'Young men in Ireland need feminism'

Didas

jonon9 wrote: »

Have you seen the state of young lads nowadays they look more and more like women everyday, And no we don't need more feminist **** what we need is less of it.

Ah they don't though...

DredFX

Grayson wrote: »

See, getting 50% representation isn't a bad thing either. Women are just over 50% of the population but there has never been 50% representation in parliament. It's something we should aim for.

I agree with your other sentiments but something like this I would be wary of. Seeking parity for the sake of gender equality in institutions like parliament is a dangerous move. We should be aiming for merit and democracy in such places, instead of trying to facilitate a 50/50 turnout because it would seem nice.

Women vote for the men in office, too.

LLMMLL

DredFX wrote: »

Except that Martin Luther encouraged peaceful activism and nonviolence in addition to black rights, hoping to attain equality through friendship and discourse.
This was a philosophy he'd learned from, *gasp*, Gandhi, who also vied for women's rights and religious freedom, in and out of India.

There was no just-us sentiment with Luther or Gandhi, even if their achievements suggested otherwise. Those at the opposite end of spectrum mattered in bringing them closer.

Here, Blindboy insists that we engage with feminism. Hearing, 'it's not realistic for us to worry about male's problems as well', is not assisting his message.

they weren't campaigning on these issues. If you ask most feminists should something be done about make suicide they will completely agree. But that's not what you want. You want them to have an equal campaign. You want any feminist who posts on a female issue to also post on a male issue. MLK and gandhi did not campaign on women's rights , even if gandhinrecognised the important role women had to play in his movement.

Grayson

AnGaelach wrote: »

Has it gotten you your hole yet?

I had this idea that women are people too and ran with it. It seemed crazy at first but women seem to really like it. Who would have thought?

beertons

Take off the poxy mask/bag if you've something important to say and want to be taken seriously. Can't stand those idiots.

AnGaelach

Grayson wrote: »

I had this idea that women are people too and ran with it. It seemed crazy at first but women seem to really like it. Who would have thought?

And do they lose interest in you before or after you tell them you're a male feminist?

Icemancometh

Grayson wrote: »

I had this idea that women are people too and ran with it. It seemed crazy at first but women seem to really like it. Who would have thought?

I gather you're being somewhat facetious but this seems to reflect the frame of mind (espoused by some celebrities) that one is either a feminist or a misogynist.

Widdershins

AnGaelach wrote: »

This is the one thing I don't understand. Women should take pride in their femininity, but men and boys shouldn't be masculine? I'm sorry but to me that's just a load of shíte.

The fact is, men are masculine and shouldn't be made to feel shame for being masculine. You're talking about changing gender roles, as if this is an inevitability and the "correct" path to take, when it simply is not. Men are supposed to be masculine, just as women are supposed to be feminine. There's exceptions and not everyone has to be, but that is the general outline. If you're not masculine as a male, you are unlikely to succeed in any sort of high paying career.

Masculinity isn't some "toxic" idea that needs to be gotten rid of or replaced or changed. It is integral to male identity for the vast, vast, vast majority of people.

We shouldn't teach boys it's okay to not be masculine, we should teach them to take pride in their masculinity and to put it into productive fields - play sports, build shít, become businessmen or athletes or soldiers, become CEOs or MMA fighters. Find an outlet of for your masculinity, instead of people telling you that it's something that inevitably has to change since "dude its the current year".

Brilliant post.
Men have arguably got a better system of handling problems and they compartmentalise their feelings very effectively, in general. A lot of women recognise this, it's only the oddballs among the feminists who don't realise it and want men to be more emotionally demonstrative.

Overall traditional men are absolutely fine. It's easier to be an untraditional man now, too. It's all good as long as we don't keep hammering away at traditional men and trying to change them
If it's not broke, don't fix it.

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

This is the one thing I don't understand. Women should take pride in their femininity, but men and boys shouldn't be masculine? I'm sorry but to me that's just a load of shíte.

The fact is, men are masculine and shouldn't be made to feel shame for being masculine. You're talking about changing gender roles, as if this is an inevitability and the "correct" path to take, when it simply is not. Men are supposed to be masculine, just as women are supposed to be feminine. There's exceptions and not everyone has to be, but that is the general outline. If you're not masculine as a male, you are unlikely to succeed in any sort of high paying career.

Masculinity isn't some "toxic" idea that needs to be gotten rid of or replaced or changed. It is integral to male identity for the vast, vast, vast majority of people.

We shouldn't teach boys it's okay to not be masculine, we should teach them to take pride in their masculinity and to put it into productive fields - play sports, build shít, become businessmen or athletes or soldiers, become CEOs or MMA fighters. Find an outlet of for your masculinity, instead of people telling you that it's something that inevitably has to change since "dude its the current year".

But the issue with what you're espousing is that there are negative aspects to the traditional definition of 'masculine' such as the idea that to show emotion is a bad thing, and this idea is damaging to young men. The idea that to be depressed or sad is 'weak' is one of the things that drives young men in this country deeper into depression and feeds our shocking suicide rates.

What we need to do is to teach everyone, male and female, that to express themselves is ok. If a man wants to be a soldier or a rugby player then that's grand, but if he wants to be a florist or learn to sew then that's grand too, and it doesn't make him less of a man, just as being a soldier doesn't make someone more of a man.

And that's where feminism comes into it. As feminism has opened the field for women in STEM careers, or even just the ability to HAVE a career, so the field is opened for men who want non-traditional roles.

Teaching boys that they don't have to conform to roles that they have no interest in, like sports or welding, and teaching them that it's ok to have feelings and to express those is not a bad thing.

I'm always reminded of the ancient Greeks when discussing this; for them a man expressing emotion was one of the most manly things you could do: to feel so strongly about something that you didn't care who knew about it.

Grayson

DredFX wrote: »

I agree with your other sentiments but something like this I would be wary of. Seeking parity for the sake of gender equality in institutions like parliament is a dangerous move. We should be aiming for merit and democracy in such places, instead of trying to facilitate a 50/50 turnout because it would seem nice.

Women vote for the men in office, too.

What most progressive political parties do is try to get 50% of all the people trying to get on the parties ticket to be women. They also try to get more women involved at a local level. If it turns out that in the local cumann that 95% of the parties members are male then there's very few women to choose from so they try to get more women to join at a local level.

Once they have more women at that level then when the local party is deciding who to run they try to get 50% of the options to be women. These women will still have to campaign and will still have to get the local cumann to vote for them to get on the parties ticket at the next election.

Eventually over a period of time more women will be involved and more qualified female candidates will be available and more of them will end up on the ticket.

mzungu

Mr Joe wrote: »

If that was a point he made it's not a bad one, but he is never going to get through to young men then preaching about feminism. Any that would be watching would be changing the channel as soon as that tired stuff starts being churned out. You can't start preaching feminism while RTE are showing feminist documentaries claiming all men are rapists and there is a rape culture in Ireland.

I blame the media here. For the purposes of sensationalism they run with stuff from the fourth wave that is deliberate in its attempts to get a rise out of people. When this stuff is propagated in the mainstream, people believe that every single person who identifies as feminist subscribes wholesale to the fourth wave mantra. So, I guess it is no surprise, when the term feminism is used (by the chap from the Rubberbandits) people then conflate it with crapola like mansplaining, manterrupting, rape culture, straight white male privilege etc. Whereas in this case, all he was saying is, nobody expects lads to be like some kind of Gerard Butler-esque spartan warrior in 300. Just going about your business and living your life and being happy with it is about all anybody who matters will expect of you.

Personally, I do not subscribe wholesale to the gender roles behind male suicide theory. It might be a factor in some cases, but I would imagine suicides are the result of a myriad of complex issues. But, the chap is entitled to his opinion and it is good to see comedians who youngsters would identify with, wading into the conversation on the national broadcaster.

Mr Joe wrote:

Feminism is poison these days and most young men despise it, because it despises them.

As above, the fourth wave ideology is hostile to both men and women (who do not share their worldview), but this is still a minority of fools. I have no time for the fourth wave or their opposite numbers in the manosphere. However, the core tents of feminism that most normal people subscribe to are not hostile to men, and neither is it poison.

Dr Jakub

GingerLily wrote: »

Can this stuff not be kept to the conspiracy theories forum?

Found the beta male.

Mr Joe wrote: »

I've never met a male feminist that wasn't some sort of creep or pervert.

Agreed. There's always something a bit 'off' about the them.

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

But the issue with what you're espousing is that there are negative aspects to the traditional definition of 'masculine' such as the idea that to show emotion is a bad thing, and this idea is damaging to young men. The idea that to be depressed or sad is 'weak' is one of the things that drives young men in this country deeper into depression and feeds our shocking suicide rates.

What we need to do is to teach everyone, male and female, that to express themselves is ok. If a man wants to be a soldier or a rugby player then that's grand, but if he wants to be a florist or learn to sew then that's grand too, and it doesn't make him less of a man, just as being a soldier doesn't make someone more of a man.

And that's where feminism comes into it. As feminism has opened the field for women in STEM careers, or even just the ability to HAVE a career, so the field is opened for men who want non-traditional roles.

Teaching boys that they don't have to conform to roles that they have no interest in, like sports or welding, and teaching them that it's ok to have feelings and to express those is not a bad thing.

I'm always reminded of the ancient Greeks when discussing this; for them a man expressing emotion was one of the most manly things you could do: to feel so strongly about something that you didn't care who knew about it.

No, the idea I'm espousing is to encourage men to take what they find masculine about themselves and run with that instead of being demonised for it. Suicide isn't just about not showing your emotions, suicide is a mental health thing and not something you can just plaster over with "oh well if you were more feminine that wouldn't happen". You're equating correlation with causality and that's a load of rubbish. - Everything has drawbacks, you're saying my idea hurts people. I'd argue that you trying to feminise men hurts them more since they're being shamed for something they enjoy doing. How many feminists call UFC barbaric and want it banned? (I'd like to see a study with regards to how testosterone and masculine hobbies/careers relates to suicide). What happens when you've a bunch of feminine soldiers and they're expected to go to war? Should they be given time to pamper themselves beforehand?

Masculinity/Feminism has nothing to do with suicide prevention. Like, at all. It's a mental health issues not a gender equality issue.

I've absolutely no interest in welding, does that mean I don't consider myself masculine? Nope, I'd rather read a law book than a manual. I have an interest in war, does that mean I'm going to consider men who don't want to be soldiers less masculine than me? Again, nope.

There's not one standard to hold masculinity too, but the thing I despise is how masculinity is sneered at by various different groups of pseudo-intellectuals as some relic of the past that's stubbornly clinging around.

Instead of using "masculinity bad:mad:" as a stick to beat people into conforming with your views, why not just encourage their masculinity and give them something to be more productive with?

Richard Hillman

Widdershins wrote: »

Brilliant post.
Men have arguably got a better system of handling problems and they compartmentalise their feelings very effectively, in general. A lot of women recognise this, it's only the oddballs among the feminists who don't realise it and want men to be more emotionally demonstrative.

Overall traditional men are absolutely fine. It's easier to be an untraditional man now, too. It's all good as long as we don't keep hammering away at traditional men and trying to change them
If it's not broke, don't fix it.

A very apt post considering the day that it in it Re: The oddballs. Today is International Men's Day. Go on twitter and see who are posting about it. It's mostly women talking about male suicide, trans gender issues, self loathing males, and everything else trying to bash men.

Instead of celebrating the Man, they are trying to keep us in our place

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

Right.. But this thread is about feminism.

I was responding to your lazy attitude towards equality. But sure go bash feminism all you want, it's a strange hobbie for a lot of people here.

Dr Jakub

GingerLily wrote: »

I was responding to your lazy attitude towards equality. But sure go bash feminism all you want, it's a strange hobbie for a lot of people here.

Nothing strange about bashing the ideology that condemns you as a privileged, cultural rapist just because you happen to be a white man.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Widdershins wrote: »

Brilliant post.
Men have arguably got a better system of handling problems and they compartmentalise their feelings very effectively, in general. A lot of women recognise this, it's only the oddballs among the feminists who don't realise it and want men to be more emotionally demonstrative.

Overall traditional men are absolutely fine. It's easier to be an untraditional man now, too. It's all good as long as we don't keep hammering away at traditional men and trying to change them
If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Arguably. I guess one of the arguments against it would be tens of thousands of men dead every year, either at their own hand or the hand of some other angry man.

And ever see a man two days after a breakup? He's grand, feelings all nicely comparmentalised while his ex cries with her friends. Ever see him two months after a break up though?

I don't want to change 'traditional men', I do want to change the idea that not fitting that mold makes you less masculine or less of a man though. And the idea that women are flighty shrill flibbertigibbets ruled by malice and all sorts of weird emotion, with a wee vendetta against men thrown in for flavour.

I'm wearing trousers right now. I earned money this week. I've had sex with women. I'm enjoying a cigarette. I have no children and not a notion of having any in the future. I have two university degrees. All of these things at various points and in various contexts would have caused people to think I'm less of a 'proper' woman, they don't really anymore outside of some pretty odd circles. And yet other women continue to wear dresses and raise babies and like the colour pink and whatever and it's all fine. Thanks feminism! If a similar thing can be achieved for men then I'm all for it.

GingerLily

Dr Jakub wrote: »

Nothing strange about bashing the ideology that condemns you as a privileged, cultural rapist just because you happen to be a white man.

WHATS RACE GOT TO DO WITH IT???

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

No, the idea I'm espousing is to encourage men to take what they find masculine about themselves and run with that instead of being demonised for it. Suicide isn't just about not showing your emotions, suicide is a mental health thing and not something you can just plaster over with "oh well if you were more feminine that wouldn't happen". You're equating correlation with causality and that's a load of rubbish. - Everything has drawbacks, you're saying my idea hurts people. I'd argue that you trying to feminise men hurts them more. I'd like to see a study with regards to how testosterone and masculine hobbies/careers relates to suicide.

I've absolutely no interest in welding, does that mean I don't consider myself masculine? Nope, I'd rather read a law book than a manual. I have an interest in war, does that mean I'm going to consider men who don't want to be soldiers less masculine than me? Again, nope.

There's not one standard to hold masculinity too, but the thing I despise is how masculinity is sneered at by various different groups of pseudo-intellectuals as some relic of the past that's stubbornly clinging around.

Instead of using "masculinity bad:mad:" as a stick to beat people into conforming with your views, why not just encourage their masculinity and give them something to be more productive with?

Maybe it's just getting lost through the medium we're communicating through, but I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean.

You say that you want to "encourage men to take what is masculine about themselves and run with it" and that's fair enough and understandable, Masculinity is not mad, or bad. But what about men who don't find anything about themselves that you're describing as 'masculine'.

I'm a woman. I'm not very feminine. I don't wear makeup when I don't have to; I don't feel 'feminine' a lot of the time. If someone told me that 'women should find what's feminine in themselves and run with it' I'd be left thinking 'but what about me? I'm not feminine.' And I'd imagine that there are men who feel the same about masculinity.

AnGaelach

GingerLily wrote: »

WHATS RACE GOT TO DO WITH IT???

Have ye not seen those absolute gremlins of men and women who try to pass racism and sexism off as not really being racist or sexist because their target is a white male? I'm sure you've heard a few of the quacks talking like that. Mostly confined to America thankfully, but we've a fair few gobshítes trying to mimic them here.

Didas

Dr Jakub wrote: »

Nothing strange about bashing the ideology that condemns you as a privileged, cultural rapist just because you happen to be a white man.

Just a few posts back you supported a poster who said that men who hold feminist views are always creeps and perverts. Now your condemning other people for making ludicrous, ignorant, baseless assumptions.

You realise that you are the mirror image of the extreme internet feminists you despise so much?

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

Maybe it's just getting lost through the medium we're communicating through, but I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean.

You say that you want to "encourage men to take what is masculine about themselves and run with it" and that's fair enough and understandable, Masculinity is not mad, or bad. But what about men who don't find anything about themselves that you're describing as 'masculine'.

I'm a woman. I'm not very feminine. I don't wear makeup when I don't have to; I don't feel 'feminine' a lot of the time. If someone told me that 'women should find what's feminine in themselves and run with it' I'd be left thinking 'but what about me? I'm not feminine.' And I'd imagine that there are men who feel the same about masculinity.

Those men are in the tiny, tiny minority of men. Most men are masculine, that's just a state of facts. Masculinity is always taking a battering in the media and by certain quango feminists, when it shouldn't. People always talk about changing gender roles and that men should be more open to being feminine. But men shouldn't be more feminine, that's the antithesis to their very nature. Men are supposed to be masculine, and men should be encouraged to be masculine in a productive manner.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

AnGaelach wrote: »

Those men are in the tiny, tiny minority of men. Most men are masculine, that's just a state of facts. Masculinity is always taking a battering in the media and by certain quango feminists, when it shouldn't. People always talk about changing gender roles and that men should be more open to being feminine. But men shouldn't be more feminine, that's the antithesis to their very nature. Men are supposed to be masculine, and men should be encouraged to be masculine in a productive manner.

But what is masculine? How do you define it? And how do you separate inherent universal masculinity from a culturally constructed masculinity?

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

Those men are in the tiny, tiny minority of men. Most men are masculine, that's just a state of facts. Masculinity is always taking a battering in the media and by certain quango feminists, when it shouldn't. People always talk about changing gender roles and that men should be more open to being feminine. But men shouldn't be more feminine, that's the antithesis to their very nature. Men are supposed to be masculine, and men should be encouraged to be masculine in a productive manner.

Why shouldn't the be if they want to be?

Dr Jakub

GingerLily wrote: »

WHATS RACE GOT TO DO WITH IT???

Feminists are only comfortable going after white men. Will we talk about the (real) rape culture that was imported to the West? Nah that would be racist, lets go after this white guy who wore a shirt we don't like.

tonygun wrote: »

Just a few posts back you supported a poster who said that men who hold feminist views are always creeps and perverts. Now your condemning other people for making ludicrous, ignorant, baseless assumptions.

You realise that you are the mirror image of the extreme internet feminists you despise so much?

Thanks Tony. Guess I'm a feminist now.

AnGaelach

Lewis Purple Bather wrote: »

But what is masculine? How do you define it? And how do you separate inherent universal masculinity from a culturally constructed masculinity?

It's kinda like the idea of measuring law. The simple answer is, for me, that masculinity is, because masculinity is. It's inherent in people.

Telling people you're feeling suicidal or that you're depressed, isn't a masculine or a feminine issue. It's not a gender issue. It's a mental health issue. So the solution then is not a gender solution, it's a mental health solution.

Skommando

DredFX wrote: »

Blindboy from the Rubberbandits (this isn't a joke, I promise) appeared on the Late Late yesterday, and one topic he broached was the need for feminism in young Irish men.

The most prominent issue he notices when speaking to men in Limerick is their fear of being unable to offer anything to women, or to provide for them, which Blindboy feels is a patriarchal value that will bite men in the behind if they don't consider feminism.

Snippet from the interview here, if you haven't seen it.

So, fellas, have you felt these kinds of pressures before, and do you think opening your mind to feminism would help ease your fears?

Yep, that's what it's come to, prime time on Irish television, a guy wearing a plastic bag as a mask, given a platform to advise young people on what they should do, and the media establishment expecting us to take them and the his message seriously . . . .this is one twisted country.

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

Why shouldn't the be if they want to be?

You think all men should be effeminate? Because that's what I'm talking about here in broad strokes, we're talking about the group of people, not the tiny minority of people who feel strongly otherwise.

Grayson

Icemancometh wrote: »

I gather you're being somewhat facetious but this seems to reflect the frame of mind (espoused by some celebrities) that one is either a feminist or a misogynist.

You are either one or the other. You don't need to walk around carrying a Gloria Steinem book to be a feminist. Just think that women deserve the same chances and opportunities that men have, that a woman should not be at a disadvantage because of their gender, that there are issues which affect women disproportionately and something should be done about it. If you do that then you're a feminist. That's pretty much the core of it.
There's loads of feminists who will talk about all kinds of stuff and you'll find disagreement amongst feminists. Whether you agree with it or not is up to you. And yes a lot of those feminist are incredibly fcuking irritating. It's because a lot of people are incredibly fcuking irritating. And some of them are stupid too. Because some people are stupid too. And they give feminism a bad name.

If you disagree with a particular point that some irritating feminist made you're not a misogynist but if you don't think women deserve the same opportunities etc... then yes, you're a misogynist.

Now you will find that irritating feminist saying that if you don't agree with their particular narrow view that you're a misogynist. That's wrong but it's also wrong to dismiss feminism because of that particular narrow minded feminist or to think all feminists are just like the irritating one.

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

You think all men should be effeminate?

What do you mean by effeminate?