Anti-M28 thread

Carawaystick

Nuf wrote: »

I'll have to disagree with this point though. The only reason a motorway is being proposed is because of the EU's TEN-T - Connecting Europe initiative where Cork port is said to lie on the North Sea-Mediterranean Core Network Corridor, the Irish section connecting Belfast – Dublin – Cork at high speeds. Absolutely ludicrous isn't it? This is the reason for closing ramps and building new access roads, to comply with a motorway designation.

Except the road to the port won't be motorway from Shanbally on, so the whole TenT has to be motorway thing is bunkum... Same as its national route/non motorway on the N40, N7 to Red Cow, N1 to the border, A1 is not motorway etc.

AugustusMinimus

It's gonna be dual carriageway as traffic levels demand it and it will be motorway in order to protect the road from people looking for direct access into it.

marno21

Carawaystick wrote: »

Except the road to the port won't be motorway from Shanbally on, so the whole TenT has to be motorway thing is bunkum... Same as its national route/non motorway on the N40, N7 to Red Cow, N1 to the border, A1 is not motorway etc.

It will be 11km of Motorway and 1km of SC.

N7 to Rew Cow is planned to be reconfigured to motorway in the near future

Baldilocks

gerogerigegege
The issues that I think are being 'overplayed' by the 'steering group'
1) Air Pollution - The steering group are using images of a blackened lung on some of their posters. The upgraded road will permit traffic to flow more freely - a vehicle at motion is more efficient than a stationary one with the its' engine running, thus the pollution aspect is actually reduced, not increased.
Furthermore, there are roads in this country with with significantly higher AADT's being carried on 2 carriageways. This information is freely available on the TII website.
2) Noise pollution - noise barriers can be put in. I accept that this has not been done in the past but it is now a requirement. Large sections of the M50, M7 and M8 in the midlands have these barriers and they are not just situated where there are significant housing developments.
3) Traffic - the revised road with it's increased capacity will be better able to handle more traffic, and thus people who are currently passing Douglas/Rochestown in order to avoid the current route which can be heavily backlogged (I am such a person). Thus you'll be removing traffic that has no real business passing through a residential area, resulting in further reductions in ambient noise/pollution and freeing up the local roads for local people.
Many towns that have been bypassed by motorways which were vigourously opposed by local small businesses, have been completely revived by being bypassed, examples include Kildare, Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Gort.

I look forward to your reply - I'd appreciate if you could discuss the issues in a logical fashion, as shown above.

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

N7 to Rew Cow is planned to be reconfigured to motorway in the near future

This is the same road that the nra entered into a ppp agreement which provided cycle lanes to and from the Newlands cross a year ago or so?

marno21

The N7 is no place whatsoever for cycle lanes. It's a joke that the busiest by far section of the N7 has petrol stations, tiny L roads and a garden centre fronting onto it, let alone having cycle lanes on it.

This isn't cyclist bashing, but if there is demand for a cycle route from Naas to Dublin it should be seperate to a 100km/h 6 lane dual carraigeway with cyclists having to cross on-ramps etc.

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

The N7 is no place whatsoever for cycle lanes. It's a joke that the busiest by far section of the N7 has petrol stations, tiny L roads and a garden centre fronting onto it, let alone having cycle lanes on it.

This isn't cyclist bashing, but if there is demand for a cycle route from Naas to Dublin it should be seperate to a 100km/h 6 lane dual carraigeway with cyclists having to cross on-ramps etc.

+1

...and neither are any of the major DC sections in Dublin such as the N3 (parallel alternative routes available), N4 (inter-urban from west), R148 (main city access from west), R110 (major feeder to M50) or even much of the N11 (a major DC and QBC - there is already a parallel alternative road along many sections) the place for cycling.

Carawaystick

As this is a n28 thread, please outline the alternative route to cycle from Mahon Point to Carrigaline when the existing route is motorwayized?


Maybe people could outline the routes from the east end of the N3 to Clonee? Is it grade separated? are there crossing junctions? Do cyclists have to stop and waste energy compared to the National route?

What's the alternative to the R110? from say Crumlin Shopping centre to the Paddy Power shop or AIB just ENE of the red cow hotel?

What's the alternative to someone going to work on the Esso on the R148?

What's the major difference that you think it's grand to cycle north into Dublin from the N31/N11 junction?


If the alternative was better, people would use it. If the alternative is worse, the nra should provide a better one first, before looking to stop people cycling using national routes.
There is no reason Regional routes should not allow people cycling. People driving mechanically propelled vehicles have either been passed competent to drive or are under instruction to drive. there should be no issue with people cycling

marno21

Can we please start another thread if cycle routes are the topic of discussion. It is widely realised that multi lane grade seperated dual carraigeways are no place for cyclists, crossing on ramps and such..

If our dual carraigeways were suitable free for alls we wouldn't have motorway restrictions.

The alternative to the M28 will be the existing N28 from Ringaskiddy to Carrs Hill and what is now the R609 from Carrs Hill to Douglas.

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

Can we please start another thread if cycle routes are the topic of discussion. It is widely realised that multi lane grade seperated dual carraigeways are no place for cyclists, crossing on ramps and such..

If our dual carraigeways were suitable free for alls we wouldn't have motorway restrictions.

The alternative to the M28 will be the existing N28 from Ringaskiddy to Carrs Hill and what is now the R609 from Carrs Hill to Douglas.

Interesting advice, considering a few posts ago you brought up the exact same issue.

If cycling (or pedestrian) provision was inadequate within the context of the planned M28 scheme, where else should they discuss it? And before you say it, there is more to it than the actual motorway itself. Bridges or underpasses, diversions, there's plenty more than just keeping bikes off busy dual carriageways.

marno21

lucernarian wrote: »

Interesting advice, considering a few posts ago you brought up the exact same issue.

If cycling (or pedestrian) provision was inadequate within the context of the planned M28 scheme, where else should they discuss it? And before you say it, there is more to it than the actual motorway itself. Bridges or underpasses, diversions, there's plenty more than just keeping bikes off busy dual carriageways.

This thread is about the M28. A post was made a few posts back about alternative routes for cyclists on various roads in Dublin. That's why I asked to create an alternative thread for that, it's has no place whatsoever in the M28 thread.

You can either discuss it on the M28 thread, create your own thread.

AugustusMinimus

I'm interested in whether Jerry Buttimer or Deirdre Forde actually support their campaign given the group claims they have set up meetings with government officials for them.

Quite worrying if 2 Fine Gael members were actively trying to block economic progress in Cork.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'm interested in whether Jerry Buttimer or Deirdre Forde actually support their campaign given the group claims they have set up meetings with government officials for them.

Quite worrying if 2 Fine Gael members were actively trying to block economic progress in Cork.

Interesting point alright considering where the one in bold lives

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

This thread is about the M28. A post was made a few posts back about alternative routes for cyclists on various roads in Dublin. That's why I asked to create an alternative thread for that, it's has no place whatsoever in the M28 thread.

You can either discuss it on the M28 thread, create your own thread.

Well I think the basic citing of lack of design of a suitable route for cyclists and pedestrians is a reasonable anti-M28 point, is it not?

The M28 will presumably remove some people's ability to commute via an existing route, possibly the most viable route.

AugustusMinimus

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Well I think the basic citing of lack of design of a suitable route for cyclists and pedestrians is a reasonable anti-M28 point, is it not?

The M28 will presumably remove some people's ability to commute via an existing route, possibly the most viable route.

The piece of the N28 going through Douglas has only existed since the mid 90s. Pedestrians and cyclists managed before that, why can't they now.

I don't think I've ever seen a cyclist on the part between Bloomfield and Carr's Hill and I drive this twice per day.

There are a myriad of alternative routes from Mahon to Carrigaline. One alone is using the greenway to Harty's Quay, up Clarke's Hill and then proceeding along the L6477 until it's junction with the old N28.

If anything, the new M28 will make cycling along the old N28 much safer. It's lethal at the moment.

Carawaystick

If anything a new grade separated cycle route from Cork to Carrigaline; and from Carrigaline to the employment centres at Ringaskiddy will make cycling much safer and faster than the existing or alternative routes, which were not designed to facilitate safe efficient cycling.

AugustusMinimus

Carawaystick wrote: »

If anything a new grade separated cycle route from Cork to Carrigaline; and from Carrigaline to the employment centres at Ringaskiddy will make cycling much safer and faster than the existing or alternative routes, which were not designed to facilitate safe efficient cycling.

I doubt it would actually cost that much to construct a greenway which would run from Carrigaline to Douglas when the M28 is being built.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I doubt it would actually cost that much to construct a greenway which would run from Carrigaline to Douglas when the M28 is being built.

This was my thought tbh.

mikeym

Whats the alternative so?

A congested Carrs Hill?

A congested Bloomfield Interchange?

The M28 cant be re-routed and these people need to accept this.

AugustusMinimus

mikeym wrote: »

Whats the alternative so?

A congested Carrs Hill?

A congested Bloomfield Interchange?

The M28 cant be re-routed and these people need to accept this.

After constant prodding, they eventually stated that the route should run from the Bandon Road Roundabout, up the N71 and a new road all the way from Ballinhassig all the way to Ringaskiddy.

This of course has problems everywhere.

- Bandon roundabout not capable of traffic levels
- Much long route involving way more land take.
- Very difficult terrain from Ballinhassig to Ringaskiddy
- Will not really help traffic at all as most car will still use the old N28

In effect, they don't really care about the issues at hand. They just want this road not to be in their back yard. They claim destruction of some picturesque valley yet have no issue with destruction of many times more valley in Ballinhassig.

mikeym

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

After constant prodding, they eventually stated that the route should run from the Bandon Road Roundabout, up the N71 and a new road all the way from Ballinhassig all the way to Ringaskiddy.

This of course has problems everywhere.

- Bandon roundabout not capable of traffic levels
- Much long route involving way more land take.
- Very difficult terrain from Ballinhassig to Ringaskiddy
- Will not really help traffic at all as most car will still use the old N28

In effect, they don't really care about the issues at hand. They just want this road not to be in their back yard. They claim destruction of some picturesque valley yet have no issue with destruction of many times more valley in Ballinhassig.

Ballinhassig to Ringaskiddy is a complete non runner and it would cost more.

Some of these protesters seem to have connections in high places and I wouldnt be surprised if they managed to delay the M28 for another Ten years.

AugustusMinimus

mikeym wrote: »

Ballinhassig to Ringaskiddy is a complete non runner and it would cost more.

Some of these protesters seem to have connections in high places and I wouldnt be surprised if they managed to delay the M28 for another Ten years.

Would be utter madness.

This group will have to show some real protestations though with An Bord Pleannala. Not made up ones just because the road is close to their €1m mansions.

Leonard Hofstadter

Ignoring the daftness of what they're after, is there any danger that they might get their way? It would be devastating for the city if a few busybodies were allowed impact on the future development (especially when there is EU money to do some of it), we've seen what's happened in Galway where we're still talking about doing the city bypass when in reality it should have been done at least a decade ago.

KCAccidental

A COUNTY councillor has raised her “serious concerns” about noise pollution should the N28 upgrade go ahead.

Fine Gael representative Deirdre Forde said that while the proposed multimillion euro upgrade of the Cork to Ringaskiddy road is welcome, resulting higher levels of noise would almost certainly be a discomfort to residents near the road once the upgrade is completed.
She called for the county council to add a provision for a noise abatement fund.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/councillor-calls-noise-abatement-fund-road/2577678/


I despair at public representatives at times. It takes literally 3 minutes of research to find out that the M28 will receive sound barriers and resurfacing as a result of the upgrade.

I guess not kicking up a fuss wouldn't satisfy the nimbys in her electorate

cc

KCAccidental wrote: »

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/councillor-calls-noise-abatement-fund-road/2577678/


I despair at public representatives at times. It takes literally 3 minutes of research to find out that the M28 will receive sound barriers and resurfacing as a result of the upgrade.

I guess not kicking up a fuss wouldn't satisfy the nimbys in her electorate

It's fine, if that's the quality of their objections leave them off, will speed things along.

marno21

KCAccidental wrote: »

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/councillor-calls-noise-abatement-fund-road/2577678/


I despair at public representatives at times. It takes literally 3 minutes of research to find out that the M28 will receive sound barriers and resurfacing as a result of the upgrade.

I guess not kicking up a fuss wouldn't satisfy the nimbys in her electorate

You'd swear to god these people think there's a runway being built.

Do they not know that the existing road will be IMPROVED with noise reduction techniques like sound barriers and quieter surface ALONG WITH the removal of the queues in the morning adding to the noise?

The N21 realignment at Barna in Co. Limerick got large volumes of sound barriers, this definately will.

If anything the noise situation will IMPROVE with this scheme.

:?:

Nuf

Effective sound barriers guaranteed?
Ha, ha.
I've asked before, does anyone have a link for this?

The NIMBY acronym is much used here as a sneering put down . . therefore those who use must be IMBYs, right?

Leave your address and I'll sent a few hundred, trundling, pollution spitting HGVs past your house every day . . . . for EVER . .

Proud to defend my right to a life.

L1011

Nuf wrote: »

The NIMBY acronym is much used here as a sneering put down . . therefore those who use must be IMBYs, right?

Leave your address and I'll sent a few hundred, trundling, pollution spitting HGVs past your house every day . . . . for EVER . .

Proud to defend my right to a life.

Read through the thread - you'll note there are more than a few posters stating they do, in fact, live beside high traffic roads.

Nuf

Yes, two posters said they lived near major roads. One mentioned 100m and 350m distance. If this road was to be that far from my house I'd be very pleased.

_Kaiser_

Nuf wrote: »

Yes, two posters said they lived near major roads. One mentioned 100m and 350m distance. If this road was to be that far from my house I'd be very pleased.

You could always move? Y'know, as people do when things change so that their current arrangements are no longer suitable - eg: relocating for work, or having to move further out because of rising rent costs etc

The reality is that it's not workable to hold up a key piece of infrastructure like this (and which is badly needed to address problems on the existing route) simply to satisfy the "rights" of a small group of residents whose only solution is in fact to "just move" it to someone else's backyard.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few as Mr Spock said, and never so true as in this instance.