'Young men in Ireland need feminism'

Didas

Skommando wrote: »

Yep, that's what it's come to, prime time on Irish television, a guy wearing a plastic bag as a mask, advising young people what they should do, and expecting them to take him seriously . . . .this is one twisted country.

These lads do a better job at conveying the views, worries, and issues affecting the younger generation, to both the younger generation and the Irish people at large, far better than any aul lad in a suit ever does.

WoolyJumper

AnGaelach wrote: »

This is the one thing I don't understand. Women should take pride in their femininity, but men and boys shouldn't be masculine? I'm sorry but to me that's just a load of shíte.

The fact is, men are masculine and shouldn't be made to feel shame for being masculine. You're talking about changing gender roles, as if this is an inevitability and the "correct" path to take, when it simply is not. Men are supposed to be masculine, just as women are supposed to be feminine. There's exceptions and not everyone has to be, but that is the general outline. If you're not masculine as a male, you are unlikely to succeed in any sort of high paying career.

Masculinity isn't some "toxic" idea that needs to be gotten rid of or replaced or changed. It is integral to male identity for the vast, vast, vast majority of people.

We shouldn't teach boys it's okay to not be masculine, we should teach them to take pride in their masculinity and to put it into productive fields - play sports, build shít, become businessmen or athletes or soldiers, become CEOs or MMA fighters. Find an outlet of for your masculinity, instead of people telling you that it's something that inevitably has to change since "dude its the current year".

I didn't mention words like Masculine or Feminine, I didn't say it was toxic for men to act strong, be successful, be competitive.

What is toxic is the exceptions built around men. Being emotional and vulnerable aren't strictly feminine traits. If they were then only women would feel emotional and vulnerable. But its not true. Men feel that too. It is just seen by many as weak in men. Sometimes laughed at, scorned at. That is toxic for men.

I don't know what your definition of masculinity is? Is it being competitive, independent, strong? Because I know both men and women like that (There are a lot of camogie players in my family). And there is nothing wrong with. I don't think any of those are strictly masculine traits.

The problem is not every man is like that, and certainly most men don't feel like that all the time. But that is what is expected of men. I don't see the harm in teaching boys that it is okay to not be competitive, strong, independent, unemotional all the time. I'm not saying teach them being these things is bad but rather no one feels like that all the time. And I'm sorry but none of those traits are exclusive to men either, plenty of women are like that too.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

AnGaelach wrote: »

It's kinda like the idea of measuring law. The simple answer is, for me, that masculinity is, because masculinity is. It's inherent in people.

Telling people you're feeling suicidal or that you're depressed, isn't a masculine or a feminine issue. It's not a gender issue. It's a mental health issue. So the solution then is not a gender solution, it's a mental health solution.

How can you ignore gender when the rates are so different though? By virtue of being born male in Ireland you are something like 6-8 times more likely to die by suicide. That's a men's rights issue to me, the state, society and the mental health services are failing young men appallingly. Men's mental health issues feed into why so many homeless people, addicts and prisoners are men.

And 'it is because it is' isn't a very compelling argument, particularly when you're arguing that men are being coerced into becoming less masculine, when those men would argue it's just a different type of masculinity. That they're just expressing their inherent masculinity without some of the baggage of culturally imposed masculinity that might have caused them to behave differently. There's a huge difference between 'masculine' and 'macho'.

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

What do you mean by effeminate?

Well we're talking about masculinity, I'm arguing men should be masculine, and you're taking issue with that... There's really only one meaning for effeminate in this context.

Skommando

tonygun wrote: »

These lads do a better job at conveying the views, worries, and issues affecting the younger generation, to both the younger generation and Irish people at large, far better than any aul lad in a suit ever does.

That says a lot a about the continuing breakdown of Irish society and the success of the desired psychological conditioning and brainwashing that a guy wearing a plastic bag as a mask on prime time television and his message should be trusted, and a more experienced and qualified person willing to convey their message without hiding behind mask should not be.

Didas

AnGaelach wrote: »

Well we're talking about masculinity, I'm arguing men should be masculine, and you're taking issue with that... There's really only one meaning for effeminate in this context.

This is the thing, you are arguing what men should be. Why should men not just be whatever they want to be? Why is your input on what a whole section of the population should be, relevant in any way at all?

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

Well we're talking about masculinity, I'm arguing men should be masculine, and you're taking issue with that... There's really only one meaning for effeminate in this context.

So what? Effeminate means 'not masculine'? Well, yeah, that's what the word means. What I want to know is what traits would you describe as being effeminate?

I'm not taking issue with masculinity, I'm just trying to nail down what you mean by 'masculine'.

The only thing I'm taking issue with is the idea that either gender 'should' be anything.

Dr Jakub

tonygun wrote: »

This is the thing, you are arguing what men should be. Why should men not just be whatever they want to be? Why is your input on what a whole section of the population should be, relevant in any way at all?

Men can act effeminate if they want. They just have to accept they'll never get a girlfriend.

AnGaelach

Lewis Purple Bather wrote: »

How can you ignore gender when the rates are so different though? By virtue of being born male in Ireland you are something like 6-8 times more likely to die by suicide. That's a men's rights issue to me, the state, society and the mental health services are failing young men appallingly. Men's mental health issues feed into why so many homeless people, addicts and prisoners are men.

Correlation does not equate causality, anyone will tell you this. That is why I'm labelling it as a mental health issue, and not a gender issue. Me being a man does not make me more likely to consider suicide than, say, my sisters would.

Lewis Purple Bather wrote: »

And 'it is because it is' isn't a very compelling argument, particularly when you're arguing that men are being coerced into becoming less masculine, when those men would argue it's just a different type of masculinity. That they're just expressing their inherent masculinity without some of the baggage of culturally imposed masculinity that might have caused them to behave differently. There's a huge difference between 'masculine' and 'macho'.

You can't quantify something inherent and intangible. We are masculine, because men are masculine. Whether that's left over from a couple thousand years ago when men were still beating each other to death for resources, or whether it's something society promotes doesn't have any real weight as an argument for me. The origins have little to do with the effect of masculinity itself, from either a personal standpoint or a social standpoint.

A masculine society thrives and survives, an effeminate one doesn't.

AnGaelach

tonygun wrote: »

This is the thing, you are arguing what men should be. Why should men not just be whatever they want to be? Why is your input on what a whole section of the population should be, relevant in any way at all?

Why is some muppet wearing a plastic bag on his head at all relevant to the conversation? Because we both live in the society and we're both voters.

mzungu

AnGaelach wrote: »

You think all men should be effeminate? Because that's what I'm talking about here in broad strokes, we're talking about the group of people, not the tiny minority of people who feel strongly otherwise.

If some men wish to act effeminate, then so be it. Even if it is only a tiny minority, the point is, the option to be ones true self should always be there.

kylith

Skommando wrote: »

That says a lot a about the continuing breakdown of Irish society and the success of the desired psychological conditioning and brainwashing that a guy wearing a plastic bag as a mask on prime time television and his message should be trusted, and a more experienced and qualified person willing to convey their message without hiding behind mask should not be.

I don't see that he's hiding behind the mask. He's addressed it before and stated that it's because he wants to be able to go about his daily life without having to deal with being in the public eye, which I think is fair enough.

The Moldy Gowl

beertons wrote: »

Take off the poxy mask/bag if you've something important to say and want to be taken seriously. Can't stand those idiots.

Why? Why does the bag negate the opinion?

Standman

He may have a point, but feminism has become such an incoherent term, it seems pointless to even bring it up without defining what you mean by it. Self-described feminists can't even agree on what it means half the time, from what I've seen.

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

So what? Effeminate means 'not masculine'? Well, yeah, that's what the word means. What I want to know is what traits would you describe as being effeminate?

I'm not taking issue with masculinity, I'm just trying to nail down what you mean by 'masculine'.

The only thing I'm taking issue with is the idea that either gender 'should' be anything.

Physically active, confident in yourself as a man, ambitious and rational (you can have feelings, but you shouldn't let them cloud your judgement). The fine details are of no consequence to me, I don't care if someone prefers football to GAA, or they find welding more fun than doing deadlifts.

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

You can't quantify something inherent and intangible. We are masculine, because men are masculine.

So therefore anything that a man does is masculine. Glad we got that sorted.

AnGaelach

mzungu wrote: »

If some men wish to act effeminate, then so be it. Even if it is only a tiny minority, the point is, the option to be ones true self should always be there.

And at no point am I disputing that. What I am disputing however, is the calls for some people to tell kids they should be less masculine, what I am disputing is people who (while maybe not in this thread, there are plenty around) think that masculinity is a relic of a bygone age, when it simply isn't. Masculinity should be applauded, not scorned.

Didas

Skommando wrote: »

That says a lot a about the continuing breakdown of Irish society and the success of the desired psychological conditioning and brainwashing that a guy wearing a plastic bag as a mask on prime time television and his message should be trusted, and a more experienced and qualified person willing to convey their message without hiding behind mask should not be.

No, it says a lot about how disconnected and out of touch with the reality of the lives of the younger generation that the traditional 'trusted' politicians and journalists are, that it takes a comedian in a shopping bag to bring these issues to light.

DredFX

kylith wrote: »

I don't see that he's hiding behind the mask. He's addressed it before and stated that it's because he wants to be able to go about his daily life without having to deal with being in the public eye, which I think is fair enough.

Sia's the exact same, and she's a huge proponent of veganism.

Never heard anyone giving her crap for wearing an oversized wig.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

AnGaelach wrote: »

Correlation does not equate causality, anyone will tell you this. That is why I'm labelling it as a mental health issue, and not a gender issue. Me being a man does not make me more likely to consider suicide than, say, my sisters would.

Statistically speaking yes it does, and you would be far more likely to succeed in an attempt.

I mean, I'm after holding a pencil in my hand, letting go of it and ten times in a row it fell to the ground. Probably just a coincidence and no causal relationship, right? In almost EVERY country in the world men kill themselves at rates several times higher than women. That can't be brushed off as coincidence, not if you give a **** about men.

You can't quantify something inherent and intangible. We are masculine, because men are masculine. Whether that's left over from a couple thousand years ago when men were still beating each other to death for resources, or whether it's something society promotes doesn't have any real weight as an argument for me. The origins have little to do with the effect of masculinity itself, from either a personal standpoint or a social standpoint.

A masculine society thrives and survives, an effeminate one doesn't.

But you are at some level quantifying it by saying that men who behave differently than yourself are less masculine. You're tying it to traits and behaviour and attitudes and measurable things, and also saying it's intangible. You can't have both.

Masculine societies like what? The Caliphate? Feminine societies like what, Scandinavia?

Your argument is more holes than substance tbh, you're just twisting and turning to maintain a worldview, and I'm pretty sure you're too deeply ingrained in it to even realise that.

Skommando

kylith wrote: »

I don't see that he's hiding behind the mask. He's addressed it before and stated that it's because he wants to be able to go about his daily life without having to deal with being in the public eye, which I think is fair enough.

So you actually want to follow a gimp in a masks advice, who won't show is face in public ?

I''m curious, how did you end being conditioned to accept this is a good idea?

Widdershins

Lewis Purple Bather wrote: »

Arguably. I guess one of the arguments against it would be tens of thousands of men dead every year, either at their own hand or the hand of some other angry man.

And ever see a man two days after a breakup? He's grand, feelings all nicely comparmentalised while his ex cries with her friends. Ever see him two months after a break up though?

I don't want to change 'traditional men', I do want to change the idea that not fitting that mold makes you less masculine or less of a man though. And the idea that women are flighty shrill flibbertigibbets ruled by malice and all sorts of weird emotion, with a wee vendetta against men thrown in for flavour.

I'm wearing trousers right now. I earned money this week. I've had sex with women. I'm enjoying a cigarette. I have no children and not a notion of having any in the future. I have two university degrees. All of these things at various points and in various contexts would have caused people to think I'm less of a 'proper' woman, they don't really anymore outside of some pretty odd circles. And yet other women continue to wear dresses and raise babies and like the colour pink and whatever and it's all fine. Thanks feminism! If a similar thing can be achieved for men then I'm all for it.

Again look at the reasons for suicide. With depression many people of both sexes dont feel able to talk about it because they think there is no point, so it's not great to assume it's men being held back. Thankfully counselling is widely available now (not widely enough just like all health services, and that goes for both sexes-but it's available and well publicised and talked about). There was room for improvement ten years ago but things have come on a lot now.

I've already said that it is fne not to fit that mold nowadays. As it should be.

I'm lost as to your bisexuality and smoking..I am the same myself but I've no idea where it fits in here? Female roles..?

AnGaelach

kylith wrote: »

So therefore anything that a man does is masculine. Glad we got that sorted.

Everything a woman does can be considered feminine because it's done by a woman? No. Why do you try to condense things into soundbite arguments?

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

Physically active, confident in yourself as a man, ambitious and rational (you can have feelings, but you shouldn't let them cloud your judgement). The fine details are of no consequence to me, I don't care if someone prefers football to GAA, or they find welding more fun than doing deadlifts.

So men who have no real interest in being 'physically active' and doesn't want to partake in sport isn't 'masculine' in your opinion?

I disagree with you that this is a 'tiny minority', instead I would argue that you just don't know a broad spectrum of men. Most of the men I know don't engage in sport.

AnGaelach

The Moldy Gowl wrote: »

Why? Why does the bag negate the opinion?

"Gowl"

Nice try, blindboy, but I know it's you.

mzungu

Standman wrote: »

He may have a point, but feminism has become such an incoherent term, it seems pointless to even bring it up without defining what you mean by it. Self-described feminists can't even agree on what it means half the time, from what I've seen.

I agree, there was probably no reason for him to refer to feminism, but he did. Regardless, his message does have merit and can basically be boiled down to that nobody expects men to live up to any stereotypes of what it means to be a "real man".

DredFX

AnGaelach wrote: »

"Gowl"

Nice try, blindboy, but I know it's you.

Only in Limerick citaaay.

The_Valeyard

DredFX wrote: »

Only in Limerick citaaay.

Read that in the voice of Alicia Keys singing 'New York'

B.A._Baracus

What is feminism in the western modern world anyways?
It's no longer the 50s where a woman is expected to be in the kitchen. Sheesh my last boss was a woman. Did I or anyone else working there care? Not in the slightest.

Hate all this feminism crap over here. Why aren't people trying to bring rights to women in the middle east?

kylith

AnGaelach wrote: »

Everything a woman does can be considered feminine because it's done by a woman? No. Why do you try to condense things into soundbite arguments?

Well, you did say

We are masculine, because men are masculine

so by your own logic women are feminine because women are feminine.

I don't want to condense things to soundbites, I want you to clearly state what you believe is 'masculine' and what traits you believe are 'effeminate', and so far the best you can do is "We are masculine, because men are masculine".