Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Until such a time as it leaves, the British are eu citizens.

Yea true but Britain's views or wishes won't be a priority based on the reception she got at the EU meeting she attended.

steddyeddy

It should be noted by Brexiters that Wallonia, a small region of Belgium, blocked an EU trade deal with Canada.

This shows two things; that every part of the EU has power or control over the EU and that any part of the EU could block any deal the UK gets in the Brexit negotiations.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

It should be noted by Brexiters that Wallonia, a small region of Belgium, blocked an EU trade deal with Canada.

This shows two things; that every part of the EU has power or control over the EU and that any part of the EU could block any deal the UK gets in the Brexit negotiations.

It also shows exactly why it takes the eu so long to sign trade agreements. I believe the Canadian PM said that the eu will never be able to sign anything.

You have to wonder how long the Germans will put up with being dictated to by the smaller nations.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You have to wonder how long the Germans will put up with being dictated to by the smaller nations.

Certainly a different slant...usually it's people saying Germany running the show



But Germany will for a long while put up as it needs the smaller weaker economies epically within the euro to keep the value of the euro down....otherwise it's export based economy is in bother

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It also shows exactly why it takes the eu so long to sign trade agreements. I believe the Canadian PM said that the eu will never be able to sign anything.

You have to wonder how long the Germans will put up with being dictated to by the smaller nations.

It's the EU being dictated to, not Germany.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It also shows exactly why it takes the eu so long to sign trade agreements. I believe the Canadian PM said that the eu will never be able to sign anything.

You have to wonder how long the Germans will put up with being dictated to by the smaller nations.

It also shows how hard Brexit wil be by the way.

steddyeddy

I was watching Question Time last night and the audience seem to be getting more nationalistic. A Polish woman complained that she felt unwelcome in this country after Brexit, only to be booed.

Shouts of "this is Great Britain" ect. I don't little Britainers have lost deluaions of grandeur since the imperial days.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

It also shows how hard Brexit wil be by the way.

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

A market the size of Britain on it's own will be doing what it is told by the big boys (which it needs). Might be able to bamboozle Trinidad or Jamaica.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

Surly Scotland in a break up of the UK could use the same arguments?

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

And every trade deal is decided by the bigger economy. The UK won't be able to negotiate to suit their needs over the EU's. It's by far the smaller economy.

Sand

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

So could Ireland negotiate a trade deal with the UK that suits Ireland's own needs entirely? Or would the UK have some needs of its own and the economic and diplomatic power to enforce them over Ireland's needs with Ireland having to take what was on offer or feck off? Is the UK going to get a better deal from the US, or China or India separate to the EU, when the EU has far more to bargain with and the UK can and has been successful in directing that bargaining? Probably not. Already the UK is finding out that it cant negotiate with the EU as an equal - an economy of 60 million versus an economy of 450 million is not quite David vs. Goliath, but its definitely one way traffic.

The thing that gets me about the UK/Brexit argument is the paradoxical lack of confidence expressed by the Brexiteers in the UK. The UK is (supposedly) unable to influence the EU, unable to play the game and work the levers of power to direct EU policy in its favour - but somehow its going to turn into a diplomatic powerhouse dictating terms to the EU, the US, BRICs etc. If the UK was as confident in itself as the Brexiteers claim to be then why would they shirk the influence the EU offers? Ultimately at some point people do band together in artificial communities called nations, or unions to achieve more together than they can apart. The UK is an example of a historically imposed union with a queue to leave, the EU is voluntary union with a queue to join, but each achieves more together than broken into their component parts even if its involves awkward compromises and bemusing traditions.

Ted_YNWA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

One of the more "sensible" arguments the leave campaign came out with was precisely this scenario. Every deal the eu does is effectively a compromise to suit all members whereas one state can negotiate entirely to suit their own needs.

And the UK is in that very position being an outside party trying to negotiate with the EU with compromises needing to be arranged.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will live on

Ulster is a province of Ireland. Stop trying to confuse the northeast of Ireland, that's currently a dependency of England's, with an ancient Irish province.

we have got through many things in our history.

Who is we?

Brexit will be the best thing to have happened to the province since William of Orange tied his horse next to Scarva tree.

The best thing to happen in the northeast was the British putting up the barricades at Drumcree - it was the swansong of unionism and orangeism.

Capt'n Midnight

Imagine if you will a situation where the UK regional assemblies had powers to veto the deal.

Everyone's counting on England to ignore immigration despite it being one of the key issues.


But they are forgetting that all the other countries have veto's too.



Wales demanding that Welsh be accepted as an EU language.

Northern Ireland assembly deadlocked between unionists and semi-sane people. One side wanting Ulster Scots to be an EU language and funding for creationism in schools and something about Vatican II.

And then you find out that Somerset has a vote too , wait when did that happen ? , and they don't give a crap about the EU they just want to humiliate Cornwall for something that happened during the War of the Roses. Unless they get a hefty bribe from London which you know would drive the Welsh to start burning English holiday homes again



And Scotland refusing until they got control of oil revenue. All. Of. It.



Because that's how it's going to work from the other side. LOTS of people will be tempted to try a little blackmail and every politician has a shopping list.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A market the size of Britain on it's own will be doing what it is told by the big boys (which it needs). Might be able to bamboozle Trinidad or Jamaica.

The big boys being?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The big boys being?

India, Japan, Australia, China etc

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The big boys being?

The EU and anyone with an economy bigger than theirs.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

India, Japan, Australia, China etc

Australia? Really?

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

The EU and anyone with an economy bigger than theirs.

So three then

Junkyard Tom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So three then

The UK scrapes into the top 10 economies in terms of GDP (PPP) and Exports, with countries like Germany exporting three times more.

Fratton Fred

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The UK scrapes into the top 10 economies in terms of GDP (PPP) and Exports, with countries like Germany exporting three times more.

So what are you trying to show, other than Australia (described as a big boy above) and Canada (who the eu is desperately trying to do a deal with) are 19th and 16th respectively?

Junkyard Tom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what are you trying to show, other than Australia (described as a big boy above) and Canada (who the eu is desperately trying to do a deal with) are 19th and 16th respectively?

Think of it in boxing weight division terms.

China, USA, EU are heavyweights.

India is a cruiserweight.

Japan, Germany, Russia, Indonesia and Brazil are light heavyweights.

The UK and France are super middleweights.

Italy and Mexico are middleweights.

The UK needs to understand that it's in the middleweight category and can not expect to push around the heavyweights.

130Kph

So let’s face it. This is now the de facto provo Brexit thread :eek::eek:

There always has to be a parallel ecosystem for provo knuckle-draggers for most big issues.

Apologies to the vast majority of contributors here, of course, to whom this doesn’t apply (innocents caught in the cross-fire, as it were).

Junkyard Tom

130Kph wrote: »

So let’s face it. This is now the de facto provo Brexit thread :eek::eek:

There always has to be a parallel ecosystem for provo knuckle-draggers for most big issues.

Apologies to the vast majority of contributors here, of course, to whom this doesn’t apply (innocents caught in the cross-fire, as it were).

I think you might be posting from the 1980's, we've all moved on from those times, maybe you should join us.

maryishere

I remember a lot of people in Australia a few decades ago being disappointed with the UK for the UK turning their back on them and developing strong ties with the EC countries and imposing tariffs on goods imported from the likes of Australia, New Zealand etc ...which are almost blood relations in a way to the UK. Now the likes of the UK and Oz and New Zealand and Singapore etc can make agreements to trade more easily with each other ...easier than the EU can trade anyway. New opportunities beckon. Australian wine, New Zealand lamb etc

Interesting to note that when the Australians come across ships full of illegial migrants on the high seas, they do not rescue them and bring them to their own ( Oz ) mainland. Contrast that with our own navy ships who even today rescued and will land about 400 migrants in Italy....as opposed to sending them back to Africa or bringing them to Cobh. Unlike Merkel, their p.m. did not invite a million in last winter.

Grayson

maryishere wrote: »

I remember a lot of people in Australia a few decades ago being disappointed with the UK for the UK turning their back on them and developing strong ties with the EC countries and imposing tariffs on goods imported from the likes of Australia, New Zealand etc ...which are almost blood relations in a way to the UK. Now the likes of the UK and Oz and New Zealand and Singapore etc can make agreements to trade more easily with each other ...easier than the EU can trade anyway. New opportunities beckon. Australian wine, New Zealand lamb etc

Interesting to note that when the Australians come across ships full of illegial migrants on the high seas, they do not rescue them and bring them to their own ( Oz ) mainland. Contrast that with our own navy ships who even today rescued and will land about 400 migrants in Italy....as opposed to sending them back to Africa or bringing them to Cobh. Unlike Merkel, their p.m. did not invite a million in last winter.

Australia lock them up in Nauru where they abuse them.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/aug/10/the-nauru-files-2000-leaked-reports-reveal-scale-of-abuse-of-children-in-australian-offshore-detention

maryishere

Grayson wrote: »

Australia lock them up in Nauru where they abuse them.

Which is why a relatively high percentage of the migrants to Australia have been Irish. Would you prefer it if the muslim population of Australia increased by 11.5 million like it has in Europe? There are 260 million people next door to Australia living in Indonesia. Their nominal gdp per head is only 3400 dollars per year. Would you like it if half of those people settled in Australia?

maryishere

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Think of it in boxing weight division terms.

China, USA, EU are heavyweights.

India is a cruiserweight.

Japan, Germany, Russia, Indonesia and Brazil are light heavyweights.

The UK and France are super middleweights.

Italy and Mexico are middleweights.

The UK needs to understand that it's in the middleweight category and can not expect to push around the heavyweights.

Indonesia are light heavyweights and the UK is less? lol

According to Wiki, The UK has the 5th biggest economy in the world in terms of gdp and Indonesia is 16th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Charles Babbage

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think you might be posting from the 1980's, we've all moved on from those times, maybe you should join us.

Brexiteers want to put us back in the 80s.