Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

But Wes may have a point. Every cloud has some silver lining. At least we won't have to put up with the constant ill-informed whinging.

You mean about bailing out German bond holders to meet the demands of the eu?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Speaking of 'first languages'.
The overwhelming actual message coming from Europe is a very pronounced 'F You Britain if you think you can vote to leave and get to dictate anything'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-negotiator-talks-french-michel-barnier-negotiation-insists-eu-article-50-conducted-a7373556.html?cmpid=facebook-post#gallery

you (conveniently) missed this bit then

An EU spokeswoman stressed this was not an official line: "There is no language regime for the negotiations," she said.

2/10 must try harder

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean about bailing out German bond holders to meet the demands of the eu?

No. I mean the whinging that has been more or less constant since at least the early '80s.

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. I mean the whinging that has been more or less constant since at least the early '80s.

oh, about common defence policies, civil rights, harmonisation of corporation tax, those kind of things?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you can deflect as much as you like. any chance you could have a stab at answering the questions?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you (conveniently) missed this bit then



2/10 must try harder

Two things Fred;
1. I never said it was an 'official' line.
2. If you are able to pronounce that your perception is such then others can do the same. IE, like the poster you are challenging, YOU also cannot back up the claim you made about your 'friends/colleagues', 'all over Europe', so vast in number, apparently, that they are a significant indicator of a European wide feeling. It is possibly more likely they are just telling a UK fan something he wants to hear, for instance. Are they trying to sell you stuff by any chance? A wise man would be wary of anything a salesman/woman might tell you.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Two things Fred;
1. I never said it was an 'official' line.

you said this:

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Speaking of 'first languages'.
The overwhelming actual message coming from Europe is a very pronounced 'F You Britain if you think you can vote to leave and get to dictate anything'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-negotiator-talks-french-michel-barnier-negotiation-insists-eu-article-50-conducted-a7373556.html?cmpid=facebook-post#gallery

One person is reported to want to conduct negotiations in French. That is not overwhelming, in fact, the eu have denied this. your statement was quite clearly wrong.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

2. If you are able to pronounce that your perception is such then others can do the same. IE, like the poster you are challenging, YOU also cannot back up the claim you made about your 'friends/colleagues', 'all over Europe', so vast in number, apparently, that they are a significant indicator of a European wide feeling. It is possibly more likely they are just telling a UK fan something he wants to hear, for instance. Are they trying to sell you stuff by any chance? A wise man would be wary of anything a salesman/woman might tell you.

no is trying to sell me anything, these are colleagues based in various areas across the region.

Wes made a statement, I challenged several points in this using my own experience. I asked him to back this statement up. If it is based on a conversation he has had with people from different countries across europe, then fine, we at least know this is an unsubstantiated claim. I am willing to admit mine is, but i thought I had explained where this information came form and the conclusion would be that it is heresay.

Wes, like you, has managed to avoid answering the question though. What unique opt outs does the UK have?

any chance you could answer this?

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh, about common defence policies, civil rights, harmonisation of corporation tax, those kind of things?

Civil rights is a bad thing¿

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you said this:



One person is reported to want to conduct negotiations in French. That is not overwhelming, in fact, the eu have denied this. your statement was quite clearly wrong.

Add it to all the other stuff being said by Tusk, Juncker, Hollande etc and I think you can say the 'overwhelming message' is bleak for the UK's prospects of getting the deal they want.

no is trying to sell me anything, these are colleagues based in various areas across the region.

Wes made a statement, I challenged several points in this using my own experience. I asked him to back this statement up. If it is based on a conversation he has had with people from different countries across europe, then fine, we at least know this is an unsubstantiated claim. I am willing to admit mine is, but i thought I had explained where this information came form and the conclusion would be that it is heresay.

Wes, like you, has managed to avoid answering the question though. What unique opt outs does the UK have?

any chance you could answer this?

I didn't say they had 'unique opt outs.

Thankfully you have dropped the demands to see proof of something that was patently just an expression of a perception, something you casually did (expressed an unsubstaniated claim) as you demanded figures/back up.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

I have to say it's bizarre as an Irishman this side of the Irish Sea to see the new found animosity towards Britain for deciding to leave the EU.

I also find it bizarre that people think that Brussels is more concerned about Ireland's interests than Britain is.

In any case I digress but it is noteworthy. I hadn't fully appreciated this.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

FrancieBrady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I have to say it's bizarre as an Irishman this side of the Irish Sea to see the new found animosity towards Britain for deciding to leave the EU.

I also find it bizarre that people think that Brussels are more concerned about Ireland's interests than Britain is.

In any case I digress but it is noteworthy. I hadn't fully appreciated this.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

Here we go. :rolleyes:

demfad

dinorebel wrote: »

If the EU sets conditions like the above the UK will exit with no deal after which the trade relationship automatically reverts to WTO rules.

As for no Brexit happening I would say the chances of that are practically zero.

What makes you say that there is zero chance? Have you no faith in the democratic process in the UK? If Brexit is shown to be clearly detrimental to the UK state then it is the parliaments DUTY to vote it down regardless of what teh advisory referendum says.


Spain has already set the condition that Spain will have joint sovereignty over Gibraltor as a precondition to a Brexit trade deal. The UK may simply not be able to negotiate a hard Brexit.

I dont think you understand how the WTO rules work. They have default rules but Britian is not a member of the WTO. The EU is.
For example the UK gives out 7 times the allowable farm subsidies under WTO rules.
That means that The UK will have to negotiate over several years with the WTO. This should be done in parallel with EU talks if allowable. The UK doesn't have the manpower for this. This is the cliff that they speak of.
Parliament wont agree to any negotiation which makes this situation likely.
Ergo soft Brexit or NO Brexit. The latter is better.

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

Civil rights is a bad thing¿

au contraire, they are a good thing. But for some reason, this was interpreted as legalising abortion in Ireland.

Do you not remember the Lisbon no campaign seemed to think that if we signed up to Lisbon, abortions and conscription would follow?

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Please give me an example (other then the After Hours uber patriots) of the lots of people who will be glad to see the back of the UK, because I deal extensively with people all over europe and other than the ones (particularly in the Netherlands and Denmark) who think the UK is doing the right thing, the rest are all very worried about the UK leaving the eu. Particularly in Germany who see the UK as a welcome voice of reason in a europe that is increasingly being run for the small countries, but paid for by the large ones.

Have you read the thread at all? It seems to me that you are choosing to ignore inconvenient truths for some odd reason:

Theresa May snubbed at EU dinner in Brussels

I am pretty sure that was discussed earlier on here, and you can read the thread for other examples.

Plenty of people have seen the hatred directed at foreigners in the UK:

Brexit caused lasting rise in hate crime, new figures show

The UK reputation will take a hit from that, whether you like it or not. Again, I note no equivalent targeting of British citizens in the EU.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm interested in the opts out the UK has as well, can you give me three examples of "Opt Outs" that are unique to the UK?

So your unaware of the UK opt outs? Interesting. You can spend 2 seconds and Google them yourself:

Europe ‘à la carte’: The whats and whys behind UK opt-outs

I find it rather odd, that you are unable to spend 30 seconds to Google that for yourself. Its a well established fact that the UK has more opt outs of the EU than anyone else, and its pretty clear as per Brexit that the UK, never really wanted to be a part of the EU, if we are to be honest.

demfad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ok, so here is what you said and lets see if you can back it up



Please give me an example (other then the After Hours uber patriots) of the lots of people who will be glad to see the back of the UK, because I deal extensively with people all over europe and other than the ones (particularly in the Netherlands and Denmark) who think the UK is doing the right thing, the rest are all very worried about the UK leaving the eu. Particularly in Germany who see the UK as a welcome voice of reason in a europe that is increasingly being run for the small countries, but paid for by the large ones.

I'm interested in the opts out the UK has as well, can you give me three examples of "Opt Outs" that are unique to the UK?

The English are not popular in Europe: they never were regardless of your hearsay. It was English policy to increase the number of member nations in the EU now they are complaining that the extra nations are taking power from the Big nations. This is a ludicrous claim when anyone with two eyes could see where the power lay (Germany and German Finance) during the great recession. That's apart from the now customary hypocrisy.

It is right and proper that smaller nations should have some checks on bigger nations. There is a deficit in this regard in the massively anglo-centric UK.
Only yesterday the leaders of the 3 smaller 'nations' all stated at the minimum that the UK needed to stay in the single market. Yet the English-only anti-immigrant political agenda won the day.

Banks are upping ship. Inflation is rising. Investment (based on single market membership) has clearly stalled. Even with the softest of Brexits a recession or worse is coming because of Thersa May and her 3 blind mice.

Brexiters are flushing their country down the sewer.

wes

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think you are confusing what Britain is asking for with what the EU wants to give it. Britain has never asked for trade barriers. The EU claim that trade barriers will be raised. That isn't necessarily the only option.

Brexit means trade barriers. Again, denying the obvious it just silly. Simply put a bespoke trade deal will take years to negotiate, and this will likely result in trade barriers. The UK being delusional in this regard, is not the fault of the EU.

solodeogloria wrote: »

It also wasn't necessarily the only option that the EU had to decline preparatory talks with May. This is what the EU wants to do and that's fine. It's got every right to play bloody hard with Britain but Britain has every right to argue for what the British public gave it. The EU can make that as hard or as soft as it likes but I believe it is in the EU's interests not to make it hard when nobody else is asking for it to be hard.

Again, you are ignored that fact that there are 2 parties involved. Its astonishing that you ignore the UK red lines and the EU red lines make there demands incompatible. Again, you blame the EU, on a UK decision and resulting consequences.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't think May can or will compromise on free movement. It was a key reason why leave won.

She dumped 350 million for the NHS pretty damn fast, another key reason Leave won. Amazing how you pick and choose the reasons people voted to leave.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Cameron asked the EU for reasonable concessions in immigration and was told no. If immigration isn't resolved as an issue in these negotiations the Conservatives are sunk. The people very clearly want to control their own borders. Which isn't a huge demand it is what most sovereign states the world over insist on. The EU didn't listen to Britain's concerns under Cameron but they do have to be centre stage now. Freedom of movement can't continue after Brexit.

Except that a single market requires free movement of people, otherwise its not a single market. Asking for more and more special treatment, gets old after a while. The UK had more opt outs than anyone else, and if you want out of the EU due to Xenophobia, then you lose the membership benefits. This is a choice made by the UK. The disingenuous blaming the EU that the UK has done for years, has gotten old at this point. You really need to own your own decisions and stop blaming everyone else at some point.

solodeogloria wrote: »

My belief is you'll end up with a limited trade deal on services and more control over immigration (not necessarily everything May may want).

Any deal, will take years to hammer out. Sure the Waloons may decide to torpedo any UK deal, or maybe the Spanish, or maybe the Poles may take exception to the hatred being directed at there citizens in the UK, and veto it.

solodeogloria wrote: »

As for the 350mn figure, it wasn't the best argued point because it is gross contribution. However after Brexit more of the 10 billion that the UK gives the EU will be in Britain's hand.

They had a big bus saying 350 million for the NHS. They dropped that promise immediately. Its amazing how some Brexit promises can't be compromised and others were dropped immediately.

solodeogloria wrote: »

My point is that despite what some people claim here Britain will not fall apart after Brexit. It will pay a price for sure, but it could benefit in years to come. I think Britain will be a more open trading country after Brexit. Not more closed. For Ireland it is in it's interests to argue for the most open trade arrangement with Britain. A veto on this will mean a 5% tariff on goods to the UK on top of a weak pound. There is no way that that is good for Ireland.

Brexit will work out badly for us not matter what, and thats not even mentioning the UK wrecking the Good Friday agreement, and the potential trouble in the North. With Brexit the UK has shown itself to be no friend of Ireland anymore, and we would be better to diversify our markets, and we can never be sure, when another temper tantrum may cause havoc to our economy.

As for Brexit working out for the UK? I doubt it will. Sure the UK won't fall a part or anything, but it will poorer for it, and we are already seeing a rather worrying rise in Xenophobia, which I will expect to increase, as food prices go up, and Farage and his ilk, blame foreigners on all the UKs problems.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Also here is an article in The Irish Times about the common corporate tax harmonisation that Ireland will have to stand up for itself on to keep corporate America happy.

Yes, and we will do so, like we have done for years. The EU over all has been very good for Ireland, and throwing the toys out of the pram is not the answer for our problems.

Fratton Fred

wes wrote: »

Have you read the thread at all? It seems to me that you are choosing to ignore inconvenient truths for some odd reason:

Theresa May snubbed at EU dinner in Brussels

I am pretty sure that was discussed earlier on here, and you can read the thread for other examples.

Plenty of people have seen the hatred directed at foreigners in the UK:

Brexit caused lasting rise in hate crime, new figures show

The UK reputation will take a hit from that, whether you like it or not. Again, I note no equivalent targeting of British citizens in the EU.

nice deflection. actually, no it wasn't it was just deflection.

wes wrote: »

So your unaware of the UK opt outs? Interesting. You can spend 2 seconds and Google them yourself:

Europe ‘à la carte’: The whats and whys behind UK opt-outs

I find it rather odd, that you are unable to spend 30 seconds to Google that for yourself. Its a well established fact that the UK has more opt outs of the EU than anyone else, and its pretty clear as per Brexit that the UK, never really wanted to be a part of the EU, if we are to be honest.

none of which are unique opt outs.

Ireland has also opted out of Schengen.

Denmark is opted out of the Euro

Ireland and Denmark have also opted out of Freedom, Security and Justice

Poland has also opted out of several areas in the Fundamental rights

Additionally, both Denmark and Ireland have special legal guarantees attached to the Lisbon treaty.

I'm surprised a quick google didn't tell you that.

Fratton Fred

demfad wrote: »

The English are not popular in Europe: they never were regardless of your hearsay. It was English policy to increase the number of member nations in the EU now they are complaining that the extra nations are taking power from the Big nations. This is a ludicrous claim when anyone with two eyes could see where the power lay (Germany and German Finance) during the great recession. That's apart from the now customary hypocrisy.

It is right and proper that smaller nations should have some checks on bigger nations. There is a deficit in this regard in the massively anglo-centric UK.
Only yesterday the leaders of the 3 smaller 'nations' all stated at the minimum that the UK needed to stay in the single market. Yet the English-only anti-immigrant political agenda won the day.

Banks are upping ship. Inflation is rising. Investment (based on single market membership) has clearly stalled. Even with the softest of Brexits a recession or worse is coming because of Thersa May and her 3 blind mice.

Brexiters are flushing their country down the sewer.

I think you are confused. England is not a member state of the eu.

demfad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think you are confused. England is not a member state of the eu.

I'm not confused at all. In yesterday's JMC (Joing Ministerial Council) the first ministers of all the smaller nations want at least guaranteed membership of the single market.
The mandate for immigration as a red line is therefore an English requirement. The current hard Brexit push is an English position NOT a British one.
This is why the UK is currently as disunited as it has been since the Irish war of independence or hadn't you noticed? May herself warned of a constitutional crises yesterday if the other leaders didnt row in behind her. They didn't row in behind her.
European politicians know the difference between Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May, Boris Johnson etc.
The Germans believe that Boris Johnson is a liar. They also remember that he compared the EU to a fascist state headed by Adolf Hitler. For May to have this man as a negotiator shows severe weakness or stupidity. One of many many such examples from this disastrous English administration.

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

nice deflection. actually, no it wasn't it was just deflection.

What deflection, exactly? You asked for proof. I provided it. Its stuff that has been mentioned in the thread several times. Its rather amusing that you simply deny anything that doesn't agree with your world view.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

none of which are unique opt outs.

The UK as per the link has more opt outs than anyone else, and as I posted earlier, there is an entire industry that publishes lies about the EU, to the point where the EU commission had to create a web site, to address these lies. I see no equivalent for any other country, that the European commission had to dedicate a website to address lies published by there media.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland has also opted out of Schengen.

Denmark is opted out of the Euro

Ireland and Denmark have also opted out of Freedom, Security and Justice

Poland has also opted out of several areas in the Fundamental rights

Additionally, both Denmark and Ireland have special legal guarantees attached to the Lisbon treaty.

I'm surprised a quick google didn't tell you that.

Yes, and the UK has more than any one else, and the UK media tells so many lies about the EU, the European Commission has to dedicate time to debunk the lies. Boris Johnson during the campaign used Xenophobia against Turks, becoming a member of the EU, to support his campaign and then turns around and says the UK will support there membership. The same goes for other recent members, all supported by the UK government, who then turn around and blame the EU.

Why exactly did you ask for proof if you already were aware of the UK opt outs? It seems to me that when you are asking for proof, you are being simply disingenuous in doing so. I won't be providing anymore links for you, due to this. You are clearly are aware of the facts, but choose to ignore them for some odd reason.

The UK refuses to take responsibility, and instead blames the EU and foreigners and we see a rise in hatred and Xenophobia, stirred up by Boris, Farage and there ilk. It will only get worse, and has been rising for month. The UK needs to realize, they are not a special snow flake.

OP, I think you answered your own question there. The worst possible consequence of Brexit is that guy returning to Ireland! Yikes! I once saw a photo of Bob Geldof in a punk/anarchist magazine under the headline "Now Paula Yates c-u+nt is in every magazine"

FrancieBrady

demfad wrote: »

I'm not confused at all. In yesterday's JMC (Joing Ministerial Council) the first ministers of all the smaller nations want at least guaranteed membership of the single market.
The mandate for immigration as a red line is therefore an English requirement. The current hard Brexit push is an English position NOT a British one.
This is why the UK is currently as disunited as it has been since the Irish war of independence or hadn't you noticed? May herself warned of a constitutional crises yesterday if the other leaders didnt row in behind her. They didn't row in behind her.
European politicians know the difference between Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May, Boris Johnson etc.
The Germans believe that Boris Johnson is a liar. They also remember that he compared the EU to a fascist state headed by Adolf Hitler. For May to have this man as a negotiator shows severe weakness or stupidity. One of many many such examples from this disastrous English administration.

Or May doesn't care about the UK surviving. Maybe she wants a 'go it alone' England?
Break the Union but don't be seen to be the person doing it, make it impossible for others to remain.

Boom_Bap

Brexit threadz merged yo.

catbear

Its funny, I've three posters on my ignore list and they seem to take up half the current thread. Hard brexit with no lube it is so!

Boom_Bap

catbear wrote: »

Its funny, I've three posters on my ignore list and they seem to take up half the current thread. Hard brexit with no lube it is so!

I'd recommend more fibre in your diet.

demfad

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I have to say it's bizarre as an Irishman this side of the Irish Sea to see the new found animosity towards Britain for deciding to leave the EU.

I also find it bizarre that people think that Brussels is more concerned about Ireland's interests than Britain is.

In any case I digress but it is noteworthy. I hadn't fully appreciated this.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

The animosity is more towards the Brexiters and even more towards the sheisters who lied to them. We are heading for a shock close on what the UK will experience. Trade with our second biggest trading partner will be severely affected. The two economies of Ireland will be turned against each other again instead of growing the Island economy organically and efficently.

All this because a deep sense of latent racism and xenophobia was allowed to win the day. There is not one single economic argument or plan for Brexit that can stand any scrutiny. Not one. Can you name one?

Irish people have a right to be angry. As do British people. And English people. The latter two is most important. People here should not view the English in terms of the typical racist snot nosed Tory. There is a a majority under there who are decent informed people. I would support them in their efforts to persuade their felow citizens to overturn this madness.

demfad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or May doesn't care about the UK surviving. Maybe she wants a 'go it alone' England?
Break the Union but don't be seen to be the person doing it, make it impossible for others to remain.

The plan seems to be a negotiated free trade agreement. The Scottish independence vote is actually hard to win because of losing the English market. Although they would be right to do so as 60% trading with England represents a severs symptom of an anglo-centric UK. That said it also represents a big short term shock. The UK negotiatiosn could take 7 years. Could Scotland get into the EU in that time?

If the voters had known that Brexit was coming down the line surely the independence referendum would have easily carried 2 years ago.

Dyr

"We will brexit them on the beaches, and in the high streets and farms. We shall brexit hard in France, and with unfounded confidence and delusion in the airports. We will isolate our island, whatever the cost may. We will brexit hard to the end, we will never surrender"

FA Hayek

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

He pushed Brexit over the line with his last minute intervention on the Thames

Yes, if you can encapsulate the Brexit debate in one image that would be it.
Multi millionaire pop star lecturing the plebs on how horrible and bad they all are.

People like Bob and his ilk still do not get it that they have zero in common with the ordinary man on the street and they have become the embodiment of the establishment that in their teens they tried to rebel against.

solodeogloria

wes wrote: »

Brexit means trade barriers. Again, denying the obvious it just silly. Simply put a bespoke trade deal will take years to negotiate, and this will likely result in trade barriers. The UK being delusional in this regard, is not the fault of the EU.

Good afternoon!

My point is not necessarily. That depends on the type of arrangement that the EU want to argue for. My point is that Britain hasn't asked for trade tariffs with the EU and it isn't proposing this. Of course these things will take years to negotiate. An interim agreement could be helpful while these matters are being discussed.

wes wrote: »

Again, you are ignored that fact that there are 2 parties involved. Its astonishing that you ignore the UK red lines and the EU red lines make there demands incompatible. Again, you blame the EU, on a UK decision and resulting consequences.

Not at all. It's reasonable to do a post mortem on what happened. Why wasn't Cameron's deal acceptable to the British public? They thought it was too little, too late. They were hoping Cameron would come back with more.

The referendum was won on immigration and taking control of British law. The poll numbers actually started to go Leave's way when immigration was discussed.

wes wrote: »

She dumped 350 million for the NHS pretty damn fast, another key reason Leave won. Amazing how you pick and choose the reasons people voted to leave.

I don't think it was their best argued point but the argument was that they would gain control of that money to use on things like the NHS. It was never stated that all would go to the NHS. The reality is that Hammond will need to use this money to pay the subsidies that the UK will lose and then potentially some of the rest will go to the NHS.

wes wrote: »

Except that a single market requires free movement of people, otherwise its not a single market. Asking for more and more special treatment, gets old after a while. The UK had more opt outs than anyone else, and if you want out of the EU due to Xenophobia, then you lose the membership benefits. This is a choice made by the UK. The disingenuous blaming the EU that the UK has done for years, has gotten old at this point. You really need to own your own decisions and stop blaming everyone else at some point.

That isn't true.

South Korea has single market access with a free trade deal and doesn't have free movement.

Also when you say this. What you mean is that this is what the EU will argue. This is what Juncker, Tusk and Schulz are claiming is a red line. May says free movement and sovereignty of law are her red lines.

OK - claiming that the 4 freedoms insistence is anything but a negotiating position at this point is premature.

wes wrote: »

Any deal, will take years to hammer out. Sure the Waloons may decide to torpedo any UK deal, or maybe the Spanish, or maybe the Poles may take exception to the hatred being directed at there citizens in the UK, and veto it.

Claims of racist violence are over exaggerated. Most people deplore actions like in Harlow recently. Most Leave people do too. Most British people are clear that bigotry has no place here.

wes wrote: »

They had a big bus saying 350 million for the NHS. They dropped that promise immediately. Its amazing how some Brexit promises can't be compromised and others were dropped immediately.

See what I've said above about the 350 million and in previous posts.

wes wrote: »

Brexit will work out badly for us not matter what, and thats not even mentioning the UK wrecking the Good Friday agreement, and the potential trouble in the North. With Brexit the UK has shown itself to be no friend of Ireland anymore, and we would be better to diversify our markets, and we can never be sure, when another temper tantrum may cause havoc to our economy.

I disagree. The UK are partners with Ireland. They care a lot more about Irish issues than the EU do. There's discussion about the nature of the border and it will be raised in the negotiation as a major issue. It's worrying to see so many people forget the work that Britain and Ireland have both done in recent years. The UK is looking for the best arrangement to keep trading with Ireland. It is up to the EU to consider that case.

wes wrote: »

As for Brexit working out for the UK? I doubt it will. Sure the UK won't fall a part or anything, but it will poorer for it, and we are already seeing a rather worrying rise in Xenophobia, which I will expect to increase, as food prices go up, and Farage and his ilk, blame foreigners on all the UKs problems.

As a foreigner in the UK I've decided to stake my confidence here. I'm confident that the UK will be an outward looking country now and into the future.

People here claiming Britain needs to grow up need to see it another way. Acknowledging that a relationship isn't working for either them and the EU is a sign of maturity. Hopefully a more appropriate relationship will be formed where the UK are still close partners. Then they will be able to form new trade deals with the wider world. I'm very hopeful.

wes wrote: »

Yes, and we will do so, like we have done for years. The EU over all has been very good for Ireland, and throwing the toys out of the pram is not the answer for our problems.

My point is things will be harder without Britain at the table arguing from the same corner.

I don't think the UK have thrown anything out of the pram. The EU hasn't been working for them. Their political culture is less technocratic than mainland Europe. As I said I voted remain (as a pragmatic Eurocritical person looking for reform) in June. But the people have now spoken and the best port of call is to seek the best Brexit possible. It isn't working for Britain or the other countries to have the UK in the EU. Therefore we should look for the best divorce we can.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

steddyeddy

English-Scots relations might be damaged by this as May is rejecting Sturgeon's request of a light Brexit for Scotland. From the Telegraph. It should be noted that elements in Scotland and the north of the island want independence no matter what. May better hope that neither of those countries become worse off financially, which is likely to happen. Especially NI. NI relies on subsidies From England and EU money. NI will have to hope for the same subsidy from England as well as England to replace the EU money. It won't happen.

Theresa May rejects Nicola Sturgeon's demands for special Brexit deal for Scotland - as SNP leader insists 'full independence' is on the cards


Theresa May has offered to involve Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in regular formal talks on the Brexit process but she has ruled out allowing special deals for the devolved nations.

But Michael Russell, Scotland's Brexit minister, has warned that Nicola Sturgeon believes "full independence has got to be on the table".

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Nicola Sturgeon has been absolutely clear that we must keep all options open. It would range from independence and other options would be available too. Of course independence has to be an option. It would be ridiculous to say it shouldn't be. We have been put in a situation we didn't ask to be in."

Mr Russell said it would be a "strange world" if special access to the single market was secured for bankers, but not for Scotland, which voted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union on June 23.

Downing Street said Mrs May will tell the leaders of the devolved administrations concerned about a possible hard Brexit that final decisions about her approach had not yet been taken and "how the UK leaves the EU will not boil down to a binary choice".

Mrs May will come under pressure from Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, Welsh counterpart Carwyn Jones and Northern Ireland's leader Arlene Foster and her deputy Martin McGuinness at a meeting in Downing Street.

The devolved administrations are keen to secure continued participation in the single market and want to hold votes on Mrs May's approach before she triggers Article 50, formally beginning the Brexit process.

The Prime Minister has offered them a "direct line" to Brexit Secretary David Davis, who will chair a new forum bringing together representatives from Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff Bay and Stormont for regular talks on the situation.

The great union between us has been the cornerstone of our prosperity in the past - and it is absolutely vital to our success in the future
Theresa May
Mrs May is hosting the first meeting of the Joint Ministerial Council (JMC) since 2014 today.

Ahead of the talks, officials insisted she was "ready to listen to proposals" put forward by the first ministers about the Brexit process.

Mrs May said: "I am determined that as we make a success of our exit from the European Union, we in turn further strengthen our own enduring union.

"The great union between us has been the cornerstone of our prosperity in the past - and it is absolutely vital to our success in the future.

"The country is facing a negotiation of tremendous importance and it is imperative that the devolved administrations play their part in making it work.