because they had a feminism deficiency and you're trying to turn this into being about women always being told everything is their fault??

OR this thread was started because a man who wants to remain anonymous went on telly and spoke about the fact that young men are killing themselves because of outdated ideas about gender roles, and apparently some people are under the impression that this is women's fault.

LLMMLL

DredFX wrote: »

With one edit, a strawman becomes a rational argument.

But the examples I gave were campaigning for one group of people. Do by your logic these famous lauded activists were selfish.

Icemancometh

I think this thread reflects the lack of a common definition of feminism; it seems to be in eye of the beholder. It seems to lead to mixed messages.

Feminist 1: "I think there a lot of issues affecting men in modern society, and I think the solution to these lie in engaging with feminsim."

Man: "I don't feel represented by feminism, and have yet to see it engaging in issues affecting men."

Feminist 2: "Why should we engage on your behalf, we have enough to do be doing helping ourselves."

Personally I think of modern feminist movements as a kind of trade union for women. I might support feminism the way I support the GRA, but I not associated with either.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

But "feminists" today aren't trying for equality, they're trying for female superiority in the guise of gender equality.

I didn't mention feminists in my quote

LLMMLL

Icemancometh wrote: »

Feminist 2: "Why should we engage on your behalf, we have enough to do be doing helping ourselves."

I think that's an unfair characterisation. They don't feel like they're just helping themselves. They feel they're helping other women. Campaigning for your own group is not a 100 % selfish action

DredFX

LLMMLL wrote: »

But the examples I gave were campaigning for one group of people. Do by your logic these famous lauded activists were selfish.

Except that Martin Luther encouraged peaceful activism and nonviolence in addition to black rights, hoping to attain equality through friendship and discourse.
This was a philosophy he'd learned from, *gasp*, Gandhi, who also vied for women's rights and religious freedom, in and out of India.

There was no just-us sentiment with Luther or Gandhi, even if their achievements suggested otherwise. Those at the opposite end of spectrum mattered in bringing them closer.

Here, Blindboy insists that we engage with feminism. Hearing, 'it's not realistic for us to worry about male's problems as well', is not assisting his message.

Icemancometh

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think that's an unfair characterisation. They don't feel like they're just helping themselves. They feel they're helping other women. Campaigning for your own group is not a 100 % selfish action

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part (although I did say "ourselves" not "myself"). I didn't mean it in a grasping or greedy way, more in advocating for women generally in society. In the same way that the IFA advocates for farmers, or IBEC for business interests.

WoolyJumper

I am a man and I would consider myself a feminist. Womens role in society have changed so much and are still changing but through all of this positive change men have gotten left behind a bit. We kind of forgot that if women's roles change then mens roles would also change. But we still raise boys with the idea that they need to be strong, dominant and providers and that almost clashes with expectation that women need to be independent and strong.

I think to achieve greater equality we have to do more than just teach boys about respect for women but also deal with mens roles in society. They are still really ridged. Men and women alike are still not comfortable with men being more sensitive and emotional. We have to teach men that its okay to not be strong all the time, that its okay to be vulnerable. I know what i'm saying will come up against a lot of scrutiny and that's because we still see that in men as weak and maybe even pathetic.

I just think some men get lost in society, don't know what their roles are suppose to be. Its not acceptable to be overly dominant, to be a chauvinist but at the other side you can't be seen as weak. I think this leading a lot of men to becoming disenfranchised.

Im gay, and in some ways and I really want to emphasise *in some ways* it's easier being a gay man. It takes the pressure off a little. Its okay to be an emotional, vulnerable gay man. I don't have some of the same pressures and expectations straight men have. (Im sorry fellow gays, don't worry I know we have it harder in a lot of other ways)

Didas

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The word feminism appears to be a trigger word for the anti feminist/alt right crew.

Blindboy spoke sensibly about the insecurity men can feel if they do not have the whole package and the inevitable loneliness that arises from this if this issue is allowed to eat away at a fella. If you accept the point that women can look after themselves and don't need a hero then a fella who is insecure may actually genuinely connect with someone without the need for bravado or lies.

He made some excellent points, mainly around the fact that in modern society it takes two decent earners to get on the property ladder and start a family, so men who feel they need to be the traditional breadwinner are going are putting unneccessary pressure on thrmselves and are going to be dissappointed.

His use of the word feminism was unfortunate purely because it didnt accurately convey what he was actually saying. Feminism means such different things to everyone, so as a term it's pointless.

retro:electro

GingerLily wrote: »

I didn't mention feminists in my quote

Right.. But this thread is about feminism.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I think to achieve greater equality we have to do more than just teach boys about respect for women but also deal with mens roles in society. They are still really ridged. Men and women alike are still not comfortable with men being more sensitive and emotional. We have to teach men that its okay to not be strong all the time, that its okay to be vulnerable. I know what i'm saying will come up against a lot of scrutiny and that's because we still see that in men as weak and maybe even pathetic.

I do think that's changing. I work with a suicide prevention/bereavement organisation, have done on and off for the past ten years or so. Over that ten years I've definitely seen a change in the young men who are coming through. Both in terms of talking about their experiences and emotions in front of their peers (these would be school/college groups) and in terms of being emotional - in the early days I remember a couple of occasions where a young man would be close to tears and then switch into anger, that hasn't happened in ages.

Mind you, the rates of youth male suicide in Ireland have remained fcuking atrocious, though if there had been no recession and something approaching a functioning mental health infrastructure over that period maybe it'd be different.

Please please please don't ever kill yourselves lads.

Mr Joe

tonygun wrote: »

He made some excellent points, mainly around the fact that in modern society it takes two decent earners to get on the property ladder and start a family, so men who feel they need to be the traditional breadwinner are going are putting unneccessary pressure on thrmselves and are going to be dissappointed.

His use of the word feminism was unfortunate purely because it didnt accurately convey what he was actually saying. Feminism means such different things to everyone, so as a term it's pointless.

If that was a point he made it's not a bad one, but he is never going to get through to young men then preaching about feminism. Any that would be watching would be changing the channel as soon as that tired stuff starts being churned out. You can't start preaching feminism while RTE are showing feminist documentaries claiming all men are rapists and there is a rape culture in Ireland. Feminism is poison these days and most young men despise it, because it despises them.

AnGaelach

Grayson wrote: »

I'm a feminist

Has it gotten you your hole yet?

kylith

tonygun wrote: »

His use of the word feminism was unfortunate purely because it didnt accurately convey what he was actually saying. Feminism means such different things to everyone, so as a term it's pointless.

Unfortunately the corresponding male term is completely useless, being apparently inseparable from sexism and chauvinism and, imo, downright dangerous to men.

jonon9

Have you seen the state of young lads nowadays they look more and more like women everyday, And no we don't need more feminist **** what we need is less of it.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Mr Joe wrote: »

If that was a point he made it's not a bad one, but he is never going to get through to young men then preaching about feminism. Any that would be watching would be changing the channel as soon as that tired stuff starts being churned out. You can't start preaching feminism while RTE are showing feminist documentaries claiming all men are rapists and there is a rape culture in Ireland. Feminism is poison these days and most young men despise it, because it despises them.

Not all young men come out in hives at mention of the word feminism, I know plenty young men who are very into it. Not all young men are aware or would give a crap that there's some culture war on the internet being fought.

I'd think his credibility among younger men is pretty high, and I'd say for many young men they'd be thinking 'hmm, yer man from the Rubberbandits, I like him, what do I think about what he's saying' without having some big flashing 'NEE NAW NEE NAW FEMINISM! WARNING, FEMINISM! RUN!' alarm going off in their heads

AnGaelach

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I am a man and I would consider myself a feminist. Womens role in society have changed so much and are still changing but through all of this positive change men have gotten left behind a bit. We kind of forgot that if women's roles change then mens roles would also change. But we still raise boys with the idea that they need to be strong, dominant and providers and that almost clashes with expectation that women need to be independent and strong.

I think to achieve greater equality we have to do more than just teach boys about respect for women but also deal with mens roles in society. They are still really ridged. Men and women alike are still not comfortable with men being more sensitive and emotional. We have to teach men that its okay to not be strong all the time, that its okay to be vulnerable. I know what i'm saying will come up against a lot of scrutiny and that's because we still see that in men as weak and maybe even pathetic.

This is the one thing I don't understand. Women should take pride in their femininity, but men and boys shouldn't be masculine? I'm sorry but to me that's just a load of shíte.

The fact is, men are masculine and shouldn't be made to feel shame for being masculine. You're talking about changing gender roles, as if this is an inevitability and the "correct" path to take, when it simply is not. Men are supposed to be masculine, just as women are supposed to be feminine. There's exceptions and not everyone has to be, but that is the general outline. If you're not masculine as a male, you are unlikely to succeed in any sort of high paying career.

Masculinity isn't some "toxic" idea that needs to be gotten rid of or replaced or changed. It is integral to male identity for the vast, vast, vast majority of people.

We shouldn't teach boys it's okay to not be masculine, we should teach them to take pride in their masculinity and to put it into productive fields - play sports, build shít, become businessmen or athletes or soldiers, become CEOs or MMA fighters. Find an outlet of for your masculinity, instead of people telling you that it's something that inevitably has to change since "dude its the current year".